Interesting Facebook post

[Sapcut]

Ok…Why don’t most bow hunters use 650, 700, 750 grain arrows? Facts… Lighter arrows shed down range speed to a greater degree. Lighter arrows stop much quicker upon impact such as bone. So why are 700+ grains so uncommon among bow hunters?

 

[brocksw]

Ok…Why don’t most bow hunters use 650, 700, 750 grain arrows? Facts… Lighter arrows shed down range speed to a greater degree. Lighter arrows stop much quicker upon impact such as bone. So why are 700+ grains so uncommon among can't speak for "most bowhunters".

Ok…Why don’t most bow hunters use 650, 700, 750 grain arrows? Facts… Lighter arrows shed down range speed to a greater degree. Lighter arrows stop much quicker upon impact such as bone. So why are 700+ grains so uncommon among bow hunters?

The unit of measurement you're describing is called momentum.

I can't speak for "most bowhunters". But one of the biggest reasons I shy away from super heavy arrows is because they have a poor trajectory, which equates to being very unforgiving if your yardage is off. Finding a balance between weight and speed means I get good penetratiom and if I'm off a couple yards when ranging, or the critter takes a step or two after I'm at full draw,, my trajectory is flat enough to give me some wiggle room. A heavy arrow is not a fix all. Does it offer advantages? Most certainly it does. But based on on context of this thread and your original, blanket statement comment, I would urge archers to practice, practice, and practice some more. Not to go build heavy arrows to avoid range time or with the thought that it's now acceptable to punch a 900 lb bull in the shoulder because they have a heavy arrow.

You can shoot a 1000 gr arrow...but put it in the rear end of an elk/deer and its lethality will be no greater than a light arrow. I repeat, accuracy trumps everything. I don't give a chit if you shoot an 80 lb bow with iron wills and 500 gr arrows, a bad shot is a bad shot. Blowing through the guts because you have a heavy arrow is no better than penetrating half an arrow length into the guts with a lighter arrow.

 

[Sapcut]

The unit of measurement you're describing is called momentum.

Well aware.

Not to go build heavy arrows to avoid range time or with the thought that it's now acceptable to punch a 900 lb bull in the shoulder because they have a heavy arrow.

Tallking about a blanket statement to the extreme. Do you really think anyone does that? I am now nor ever implying that.

I repeat, accuracy trumps everything. I don't give a chit if you shoot an 80 lb bow with iron wills and 500 gr arrows, a bad shot is a bad shot. Blowing through the guts because you have a heavy arrow is no better than penetrating half an arrow length into the guts with a lighter arrow.

Of course accuracy is #1 in your back yard at a stationary target. But I know and admit, unlike lots of others, that live animals move and actual "bad" shot placement can certainly be beyond our control. What then? Just say a 350 grainer is the same as a 650 grainer upon impact? Well the truth is it isn't. You say the heavier arrow has worse trajectory? Depends on the distance. The lighter arrow has a bad trajectory as well, just at a longer distance. Which proves my original point that most bowhunters I have seen, talked to, hunted with, etc are more concerned with reaching the animal at a distance than increasing their chances of penetrating the animal. And the chances are also very high the broadheads found in the elk as the OP mentioned are from light arrows that, yes, did reach the animal target.

 

[Billy Goat]

Ok…Why don’t most bow hunters use 650, 700, 750 grain arrows? Facts… Lighter arrows shed down range speed to a greater degree. Lighter arrows stop much quicker upon impact such as bone. So why are 700+ grains so uncommon among bow hunters?

Time of flight, yardage needing to be exact.



Little to gain from 700 over 500, fair amount to loose.

My 450 grain arrow does shed FPS faster, but at 65 yards it's still going faster than a 560 grain arrow at the same distance.

Here's something, say the time of flight is 5/8 of a second for one arrow, and 3/4 second for another, made up numbers, but just trying to make a point. The animals reaction time is a 1/2 second. One arrow is going to make in impact with twice the animal reaction than the other, even tho the time frame isn't that much difference.

I'm in the camp of shoot enough, but it gets detrimental pretty quickly. Get drawn back and let that animal move 5 yards, 275-280 fps is a lot easier on that gap than 240-250 fps.

 

[Sapcut]

My 450 grain arrow does shed FPS faster, but at 65 yards it's still going faster than a 560 grain arrow at the same distance.

That is my entire point. Just stating the fact of what most bow shooters desire to do…. Reach an animal at a long distance away with the light arrow, that allows that to happen, and choosing to ignore the penetration benefits of the heavier arrow. So basically limiting the shot distance to a satisfactory trajectory with a 700 grain arrow and seeing the penetration advantages is not what most bow shooters care to do. And I say the chances are great that is why broadheads are found in elk and other animals as the OP posted.

 

[Billy Goat]

That is my entire point. Just stating the fact of what most bow shooters desire to do…. Reach an animal at a long distance away with the light arrow, that allows that to happen, and choosing to ignore the penetration benefits of the heavier arrow. So basically limiting the shot distance to a satisfactory trajectory with a 700 grain arrow and seeing the penetration advantages is not what most bow shooters care to do. And I say the chances are great that is why broadheads are found in elk and other animals as the OP posted.

The thing is, a 700 grain arrow guarantees you nothing.


The 700 grain arrow is akin to the 300 win mag shooter. It's a Magnum, just need to touch it. Which I think is much more the thought process of the heavy arrow shooter than the light. Too many guys think that they have enough horsepower to go thru anything on an elk, or a deer for that matter. That's a dynamic target and too many things can happen at impact that might prevent breaching joints and sockets.

Besides, how many NA game animals have heavy bone over vitals?
Atleast when you take what is usually deemed a good shot angle with archery equipment.

 

[TheTone]

I hope the non bow hunters here advocating super heavy arrows etc do all of there hunting with 33+ caliber rifles, heavy bullets and limit their shots to 150 yards and less

 

[Dparenti547]

Just doing a little research here…

Say you have 2 arrows of varying weight.
These are 2 different arrow builds that I personally have.

1. 492 grains flying at 270fps
2. 683 grains flying at 232fps

So how does this affect animal reaction time and movement? Well, the animal is going to react - NO MATTER WHAT - by the time the arrow passes through the animal. Just making initial contact with the animal seems to be the only thing a lot of people consider. The entire length of the arrow passing through the animal is what should be considered.
So here is what the BASIC numbers tell me:

If you are shooting an animal at 40 yards,
The arrow flying at 270 fps will impact the animal in 0.44 seconds.
The arrow flying at 232 fps will impact the animal in 0.52 seconds.

That’s a difference of 0.08 seconds.
8 HUNDREDTHS of a second.

That is practically instantaneous.

That is an arrow weight difference of 191 grains.

Another thing to consider is that the 683 grain arrow is going to maintain its kinetic energy further down range than the 492 grain arrow, so actually it is slightly LESS than 0.08 seconds difference in flight time.

Those arrows are getting there at virtually the same time.

The 492 grain arrow’s momentum is .590 slugs
The 683 grain arrow’s momentum is .705 slugs

That is a 16% increase in penetration ability!
Plus the heavier arrow will maintain momentum further down range. Your bow will be quieter and vibrate less. The energy of the bow is transferred to the arrow at a higher percentage. What’s the downside? Your arrow will drop more. You may have more difficulty shooting through small gaps of branches and twigs. Those are usually bad shots to take anyway.
So you adjust your bow sight accordingly.
If you shoot a multi-pin sight and you shoot the gaps, well, with any arrow that’s fine up to about 30 yards, further out than that, you need to range the animal or you are NOT taking an ethical shot. Guessing yardage on an animal that is 40+ yards away is plain stupid in my opinion, and it’s a big reason people like lighter arrows. Range it.
Heavier arrows will have a significantly greater impact on an animal that is way out there (I’m talking 60+ yards)

Another thing people will say is that heavy arrows have poor trajectory. Well, not really! Lighter arrows feel the effects of drag from fletching significantly more than heavier arrows at long range. The nose begins to dip considerably, you get a parachuting effect on the rear end of the arrow, and the speed diminishes rapidly. And that happens with no wind. Add some wind there, and who knows where that arrow will wind up. Albeit it will get there a tenth of a second faster…

A heavier arrow with decent FOC won’t be nearly as effected by wind drift or by the drag created by the fletching. Yes, approaching a long range target, the arrows AOA (Angle of Attack) will be coming down on a fairly steeper trajectory, but there’s nothing wrong with that! You’ll have an exit-hole on the lower half of the animal, and a great blood trail since it passed all the way through, and didn’t just stick into the animal 10 inches and stop, plugging the entrance wound since it didn’t have the momentum to get through…

So look, I’ve shot plenty of deer with different setups. I’ve shot arrows that were 387 grains and were like a bolt of lightning out of my bow. Tough to tune, noisy, erratic broadhead flight, lousy penetration on non-perfect shots. That’s what I got with 296 fps with that arrow. If 683 grains is too much weight for your comfort, that’s fine. Get the weight over 500 at least. Better yet, build a 650 grain arrow and hold it in one hand, and build a 450 grain arrow and put it in the other hand. We’re talking GRAINS here people!!
200 grains = 13 grams. That’s a difference of 0.45 ounces.
The difference between a 450 grain arrow and a 650 is less than half an ounce. Do you understand the amount of energy your bow produces? Half an ounce is NOTHING. People want to say that shooting 700 grains is like shooting rebar out of your bow. The damn thing is still pretty light!

Shoot an arrow that has a fixed blade broadhead, 15-20% FOC, somewhere between 500-700 grains total weight. Where in that spectrum? Doesn’t matter that much. I say shoot for the middle @ 600 grains and then adjust the point/nock weight to get your arrow in that FOC window. PROPERLY SPINED (You want to be slightly stiff with a broadhead on there, and if you don’t know EXACTLY how spine works in relation to point weight and bow setup, then you need to learn that before you go into the woods.)
Make sure you spin and bareshaft tune each arrow so they fly PERFECTLY out of your bow, and then that’s it!

You don’t need all the speed in the world. It’s simply not that important.

 

[bigW]

Just doing a little research here…

Say you have 2 arrows of varying weight.
These are 2 different arrow builds that I personally have.

1. 492 grains flying at 270fps
2. 683 grains flying at 232fps

So how does this affect animal reaction time and movement? Well, the animal is going to react - NO MATTER WHAT - by the time the arrow passes through the animal. Just making initial contact with the animal seems to be the only thing a lot of people consider. The entire length of the arrow passing through the animal is what should be considered.
So here is what the BASIC numbers tell me:

If you are shooting an animal at 40 yards,
The arrow flying at 270 fps will impact the animal in 0.44 seconds.
The arrow flying at 232 fps will impact the animal in 0.52 seconds.

That’s a difference of 0.08 seconds.
8 HUNDREDTHS of a second.

That is practically instantaneous.

That is an arrow weight difference of 191 grains.

Another thing to consider is that the 683 grain arrow is going to maintain its kinetic energy further down range than the 492 grain arrow, so actually it is slightly LESS than 0.08 seconds difference in flight time.

Those arrows are getting there at virtually the same time.

The 492 grain arrow’s momentum is .590 slugs
The 683 grain arrow’s momentum is .705 slugs

That is a 16% increase in penetration ability!
Plus the heavier arrow will maintain momentum further down range. Your bow will be quieter and vibrate less. The energy of the bow is transferred to the arrow at a higher percentage. What’s the downside? Your arrow will drop more. You may have more difficulty shooting through small gaps of branches and twigs. Those are usually bad shots to take anyway.
So you adjust your bow sight accordingly.
If you shoot a multi-pin sight and you shoot the gaps, well, with any arrow that’s fine up to about 30 yards, further out than that, you need to range the animal or you are NOT taking an ethical shot. Guessing yardage on an animal that is 40+ yards away is plain stupid in my opinion, and it’s a big reason people like lighter arrows. Range it.
Heavier arrows will have a significantly greater impact on an animal that is way out there (I’m talking 60+ yards)

Another thing people will say is that heavy arrows have poor trajectory. Well, not really! Lighter arrows feel the effects of drag from fletching significantly more than heavier arrows at long range. The nose begins to dip considerably, you get a parachuting effect on the rear end of the arrow, and the speed diminishes rapidly. And that happens with no wind. Add some wind there, and who knows where that arrow will wind up. Albeit it will get there a tenth of a second faster…

A heavier arrow with decent FOC won’t be nearly as effected by wind drift or by the drag created by the fletching. Yes, approaching a long range target, the arrows AOA (Angle of Attack) will be coming down on a fairly steeper trajectory, but there’s nothing wrong with that! You’ll have an exit-hole on the lower half of the animal, and a great blood trail since it passed all the way through, and didn’t just stick into the animal 10 inches and stop, plugging the entrance wound since it didn’t have the momentum to get through…

So look, I’ve shot plenty of deer with different setups. I’ve shot arrows that were 387 grains and were like a bolt of lightning out of my bow. Tough to tune, noisy, erratic broadhead flight, lousy penetration on non-perfect shots. That’s what I got with 296 fps with that arrow. If 683 grains is too much weight for your comfort, that’s fine. Get the weight over 500 at least. Better yet, build a 650 grain arrow and hold it in one hand, and build a 450 grain arrow and put it in the other hand. We’re talking GRAINS here people!!
200 grains = 13 grams. That’s a difference of 0.45 ounces.
The difference between a 450 grain arrow and a 650 is less than half an ounce. Do you understand the amount of energy your bow produces? Half an ounce is NOTHING. People want to say that shooting 700 grains is like shooting rebar out of your bow. The damn thing is still pretty light!

Shoot an arrow that has a fixed blade broadhead, 15-20% FOC, somewhere between 500-700 grains total weight. Where in that spectrum? Doesn’t matter that much. I say shoot for the middle @ 600 grains and then adjust the point/nock weight to get your arrow in that FOC window. PROPERLY SPINED (You want to be slightly stiff with a broadhead on there, and if you don’t know EXACTLY how spine works in relation to point weight and bow setup, then you need to learn that before you go into the woods.)
Make sure you spin and bareshaft tune each arrow so they fly PERFECTLY out of your bow, and then that’s it!

You don’t need all the speed in the world. It’s simply not that important.

...some flaws in your considerations:

1. the momentum for big game (Hippos, cape buffalo ...) recommended by Ashby is just 0.57 pounds*sec;
2. speed is important - but you have to include the response time of the deer; if they have the head down usually they can duck faster as they can move the head at the same time in the opposite direction (...inertia!).
3. the ducking itself follows the physical laws of free fall - DROPPING HEIGHT = 0.5 x GRAVITY x TIMES^2 ....for your example the deer can drop for the 270 fps (0.44 sec) a whopping 0.968 m!!!!! ....but for the 232 fps arrow (0.52 sec) it is even 1.35 m!!!! ....now these numbers are obviously not realistic as you forgot to consider the response time which can be 0.02 sec to 0.2 sec ... or no response at all (unlikely). Assuming a realistic 0.2 sec response time we have to do the calculation with 0.24 sec respectively 0.32 sec and than the results are 0.29 m vs 0.51 m!!!!! ... that's the difference for hitting the vitals or not.
4. Therefore I try to keep my launch speed at 300 fps - at this speed the deer can duck as fast as it can as long as the distance is not more than 35 m ....if it is more 40 ...45 meters I aim 100 / 150 mm below the cente of the vitals.

...speed matters ...

wrt topic:
those shit shows from a convicted poacher that has over 200,000 followers who are cheering his world record shots at animals (that are walking away) at distances of 100 yds and more and the reluctancy of other channels (see Elk Shape this week - they even censor you when you make a critical comment) that promote his products / nose button without speaking out against him will definitely contribute to the issue.

 

[sneaky]

That's the head I pulled out of my cow elk shot in AZ, any ideas on what it is? Obviously didn't do it's job along with the archer and their bow. It was completely covered in tissue.

Swhacker. Breaks off so quick you can hear the swhack!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Rick M.]

Everyone thinks they're Cam Hanes, and can draw a 100lb bow and shoot a gnat off a nipple at 120 yards. Sucks for the animals.

 

[sneaky]

Time of flight, yardage needing to be exact.



Little to gain from 700 over 500, fair amount to loose.

My 450 grain arrow does shed FPS faster, but at 65 yards it's still going faster than a 560 grain arrow at the same distance.

Here's something, say the time of flight is 5/8 of a second for one arrow, and 3/4 second for another, made up numbers, but just trying to make a point. The animals reaction time is a 1/2 second. One arrow is going to make in impact with twice the animal reaction than the other, even tho the time frame isn't that much difference.

I'm in the camp of shoot enough, but it gets detrimental pretty quickly. Get drawn back and let that animal move 5 yards, 275-280 fps is a lot easier on that gap than 240-250 fps.

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archeryreport.com

Your lighter arrow will scrub speed much faster than the heavier arrow will, and loses KE at a much faster rate than the heavier arrow will. That article explains it in depth.

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[bigW]

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archeryreport.com

Your lighter arrow will scrub speed much faster than the heavier arrow will, and loses KE at a much faster rate than the heavier arrow will. That article explains it in depth.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

yes, irreversible losses due to higher friction at higher speeds ...we know this ....point is that my at launch faster arrow will be still significant faster compared to your heavier arrow when it hit the game, thus will be much faster reaching the game, thus will increase accuracy dramatically.

Conversely to rifles the KE and momentum is linked to the physics of the shooter - it is what it is ...and with my 31 DL and 70# for my hunting setup I get easily over 0.57 pounds*sec for light / very light arrows, and because of this I take the speed over arrow weight and an even higher momentum all the time knowing that my accuracy won't suffer due to the deer's ducking.

 

[sneaky]

yes, irreversible losses due to higher friction at higher speeds ...we know this ....point is that my at launch faster arrow will be still significant faster compared to your heavier arrow when it hit the game, thus will be much faster reaching the game, thus will increase accuracy dramatically.

Conversely to rifles the KE and momentum is linked to the physics of the shooter - it is what it is ...and with my 31 DL and 70# for my hunting setup I get easily over 0.57 pounds*sec for light / very light arrows, and because of this I take the speed over arrow weight and an even higher momentum all the time knowing that my accuracy won't suffer due to the deer's ducking.

There isn't a bow made that shoots faster than the speed of sound, but keep thinking you can. I have a 31.5" draw so it's a moot point. At longer distances your lightweight straw isn't going to impact with nearly as much speed or momentum that you think. Hook your bow up to a Labradar and shoot it and watch the rate at which your lightweight arrows drop in velocity at extended ranges. If your shots are under 40 yards it's a moot point, but a heavier arrow will be quieter, carries more energy at every distance, and penetrates better than a light arrow. You're obviously on the speed bandwagon, and that's fine. You just choose to shoot an arrow that doesn't optimize the efficiency of the energy stored in your bow.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Entirely predictable as stated above. People spend a lot of money and take time off, they don't want to go home empty handed. Many and will shoot at anything.

And they keep shooting - who knows how many they wound in the process.

 

[bigW]

There isn't a bow made that shoots faster than the speed of sound, but keep thinking you can. I have a 31.5" draw so it's a moot point. At longer distances your lightweight straw isn't going to impact with nearly as much speed or momentum that you think. Hook your bow up to a Labradar and shoot it and watch the rate at which your lightweight arrows drop in velocity at extended ranges. If your shots are under 40 yards it's a moot point, but a heavier arrow will be quieter, carries more energy at every distance, and penetrates better than a light arrow. You're obviously on the speed bandwagon, and that's fine. You just choose to shoot an arrow that doesn't optimize the efficiency of the energy stored in your bow.

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....no one stated that an arrow can beat the speed of sound (BTW: animals react to the sound from a MOVING object, and when they register that it comes towards them they respond to it - a stationary noise source / object doesn't worry them too much .... that 's just instinct, we actually do the same...car noises in the distance doesn't worry us, but if we hear a sound behind us that comes closer very fast ....)

...heavier arrow will be noisier in flight as you need more fletching, which will cause more drag, which will cause more speed loss...(not talking about the sound from the bow - stationary object ....)

....heavier arrows with high FOC will affect the angle of the arrow and the center of gravity - people get mislead by thinking that the "heavy tip will pull the arrow" ignoring that it is actually always the center of gravity that flies on the trajectory, and the heavier the tip the more likely is an unbalance that causes the arrow to hit in an angle... medieval archery works for clout shooting, but has some significant downsides when it comes to trajectory, accuracy and time to reach the target. I know a lot of the opinions wrt heavy arrows come from Ashby (and his fan boy RF), but let's not forget that this studies don't cover distances above 20 meters...

wrt testing: ..:....been there.... done this ....shoot 2" TAC vanes in a 3-fletch configuration with a 1.5 deg off set for this reason as it minimizes the drag losses significantly.

 

[def90]

I don't doubt it.. probably the same number of rifle gut shot and other elk running around out there as well.

 

[Sapcut]

...heavier arrow will be noisier in flight as you need more fletching, which will cause more drag, which will cause more speed loss...(not talking about the sound from the bow - stationary object ....)

....heavier arrows with high FOC will affect the angle of the arrow and the center of gravity - people get mislead by thinking that the "heavy tip will pull the arrow" ignoring that it is actually always the center of gravity that flies on the trajectory, and the heavier the tip the more likely is an unbalance that causes the arrow to hit in an angle... medieval archery works for clout shooting, but has some significant downsides when it comes to trajectory, accuracy and time to reach the target. I know a lot of the opinions wrt heavy arrows come from Ashby (and his fan boy RF), but let's not forget that this studies don't cover distances above 20 meters...

Respectfully Sir…. You simply know not of what you speak. Totally not true.

 

[bigW]

Respectfully Sir…. You simply know not of what you speak. Totally not true.

I don't have or want to convince you ...you have your reasons why you shoot your setup, I a have mine (based on my expertise in physics and engineering).....

 

[Sapcut]

When looking at both ends of the spectrum with one end being lighter arrows and other end being heavier arrows…. Which end are arrows overwhelming closest to regarding lack of arrow penetration?

In other words, how many times have you seen arrows not penetrate simply due to arrow being too light versus simply due to arrow being too heavy?

Answer that one without any personal preference bias.