interesting read- strong or light?

[Akwoodchuck]

So, if you had 7 more lbs of lean muscle mass, weighed 147 lbs and your quads, hips, and back were twice as strong as they are now, mind you, with your spine incased by twice as much muscle as it has presently, you wouldn’t be able to cross the mountains as efficiently? You wouldn’t perceive your body as being more durable than it is now?

Because that exact outcome is very reasonably achievable in as little as 10 weeks of (proper) strength training.

No doubt...I have few muscle groups that couldn't use more meat, LOL!
....issue is how to maintain that, and balance it with having such a strenuous job...for example, today I'm humping bundles of shingles up the side of a house onto a steep pitched roof, in deep snow, with a windchill around zero...today. tomorrow, the next day, and into the foreseeable future...my wife, she hits the gym every day off and does miles and miles on the incline, and she usually smokes me on the trail....if I go to the gym, it's gonna be to use the hot tub...

 

[Fatcamp]

Even then, look at female Powerlifting world record holders such as Marisa Inda or Stef Cohen, and they look great. While certainly “big” by female standards, these are two of the strongest females in the world. Random chic going to the gym 3 days a week ain’t gonna get “too bulky” because she does some deadlifts and bench presses.

Marisa Inda (@marisainda) • Instagram photos and videos

instagram.com

Dr. Stefi Cohen, DPT (@steficohen) • Instagram photos and videos

instagram.com

Have you actually looked at those pictures? They are far past a little big. And 52 kg champ? That's 114#, far from the strongest in the world.

Now 90 kg, 90 kg prolly has some power.

 

[Poser]

Yeah, but if you weigh 114# and you squat 400#, you are both “light” and “strong”, are you not?

 

[Coach Chris]

"However, too much “normal” strength training will build a lot of muscle in places that don’t help me as a hunter. It’s great to have big biceps and a studly chest....."
This article is hilarious.
It's amazing how many tall, skinny (ectomorphs) endurance athletes think they have outstanding genetics for elite levels of hypertrophy development.

 

[Fatcamp]

Yeah, but if you weigh 114# and you squat 400#, you are both “light” and “strong”, are you not?

Well of course. No doubt Cohen is very strong for her size. Like, unbelievably so. I don't think most people can even fathom her accomplishments they are so unreal, but so are many others. My point was that she doesn't look a little big, and she is far from the strongest woman in the world.

Here's what the strongest woman in the world looks like.

 

[Poser]

Well of course. No doubt Cohen is very strong for her size. Like, unbelievably so. I don't think most people can even fathom her accomplishments they are so unreal, but so are many others. My point was that she doesn't look a little big, and she is far from the strongest woman in the world.

Here's what the strongest woman in the world looks like.

View attachment 157267

She’s a looker.

 

[Fatcamp]

She’s a looker.

Not a huge mystery as to why she doesn't get as much attention. I doubt she's climbing any mountains either, but if you need help pulling an engine she's your gal.

 

[5MilesBack]

Still though, I’m guessing you were lifting in the hypertrophy rep ranges.

I usually do reps of 5-8 with max weight and after 6-8 weeks and starting to see some stagnation I change it up to high reps (20-25) for 2-3 weeks and then take a week off and start over with the 5-8 reps again. That keeps my body happy and me less bored with the workouts. These days at 54 I just care about staying limber, joints healthy, and keeping the muscles in some form of working form.

 

[Poser]

Back to the discussion, somewhere in there, the author admitted that he has found it necessary to add some strength training in as he has gotten older. While I would agree that it becomes an increasingly important factor as you age as a means to fight inevitable deterioration and atrophy, if one possesses the introspection to make that concession in this debate (and really, it should not be a debate at all for a sport/pursuit as physically unskilled simple as hunting), then I’d expect one would be introspective enough to recognize how strength training would have benefited him when he was younger and could produce more linear results with a better recovery system and that this supplemental training would therefore contribute to an improved “aging athlete” scenario.

If one is a serious competitor in a “skinny” sport such as cycling or endurance races where being light is truly an attribute, then I get it. BUT, bear in mind that these athletes are often sacrificing their health to perform at the highest level the same way the big girl in the photo above is on the opposite end of the spectrum. On the athletic level, Hunting is such a “dumb” sport, that these aspects are irrelevant and there’s no need to sacrifice overall Heath and longevity just to go elk or sheep hunting. You don’t need to deep dive into some far end of the spectrum to be In Shape to go hunting and if you do because that far end happens to also be your hobby, it doesn’t mean that it is the best way, or even a healthy way to live functionally and pursue hunting as a hobby.

The most important thing in these conversations, however, is this (and this does not necessarily apply to the highest levels of endurance competitors, but that ain’t you and it also ain’t the author of this article, because not one person cares if he is 17 minutes slower on a 100km foot race because he has an extra 6 lbs of lean muscle mass):

How can you confidently say that you have fully realized your true aerobic potential if you have not, at least in some capacity, attempted to deliberately make your body stronger?

And that’s what I would ask the author quickly followed by a jab about KUIU’s founder having been a NFL linebacker who seemed to hunt sheep just fine.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

https://basecamp.kuiu.com/p/strong-or-light-by-greg-mchale/223232038/

His approach certainly seems to work for him and tough to argue with the guy's successes; I don't think he would be much of a slouch in the mountains

I still feel that an approach of being light AND strong, not OR, is the most likely to produce the best results

I know there are a few folks that feel strength training 4-5 times a week is a winning formula, with no need to worry about endurance work

And possibly (but I'm very skeptical) it is for some?

I think, as most things in life, balance is the key to most successes

Aerobic base is important and it takes a long, long time to develop a good aerobic base.
Time in terms of hours of working in one aerobic workout, months of training to build a good aerobic base.
Look at how marathoners train for endurance.

For me, I need a long-distance hike at least twice a week year long...(I am 63 years old, 6'4" 210 lbs)
I used to lift weights 5 days a week in my 20s and 30s but have changed over time to exclusively hiking either steep slopes with a weighted backpack to build strength, or twice a week very long (4-10 hours) hikes for endurance.

I know a sheep hunter in Fairbanks who has shot 26 rams in 26 years and his training regime was similar....no weight lifitng, but long endurance hikes at least twice a week, and hiking with a weighted pack on slopes.

 

[*zap*]

The information I have been looking at is that by properly training aerobic base with liss for longer durations @ 60-70% of max heart rate 3-4x a week and 1x a week @ 70-80% of max heart rate you will see improvements of your aerobic base within a few months and those improvements can continue for 10 years or more with continued training.
Raising aerobic base or AeT is probably the best thing anyone can do for their fitness, imo.
If you do this liss while fasted (early morning before eating) with little insulin in your bloodstream you also will be using body fat to fuel the activity but if you get your heart rate above your AeT you start using fuel stored in your body other than fat. Exercise shuts of insulin production so if you have smaller amounts of it and do not cross into using the other body stored fuel sources by elevating your heart rate you burn fat for fuel, the longer you exercise within those heart rate zones without insulin in your blood the more fat you burn as fuel and you improve your aerobic base at the same time. Obviously, if you do not want to loose body fat then do the exercise in a non fasted state and monitor how you feel after if your doing it fasted.
Its all a very interesting subject and I need to do more research/study on it so feel free to correct any errors I made in my statements.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about how to best improve aerobic base.

 

[P Carter]

The information I have been looking at is that by properly training aerobic base with liss for longer durations @ 60-70% of max heart rate 3-4x a week and 1x a week @ 70-80% of max heart rate you will see improvements of your aerobic base within a few months and those improvements can continue for 10 years or more with continued training.
Raising aerobic base or AeT is probably the best thing anyone can do for their fitness, imo.
If you do this liss while fasted (early morning before eating) with little insulin in your bloodstream you also will be using body fat to fuel the activity but if you get your heart rate above your AeT you start using fuel stored in your body other than fat. Exercise shuts of insulin production so if you have smaller amounts of it and do not cross into using the other body stored fuel sources by elevating your heart rate you burn fat for fuel, the longer you exercise within those heart rate zones without insulin in your blood the more fat you burn as fuel and you improve your aerobic base at the same time. Obviously, if you do not want to loose body fat then do the exercise in a non fasted state and monitor how you feel after if your doing it fasted.
Its all a very interesting subject and I need to do more research/study on it so feel free to correct any errors I made in my statements.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about how to best improve aerobic base.

Zap,

I think you’re largely right, with one tweak. I don’t think training in a fasted state (or solely at aerobic levels) really impacts fat levels on the body. The body of even the skinniest athlete stores 100s of thousands of calories in fat.As I understand it, the purpose of training to become “fat adapted” is to exercise and this develop that system for fueling. It doesn’t meaningfully impact a person’s body composition directly. Although of course burning more calories may...but that’s the same whether it’s burning calories aerobically or anaerobically. Stated another way, exercise at aerobic levels, particularly while fasted, will train the body to burn fat as fuel. But that is a fueling/body systems concept, not a fat loss/body composition concept. Unless I’m wrong, which is well within the range of possibilities!

 

[Coach Chris]

Fasted cardio

The Myth Of Cardio Before Breakfast Debunked!

We've all heard it before, the theory that doing cardio on an empty stomach after an overnight fast sends fat burning into overdrive. If only it were true.

www.bodybuilding.com

 

[*zap*]

That is interesting.

 

[P Carter]

If I read that correctly, the article is consistent with my statement—exercising fasted, aerobically, helps your body burn fat but that’s a concept related to fueling and body systems, NOT to weight loss or body composition. (Not trying time argue, just to understand. And I don’t think you were trying to contradict the prior post.) here’s the key quote: True, the research does show that fasted cardio can increase fat utilization during exercise compared to performing cardio in the fed state. Except this only occurs at very low levels of training intensity.

For what it’s worth, I do fasted running a few times a week, more out of laziness than anything. (8 miles before work and I don’t get up early enough to eat breakfast before.) it feels different than running fed and I’ve come to like the feeling—light, slow, but usually strong and clear-headed. Likely not significant in the big scheme. It it’s fun to experiment.

 

[*zap*]

I appreciate Coach Chris posting the article. It's good to have information and discussion/trying to understand different views advances knowledge.
On the other hand Mike Dolce is pretty adamant about fasted liss being good for burning extra body fat especially hard to get rid of fat that is gender specific. I like Dolce and think he is a pretty straight shooter. He also keeps pretty low body fat % year round with a few periods of very low % in a year so I think it may be worth a try while keeping in mind staying within zone 1 heart rate (liss). I will see in a few months if it works.
LISS is very low intensity. Low Intensity Steady State. For me that is 100-110 heart rate.

 

[Coach Chris]

Dolce's credibility is, to say the least, questionable. He has no actual science behind anything he does.
Brad Schoenfeld is a PhD professor and researcher who is the authority on hypertrophy and body composition.

 

[*zap*]

That is interesting.

This is from the article:
True, the research does show that fasted cardio can increase fat utilization during exercise compared to performing cardio in the fed state. Except this only occurs at very low levels of training intensity.

Dolce says that LISS, done fasted burns more fat. Low Intensity Steady State, he specifically talks about walking. So, what he says corresponds to the article. I still like Mike Dolce and think he is an upfront person. His nutritional advice has been very useful to me along with other things he talks about.

 

[5MilesBack]

I've never been much of a breakfast guy, it makes me nauseous to eat soon after getting up. Usually I'm ready for something 3+ hours after getting out of bed. But during elk season I'm burning something to lose a pound a day. All my calories are consumed from lunch to dinner.

 

[Poser]

I’ve tried it various ways over the years and I need carbs if I am going to perform. Whether it’s a gym session, skinning up a mountain, chasing elk around, Mtn biking, or whatever: big bowl of steel cut oats and as much of it as I can force down. Aerobic state for under an hour isn’t a issue, but going anaerobic without carbs for fuel is bullshit.