Interesting Facebook post

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In 4 days of hunting the ND rifle season my group saw 3 wounded bucks from rifle hunters in 2 small areas. Bullets aren't magic and hunters toting rifles aren't magicians.

Women shoot elk every year with 45 lb archery set ups and light arrows. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING beats a well placed shot.

A well known hunter shot a bull elk this year with a 90 lb bow and hit it in the shoulder. Elk didn't die and needed another arrow in the boiler room to die. I firmly believe there's not a bow/arrow combo out there that can overcome a poor shot on an elk. There may be random exceptions but they are more luck than than anything.
That well known hunter is ham canes and he and rogan are both guilty of getting so many untrained noobs into archery which results in poor shots like the pictures in this thread. Matt Rinella made good points about the instagram hunters.
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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When looking at both ends of the spectrum with one end being lighter arrows and other end being heavier arrows…. Which end are arrows overwhelming closest to regarding lack of arrow penetration?

In other words, how many times have you seen arrows not penetrate simply due to arrow being too light versus simply due to arrow being too heavy?

Answer that one without any personal preference bias.
....achieving penetration at the spot you are aiming at requires a certain quality of accuracy first- this is what I'm focus on (by training and setup) - the momentum my arrows generate I can calculate precisely, and it is more than enough acc. to the Ashby recommendations (strange thing, when it comes to these kind of discussions lots of RF followers say ,,,"...yes, but Ashby said..." and then I tell them that my momentum is actually more than I need acc. to Ashby ....but that doesn't matter, for them it is still not heavy enough 😂 ...go figure...)
 

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WKR
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....achieving penetration at the spot you are aiming at requires a certain quality of accuracy first- this is what I'm focus on (by training and setup) - the momentum my arrows generate I can calculate precisely, and it is more than enough acc. to the Ashby recommendations (strange thing, when it comes to these kind of discussions lots of RF followers say ,,,"...yes, but Ashby said..." and then I tell them that my momentum is actually more than I need acc. to Ashby ....but that doesn't matter, for them it is still not heavy enough 😂 ...go figure...)
That response has nothing to do with my question that you quoted.
 

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WKR
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....achieving penetration at the spot you are aiming at requires a certain quality of accuracy first- this is what I'm focus on (by training and setup) - the momentum my arrows generate I can calculate precisely, and it is more than enough acc. to the Ashby recommendations (strange thing, when it comes to these kind of discussions lots of RF followers say ,,,"...yes, but Ashby said..." and then I tell them that my momentum is actually more than I need acc. to Ashby ....but that doesn't matter, for them it is still not heavy enough 😂 ...go figure...)
Why do Asian buffalo or elephant bow hunters use 1000+ grainers and not 400 grainers? Do they use much heavier arrows to see how little penetration they can get by with and still kill the animal?
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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Why do Asian buffalo or elephant bow hunters use 1000+ grainers and not 400 grainers? Do they use much heavier arrows to see how little penetration they can get by with and still kill the animal?
while I don't hunt animals bigger than deer: you can kill those animal with something small as a bullet - and the reason why you can do this is speed ...
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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That response has nothing to do with my question that you quoted.
...sorry that my answer didn't fulfill your expectations respectively isn't what you want to hear / read...might have just something do with the fact that we have different opinions, and that's just fine...
 

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WKR
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It continues to amaze me how grown adults absolutely cannot have a conversation with very specific and simple questions without personal preference biases ruining a simple and honest answer

Is it really impossible to answer the simple questions without bias? Just hilarious.
 

bigW

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It continues to amaze me how grown adults absolutely cannot have a conversation with very specific and simple questions without personal preference biases ruining a simple and honest answer

Is it really impossible to answer the simple questions without bias? Just hilarious.
weight of an elephant: up to 7 tonne ....weight of an elk: up to half a tonne ...elephant is 14 times!!!!! heavier ...
.... simple answer: it is horses for courses ...but if some people want to use a catapult with a gigantic spear for deer or elk because they think they need it ...go for it....:cool:

Eta: ...still waiting to see an elephant ducking an arrow ....:LOL::ROFLMAO:😂
 

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WKR
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Ohhh. So what you’re saying, in an end around kind of way, is that heavier arrows shot with heavier bows actually do penetrate animals better than lighter arrows when real resistance is a factor, hence the reason larger heavier animal bow hunters do not use light weight arrows no matter how fast they are.

Thanks for an honest response Sir.
 
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Your lighter arrow will scrub speed much faster than the heavier arrow will, and loses KE at a much faster rate than the heavier arrow will. That article explains it in depth.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Please tell me more.....



Dude, I been down a lot of different routes. My fast arrow at 60 yards is still faster than the heavy arrow at launch when it's at 74 yards....


It varies based on the individual, but I know what works for me.

Screenshot_20220211-124753_Google.jpg

Heat of the moment, this chit don't work for me trying to decide if he is 10, 20, or 30 yards....
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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Ohhh. So what you’re saying, in an end around kind of way, is that heavier arrows shot with heavier bows actually do penetrate animals better than lighter arrows when real resistance is a factor, hence the reason larger heavier animal bow hunters do not use light weight arrows no matter how fast they are.

Thanks for an honest response Sir.
you are leaving out the size of the vitals and the usual distance those "bigger" game gets shot?...pretty hard to miss an elephant from 20 meters ....but again, compare apples with oranges as you like and find pleasure in answering your own questions to your liking...
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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Please tell me more.....



Dude, I been down a lot of different routes. My fast arrow at 60 yards is still faster than the heavy arrow at launch when it's at 74 yards....


It varies based on the individual, but I know what works for me.

View attachment 380005

Heat of the moment, this chit don't work for me trying to decide if he is 10, 20, or 30 yards....
reminds me of crocodile Dundee ..."that's not a knife .....THAT is a knife...." ....😂😅😆 ... no shortage of gaps I guess....

Eta: ...where is the 80 mm housing when you need it .... 😁
 
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reminds me of crocodile Dundee ..."that's not a knife .....THAT is a knife...." ....😂😅😆 ... no shortage of gaps I guess....


Different strokes for different folks.


I charted some different fps at distance for people in a thread. I put different weight arrows through a shooting machine at 65 yards. It depends on what you hunt and how, but speed has its advantages.



It's starting to take over in indoor target too, them arrows getting off the bow faster cover up some form flaws....
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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Different strokes for different folks.


I charted some different fps at distance for people in a thread. I put different weight arrows through a shooting machine at 65 yards. It depends on what you hunt and how, but speed has its advantages.



It's starting to take over in indoor target too, them arrows getting off the bow faster cover up some form flaws....
...it is already a no-brainer in unmarked 3D ...obviously.....and hunting is close to unmarked 3D PLUS a moving target ...so for me it is an arrows just as heavy as it needs to be to achieve the required momentum (and I don't go overboard here), and then the focus is on speed ...
 

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WKR
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you are leaving out the size of the vitals and the usual distance those "bigger" game gets shot?...pretty hard to miss an elephant from 20 meters ....but again, compare apples with oranges as you like and find pleasure in answering your own questions to your liking...
Yet again, size of vitals has nothing to do with my question about penetrating a buff or elephant. (That could be a different discussion.) It’s very simple yet very simple to avoid as well, apparently. Big animal hunters use heavy equipment in order to maximize penetration. I know it, you know it and they know it. Even their back up rifles are not light and fast. They are big and heavy as well. And we all know that to.

Again I say, some bow hunters are more interested in reaching the animal at longer distances than penetrating the animal when it gets there. Not all but some.
 
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Your lighter arrow will scrub speed much faster than the heavier arrow will, and loses KE at a much faster rate than the heavier arrow will. That article explains it in depth.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Here you go...

Here are a few more data points. Not with broadheads. But different arrow weights at distance. Bow was a Hoyt carbon defiant 34. 29" draw set on 72#. Arrows were carbon express Maxima hunters. Had 3" fusion vanes. Played with tip weight to see how it changed velocities. Had 100 grain with standard insert (350 shaft), 100 grain with 50 grain insert(450 shaft), and 125 with 50 grain insert(450 shaft). Shafts were cut down a bit on the heavier tip weight arrows.

Arrow weight: 391.5 grains. 3' velocity - 313.7 fps, 65 yard velocity - 280.1 fps


463.4 grains, 3' velocity - 290.5 fps, 65 yard velocity - 263 fps.


482 grain arrow, 3' velocity - 285.4 fps, 65 yard velocity - 259.3 fps.

So you can see how the mass of the heavier arrows help them to overcome the external forces. This wasn't a test of broadhead flight but rather about retained energy. Actually used 9 different arrows. 3 of each weight. Averaged all the data for each setup. Average weight of the 3, average speed of the 3.


Copied from a post I made a few years ago.
 
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When looking at both ends of the spectrum with one end being lighter arrows and other end being heavier arrows…. Which end are arrows overwhelming closest to regarding lack of arrow penetration?

In other words, how many times have you seen arrows not penetrate simply due to arrow being too light versus simply due to arrow being too heavy?

Answer that one without any personal preference bias.
I will honestly reply to this….


I was absorbed in the fast/light arrow doctrine. “SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING” right???

I went with fast/light arrows. I blew trough a doe at 52 yards with a 387 grain arrow. Dead in 30 yards.

That was best case scenario. No reaction, right through the heart.

We can’t count on that. What we should count on is arrows landing in a spot we don’t anticipate. We should anticipate bad shots.

Give me perfect arrow flight and hard penetration or give me death!!!

PERFECT ARROW FLIGHT is key. You are working on an extremely basic and unknowledgeable level until you understand what perfect arrow flight means. You really need to understand the mystical flight of the arrow before you can address arrow weight. If your arrow isn’t flying perfectly straight into your target, then it doesn’t matter how heavy it is. Perfect arrow flight is KEY. Go home if you can’t figure it out. Don’t go out there and wound bulls and bucks with an imperfect understanding of how to get them killed!
 

bigW

Lil-Rokslider
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Yet again, size of vitals has nothing to do with my question about penetrating a buff or elephant. (That could be a different discussion.) It’s very simple yet very simple to avoid as well, apparently. Big animal hunters use heavy equipment in order to maximize penetration. I know it, you know it and they know it. Even their back up rifles are not light and fast. They are big and heavy as well. And we all know that to.

Again I say, some bow hunters are more interested in reaching the animal at longer distances than penetrating the animal when it gets there. Not all but some.
... I get the impression that if you would be a fisherman you would also use a whale harpoon for trout fishing :unsure:...if your bow (pending on your physis and DL) generates enough KE to match the required momentum at the fastest speed possible, why would you chose another setup??? ...and beyond this (physis / DL) the other important aspect is ...
....:cool:
 
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