Interstate Fishtailing at 65 MPH in Snow

[IdahoElk]

Was heading out hunting yesterday morning in the dark. Driving on the interstate, going 60 or 65mph. There was a dusting of snow on the highway, like hundreds of times before - the tire tracks were clear, with snow in the passing lane and between the wheel lines. I drove for 10 or 15 minutes without incident on the interstate, after coming off the perpetually icy side roads from my house to civilization. I'm driving on a straight section of road and out of nowhere, the back end of the truck starts coming around on me. I swear that I'm going to fly off the road. I counter-steered and corrected the fish tail. Then it whipped back in the other direction - I was able to correct that one too. Holy crap, that was close was going through my head for two seconds after I got everything back under control and then the back end started to come around on me again. I went through the same counter-steering cycle and got it back under control. The second time wasn't as severe because I was going slower (probably 50 - didn't even have time to consciously slow down after the first instance) - it was still plenty to freak you out. It happened a third time half a mile down the road and I was probably going 40mph - this time it just made me mad.

Never experienced anything like this before - just starting to fishtail out of the blue going straight on the highway. Really freaked me out. I drove for a good bit with the four-ways on at low speed after that thinking somebody was going to crash there.

After I had a few minutes to recover from the adrenaline dump, I looked and had the truck in RWD. I had it set to AWD (not 4wd) just minutes before, but turned it off because the road had cleared up in civilization. The thought to turn it back into AWD on the interstate did not cross my mind in my sleep deprived state.

Anybody have this happen to them?

What caused it? Just hitting black ice? Would having it in AWD have helped my situation?

Hopefully those of you who have had similar experiences fared as well as I did - I'm lucky to not be in the hospital or truck shopping.

The dirt road to my house is a sheet of ice for 3 miles. I'm very used to the back end slipping around on the truck on this road - hit some washboards or potholes and it's enough to kick it loose. The trucks electronic system recognizes it right away, applies the brakes and stops the slide immediately. It even happens on the dirt road when moving at a decent speed (~30mph) over washboards/bumps in turns. 2007 Chevy Silverado.

Thanks!

I'd say black ice, happened to me with a 23' boat, scared the crap out of me, almost lost it and then I began to see semi's that had gone off the interstate, bad deal.

 

[Silveroddo]

I spend a few hundred hours a year plowing state highways, the main thing I've learned is you can't take anything for granted this time of year. Especially in the dark. Sounds like they got some snow overnight and roads hadn't been plowed. I dunno what they do for sanding/salting out there, I'm assuming they can't do much because its open country. If you've been having the temp swings we've been having this week your road temps are high, when it snows you get a little that sticks and melts, and refreezes. if it was zero out, it wouldn't melt, it would blow off and you'd probably have decent traction. We got called out earlier this week because temps rose overnight and caused a bunch of fog that then caused ice, which is a strange condition for MN in January that most people wouldn't expect.
I say all of this to emphasize that its winter, and you can't assume anything when it comes to road conditions, especially in the dark, after it snows, around sunrise (temp swings can cause frost) on bridge decks, etc, etc, etc.
Even if you have AWD, 4x4, Snow tires, etc, those things help, but they can cause a false sense of security as well. I wouldn't say you were going that fast or did anything dumb, but I'd guess you just got some real world experience with your local driving conditions that will influence your perceptions the next time around, and it doesn't even have to be your driving, its the broke college kid with banana skins for tires that doesn't know what you know about the area that loses it in front of you.
Slow down, have good tires, assume the roads are slick, and don't crowd the guy in front of you.
And if you're following the plow at night, turn your brights off, he'll appreciate it.

 

[Poser]

I spend a fair amount of time driving in some variable conditions as I do a lot of skiing this time of year. I’ve had the fishtail happen and get perpetually worse on packed snow/ice and eventually been thrown into a 180, crashing into the snowbank.

It’s almost always speed related. When conditions get sketchy, around 40 mph seems to be the optimal speed for control and reaction time, At least in the mountains. On straightaways, I’d say more like 50 mph. My vehicle is all time 4H/AWD unless I’m in 4low, in which case the traction control turns off.

 

[jimh406]

2007 Chevy Silverado.

AWD might have helped, but the only time I've had that happen was with a 2004 Chevy 2500 that had the Eaton G80 locker rear end. If you have that rear, that might be the issue. If one tire looses traction, it can cause the rear to lock automatically. That's a good thing a slower speed, but can help you get sideways at higher speeds.

Here's a better explanation of that rear. https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/ch...ntent/Pages/news/us/en/2015/apr/0427-g80.html

 

[sbaker0029]

I was on the gas when it happened - just maintaining cruising speed. BFG K02 tires with decent tread left.

I've had two sets of BFG KO2 tires on a F150, probably 140k total. From my experience they do great 98% of the time. That other 2% is in icey slushy conditions. The tread turns to an ice ball and they get slick.
Also like a previous mentioned post, if you truck has the automatic locker or limited slip it can kick in at the most in opportune time and start your rear end sliding.
Had this happen on an older F150 with limited slip in slushy conditions passing a semi that was doing 25mph. Was in 2wd when I pulled into the passing lane and as soon as I sped up one tire spun, the rear end locked and the other did as well sending me into a scenario like yours but at half the speed and next to a semi. I was able to engage 4wd rather quickly and it helped straighten things out.
Glad you made it through that safely, minus the pucker and heart rate increase.

 

[Seeknelk]

While I agree KO2s have decent winter traction, they don't even come close to a true snow/ice tire. True that if you have posi Trac or limited slip rear, it will fishtail easier.
I really can't believe how many jacked up or really any 4x4s I see trying to pull out at a stop light or intersection, spinning like crazy in two wheel. Running in four wheel isn't going to hurt a thing in slippery conditions especially down a highway.
But yeah, I've had some black ice, slapping the steering wheel, back and forth moments for sure.
Oh, and yes people, do the occasional brake check to feel the road. I've kept a few people from falling alseep that way but better than wrapped around a tree.

 

[MarlinMark]

"How does putting it in 4wd after you're already fish tailing top the fishtail? I certainly can see it stopping it from happening in the first place, but not so much the other way around. Accelerating while fishtailing to make the 4wd function seems like a very bad idea to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding."

More provided by power/torque. In slippery conditions 4wd always helps.... even if you are already going sideways.

 

[Dust Rider]

Currently have ten 60# sand bags over the real axle in the F350. Sand will stay in bed until march.

 

[49ereric]

Was heading out hunting yesterday morning in the dark. Driving on the interstate, going 60 or 65mph. There was a dusting of snow on the highway, like hundreds of times before - the tire tracks were clear, with snow in the passing lane and between the wheel lines. I drove for 10 or 15 minutes without incident on the interstate, after coming off the perpetually icy side roads from my house to civilization. I'm driving on a straight section of road and out of nowhere, the back end of the truck starts coming around on me. I swear that I'm going to fly off the road. I counter-steered and corrected the fish tail. Then it whipped back in the other direction - I was able to correct that one too. Holy crap, that was close was going through my head for two seconds after I got everything back under control and then the back end started to come around on me again. I went through the same counter-steering cycle and got it back under control. The second time wasn't as severe because I was going slower (probably 50 - didn't even have time to consciously slow down after the first instance) - it was still plenty to freak you out. It happened a third time half a mile down the road and I was probably going 40mph - this time it just made me mad.

Never experienced anything like this before - just starting to fishtail out of the blue going straight on the highway. Really freaked me out. I drove for a good bit with the four-ways on at low speed after that thinking somebody was going to crash there.

After I had a few minutes to recover from the adrenaline dump, I looked and had the truck in RWD. I had it set to AWD (not 4wd) just minutes before, but turned it off because the road had cleared up in civilization. The thought to turn it back into AWD on the interstate did not cross my mind in my sleep deprived state.

Anybody have this happen to them?

What caused it? Just hitting black ice? Would having it in AWD have helped my situation?

Hopefully those of you who have had similar experiences fared as well as I did - I'm lucky to not be in the hospital or truck shopping.

The dirt road to my house is a sheet of ice for 3 miles. I'm very used to the back end slipping around on the truck on this road - hit some washboards or potholes and it's enough to kick it loose. The trucks electronic system recognizes it right away, applies the brakes and stops the slide immediately. It even happens on the dirt road when moving at a decent speed (~30mph) over washboards/bumps in turns. 2007 Chevy Silverado.

Thanks!

A limited slip rear diff will always go around in circles when you loose traction.
lower tire psi helps. I drove an 09 Ford Focus thru countless storms road not plowed at times but dry snow and always made it to work or home and usually 200-260 miles trips. Woods here so you can see. Always lowered air pressure in the tires before it got bad and drove slow.

 

[Marbles]

I was off the gas instantly and threading the needle to pump the brakes as much as I could.

Breaks can make it worse. Your back tires are already broken free, so your front has more traction, meaning your front slows down and your back end does not and it tries to swing around the front.

If you just let off the gas, the front wheels going straight and rolling will have less resistance than the back tires sliding sideways, the result is the front will pull the rear back into line.

I was on the gas when it happened - just maintaining cruising speed. BFG K02 tires with decent tread left.

Like I said, it does not take much. It can also happen at slow speeds, so I would not say you where driving beyond the conditions. Snow rated all terrain gives very poor performance compared to a true snow tire.

There is no way that I would be able to locate the 4wd button going sideways down the interstate at 65 mph in the dark at 6am.

You don't. You recover then put it on 4x4.

How does putting it in 4wd after you're already fish tailing top the fishtail? I certainly can see it stopping it from happening in the first place, but not so much the other way around. Accelerating while fishtailing to make the 4wd function seems like a very bad idea to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Having fishtailed once indicates the conditions warrant 4x4, it is not to help you recover one in a fishtail, just to help prevent another one.

If I kept going straight in the fishtail, I would have been somewhere out on the prairie.

Momentum says your truck will continue in the direction it was going unless a force acts on it to change that direction. The overwhelming majority of your momentum is going in the direction you where traveling before the fishtail and if you stop applying force (gas or brakes) you will keep traveling in that direction.

Now, I have proper tires, but this is a stretch of road I drove at the speed limit of 60 (well it was BC, so if I remember correctly 100 kph really), the tractor trailers drove it at the same speed. I have put in thousands of miles in such conditions (1500 miles of this drive alone looked about the same).

 

[.204smokechaser]

Well I have way less experience driving than most of y’all, but have a few learning moments that made me a better winter driver in the Lower 48.

First one was in 2019. Let a guy pass me going up the Idaho side of Lolo Pass as It was snowing with a little bit of freezing rain. I was going 35 and he was on my ass. Couple miles ahead I see his tire tracks going off the road and right into the river. Stopped and I was super glad he wasn’t trapped in his truck. The next time I went up there wolf hunting, the temperature was below freezing and road appeared wet. Wasn’t wet from salt, was iced over.

Fall of 2020 I was working in eastern Oregon and was driving 395 south of Pendleton/Pilot Rock. 34 degrees was the air temp and I was going the speed limit. Hit black ice and did a 360 into the ditch. Next thing I know after I crawl out of the ditch in 4 low was I had a jackknifed semi coming at me. Barely missed being in a head on.


From that point forward, I usually go 5-10 miles an hour under the speed limit on highways and interstates between sunset and sunrise when the temperature on the truck says 35 or colder unless there hasn’t been weather for a while and the road is dry. I’m not one for having patience but, being first on scene of a few gnarly wrecks the last few years have just made me gain that.

Where I am at here in Idaho, the county roads and some state roads in the daytime shaded areas and along bodies of water seem to be iced over the majority of the time after sunset when the temp is 32 or below. I sometimes see cars ahead of me that freak out when they finally realize the road surface is black ice.

I drove a Ford Focus up to the Arctic Circle and down to Anchorage last winter and that made me gain some good winter driving skills.

 

[Poser]

Slightly off topic, but related enough. I regularly drive Wolf Creek pass this time of year and usually when I go there, it is storming because that’s what makes it a destination. Coming down the pass in my old truck, I’d just slide it into 2nd gear and cruise down the pass, never braking. In my V8 4runner, I can’t manually shift below 3rd gear without being in 4 low, but ~40 minutes of driving in 4 low at ~35 mph (due to the grade) seems like it would be right at the high end of 4Low speed. You think 4low at that speed is too much risk for damaging the transmission?

In 4H, 3rd gear, I have to brake more than I would like to, which would seem to put me closer to the realm of the Texans I’m cussing at for continually riding their brake down a steep grade on plowed snow with 20 feet of visibility in a line of cars who are all too close together.

 

[Skerhunter]

If the road is muddy or slick, just put it in 4x4. I learned at a young age if you wait until you need it you are already in trouble! It's also nice to have the control to dodge all of the people fish tailing around in 2wd.

 

[5MilesBack]

There is no way that I would be able to locate the 4wd button going sideways down the interstate at 65 mph in the dark at 6am.

How does putting it in 4wd after you're already fish tailing top the fishtail?

That's why I like a manual transfer shifter, an actual mechanical lever that throws it into 4wd immediately. But in my case I have to at least have the hubs locked in to start with. I was getting there eventually, but it was handling pretty well in 2wd up to the point of the fishtail. Dropping it into 4 wheel high pretty much straightens the truck back out on it's own, without even having to steer it back in line. You HAVE to practice this stuff.

 

[black dawg]

Road was probably slippery for awhile and didnt notice, SLIGHT incline or headwind , not sensitive enough with the throttle (to start letting off some). Just different conditions at that spot. Cruise control......?

See that same scenario crashing people and others many times this year, almost always were using cruise.

 

[black dawg]

And, it is all just part of learning to judge road conditions, lived here my whole life and am more cautious the older I get. Still get surprised sometimes.......

 

[Marbles]

And, it is all just part of learning to judge road conditions, lived here my whole life and am more cautious the older I get. Still get surprised sometimes.......

Agree, though just assuming the roads are slick and covered in ice and looking for proof of the opposite is a good starting point and much better than the other way around. For people who do not live where winter tires are practical, this means slow down. If you live in a spot that sees months of snow/ice it means get the proper bloody equipment.

If we get ice before my winter tires are on, I do not feel comfortable driving at the speed limit, lateral stability is too poor and stopping distance is too long. Empty parking lots are good places to get a feel for how your equipment handles the conditions.

 

[packer58]

That's why I like a manual transfer shifter, an actual mechanical lever that throws it into 4wd immediately. But in my case I have to at least have the hubs locked in to start with. I was getting there eventually, but it was handling pretty well in 2wd up to the point of the fishtail. Dropping it into 4 wheel high pretty much straightens the truck back out on it's own, without even having to steer it back in line. You HAVE to practice this stuff.

I would agree if your not already too far out of shape, but, with the hubs locked in the rear and front wheels have to be turning at "fairly" close to the same rate or it's almost impossible to throw the transfer case lever into 4 wheel drive, the gears won't mesh.

 

[gbflyer]

I guess a person can go as fast as they want on the ice in AWD or 4WD but you can’t stop.

 

[Shepman]

If it’s slick at all anymore I just throw it in 4wd but if it’s real good and icy it’s basically useless.