Is a 30 cal big game rifle needed anymore?

[HighUintas]

I have my 30cal wildcat at the smith waiting to be fixed and have a new size die made. I've been having second thoughts on spending that money before it's too late and just ditching that cartridge in favor of a 223 or 6. Oh the agony of decisions

 

[KenLee]

Ive only ever owned 1 cartridge.
I'm on my 3rd 300wsm now and have no need to go to smaller caliber.
Although a 7mm-300wsm has peaked my interests.

If I could only have 2 it would be a 300wsm and a baby 7 (7mm-08)

 

[Macintosh]

@Article 4 , I hear what you are saying about using enough gun, but do realize there is more than one way to skin a cat, and both physics and terminal ballistics support both large and small bullets as effective for making big holes in critters. In multiple places you and others are making leaps from the papers you cited to support your views, info that is either misinterpreted and/or extrapolating to conclusions that arent reached in those papers. Equating energy in a projectile, with energy transferred to a target, while discounting variations in if or how that energy is transferred, is just one example. It may seem like a fresh perspective, but it more and more seems like the thread is a degree away at best from rehashing whats been beat to death here many, many, many (many) times already. I dont think rehashing this for what seems like the 17th time is going to somehow make bullets kill differently.

The truth is that a 30 cal has never been “needed”. The ubiquitous popularity and proven success of the 270 win for close to the past century, for all NA game, is proof enough of this to say that the answer to your post is unequivocally NO. The success on large game of the 6.5x55 is further proof. The fact that people are reliably and ethically killing big game with even smaller cartridges than those two is further proof—if a 30cal was a requirement (ie “needed”), this would not be happening…but it IS happening, has been for a long, long time, and Ive watched it happen quite a few times myself.

If energy is what you believe is necessary, keep doing that, Im sure it works well for you. Just dont make the mistake of thinking that a heavy hitter is “needed” if your only goal is to quickly and ethically kill an animal, or that science only supports the bigger=deader approach.

 

[RockAndSage]

SLAP ammunition flies at around 4000 fps and uses a tungsten penetrator which will likely create less damage to slipping through. Sort of like APDST in a tank.

Agree - but they do tend to drop the person hit, lights out, who then often get back up and run. I don't have first-person experience with this, but was told by a mentor, so take it for what it's worth. If it's the case, it's likely the hydrostatic shock is causing the initial KO, but it's brief. Penciling through with the 7.62 diameter tungsten penetrator, it's not actually transferring much energy right into a live target as it zips right through. Similar with M855.

I am not familiar with this notion of shearing....can you provide some background on that if possible?

The shearing is essentially the way the shockwave tears and shreds the tissue just beyond where the bullet itself is actually touching anything - it's what creates a significant amount of the permanent crush cavity in rifle rounds, less so with pistol. Woodleigh and Federal, along with Lehigh and a couple of others have engineered some bullets in the last decade or so which are apparently pretty good at directing that energy, causing deeper shredding and tearing through concentrated hydrostatic (hydrodynamic?) force.

Now how is any of this relevant to what caliber a guy should choose for a first hunting rifle. Probably not much....but when we talk about energy transfer as a part of killing, it is relevant to the caliber and to the size and speed of the projectile we would use to hunt with.

One approach to consider might be how modern scuba diving tables work - statistically derived depth and bottom-time limitations, rather than the purely mathematical calculations that came before. Here are the weakest cartridge/bullet combos that clearly evidence working consistently well, and here are the largest that a common shooter can consistently shoot well. Choose one in between that you're most capable with, and go.

 

[Bluefish]

^^^ There's a lot more truth to this than non-witnesses can really appreciate - and if I wanted to slap the crap out of everyone to that truth, to make people go google and youtube the daylights out of it to learn for themselves, it would have been hard to come up with a better way to do it than these exact words.

People don't realize how anemic .50 BMG velocities are - it's sub 2000fps at about 600 yards. And even a big, heavy FMJ is still an FMJ.

That’s not true at all of the Hornady A-max load. It’s not sub 2000 fps until over 1000 yards. They are not fast, usually 2600-2800 fps, but the A-max has a g1 over 1. Very little velocity lost compared to 6.5 or 30 cal. It’s also a 30+ lb rifle with a huge brake, not your typical backpack rifle.

 

[RockAndSage]

That’s not true at all of the Hornady A-max load. It’s not sub 2000 fps until over 1000 yards. They are not fast, usually 2600-2800 fps, but the A-max has a g1 over 1. Very little velocity lost compared to 6.5 or 30 cal. It’s also a 30+ lb rifle with a huge brake, not your typical backpack rifle.

I'm sure there are a number of loadings available that do better, but the subject was FMJ.

 

[Billy Goat]

The line is the biggest caliber that I own for hunting. Currently it is a 30 Nosler running 210 ABLR's. Why ABLRs? Cause it is the most accurate and fastest bonded projectile that my rifle likes. I generally prefer a bonded bullet for heavier game

JAMA did a study on 511 bodies sustaining gunshot wounds in 2018 and found quote " Shootings with larger-caliber handguns were more deadly but no more sustained or accurate than shootings with smaller-caliber handguns." Meaning in general words, Bigger bullets do more damage and are no less or more accurate than smaller calibers or if you like - Big bullets kill better.

You stated you wanted the biggest hole, then make an argument for bonded bullets, there's easier ways.


108 eldm at 2000 fps impact makes a bigger hole than the 168 ablr at 2200-2500 impact in my experience. Also eldm is more reliable in what it will do at impact in my somewhat limited experience.


I don't think handgun wounds compare to high velocity rifle wounds, wound channels are wound channels, but something that is leaving the barrel at a velocity that is usually lower than a minimum impact velocity of another bullet, hard to make an apples to apples comparison of how they create the damage.

 

[IDVortex]

What if everyone is wrong, and it's the powder that is actually what kills.

 

[Drenalin]

What if everyone is wrong, and it's the powder that is actually what kills.

Powder certainly has more to do with it than pressure/concussion at the butt end of the rifle.

 

[Billy Goat]

What if everyone is wrong, and it's the powder that is actually what kills.

Or the color of the tip?

Ultimate bullet.

 

[Reburn]

What if everyone is wrong, and it's the powder that is actually what kills.

You kill with you mind. You visalize the animal dropping when you pull the trigger. You dont even need bullets.

 

[IDVortex]

You kill with you mind. You visalize the animal dropping when you pull the trigger. You dont even need bullets.

Oh snap, I messed up this last weekend. I've got a dead bear that I never looked for.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Or the color of the tip?

Ultimate bullet.


View attachment 725552

Obviously for a 6.5 creedmoor

 

[Billy Goat]

 

[IDVortex]

Obviously for a 6.5 creedmoor

Hater.

 

[yeti12]

Let's play a game called guess the small 6mm, the 6.5, the 30 cal and the 30 cal magnum.

 

[roadrunner]

@Article 4 Equating energy in a projectile, with energy transferred to a target, while discounting variations in if or how that energy is transferred, is just one example.

If energy is what you believe is necessary, keep doing that, Im sure it works well for you. Just dont make the mistake of thinking that a heavy hitter is “needed” if your only goal is to quickly and ethically kill an animal, or that science only supports the bigger=deader approach.

Energy, and the way it behaves in  any target media, is exactly why smaller caliber bullets at higher velocities perform the way they do terminally. It is exactly why larger caliber bullets perform the way they do.

Energy, relative to the basic tenets to the simplest laws of motion, is undeniably and irrefutablly a key factor to terminal ballistics.

 

[Bluefish]

I don't think handgun wounds compare to high velocity rifle wounds, wound channels are wound channels, but something that is leaving the barrel at a velocity that is usually lower than a minimum impact velocity of another bullet, hard to make an apples to apples comparison of how they create the damage.

I agree, small and fast is not the same as big and slow. I started to use large (45) cal subsonics last year. Took two whitetail and the big slow bullets seemed to put the deer down faster. No idea why, but neither went far. The two years before I used 35 cal rifles and was successful, but the deer went further after being hit. Small sample size, still in progress with testing.

 

[Macintosh]

Energy, and the way it behaves in  any target media, is exactly why smaller caliber bullets at higher velocities perform the way they do terminally. It is exactly why larger caliber bullets perform the way they do.

Energy, relative to the basic tenets to the simplest laws of motion, is undeniably and irrefutablly a key factor to terminal ballistics.

I think you understand what I said.

 

[RobHazmat89]

A gel test is anecdotal? That’s an interesting take.

Humans aren't made out of gel. And if you think your skin can stretch as much and as as fast that gel did without bursting, you're in for a surprise lol