I'm all ears - any info on buying/building points per state?

[blb078]

So is defining what a trophy is to you the first step, cause I'll be honest, I'm thoroughly confused as to where I should and should not apply.

Like you I'm in my first year of doing all this. I'm applying to 5 states, AZ, UT, MT, CO, WY. MT, CO, WY I plan to save up 3 points and once I get that I put in for what ever the best areas I can get for those points in one of those states. That way every year I should be able to hunt a unit that isn't a general/otc type unit and get away from the crowds, in one of those three states and then I can fall back on the otc units in CO or the gen combo tag in MT. 3 points might not put me in a trophy unit but for the most part it should be better than an general/otc type unit. Then I'll be using AZ & UT for trophy units/hunts since it will take a while anyway for those states, those are also the states were I'll apply for the sheep since it's only a couple bucks more from what I'm reading. Then I'll use ME, NH, VT for moose since you can buy a point in all 3 of those states for a total of $65 for all three. And if I ever feel like adding the random draws in NM and ID I'll do that. It might not be the best way of doing it but so far it's what I've figured out.

 

[shanevg]

That's why I get most excited for the Idaho and New Mexico draws. I'm changing my strategy for sheep this year and putting in for better odds units. I decided a 150 class sheep would make me more than happy

The publications like HF don't really capture the odds that well. I realized that this year for NV desert sheep. I applied in the top unit and their odds were something like 1 in a 1000. When you start calculating how many people with 20 bonus points (and 19, 18, 17...) put in, you quickly see that your odds were closer to one in 50,000 (with zero points). Like I said, I realized I'm ok if I don't kill a world record desert sheep!

A lot of people don't realize the true downside of states like WA and NV (and now MT) where they square the points. When you have that many applicants applying for so few tags, the odds are absolutely terrible, even if you have max points. I live in WA so obviously do of research there. They release how many people apply for each tag and how many points every applicant has. I put together a spreadsheet that breaks down my true percentage odds of getting drawn for some of the Once in a Lifetime (OIL) tags. The goat hunt I apply for had 800 applicants last year and the applicant with max points had 0.1% draw odds of getting drawn. The real downside is that if you look over the past 5 yeas - every single person that applied (even max point holders) odds have DECREASED. 5 years ago, a max point holder had 0.6% chance of getting drawn but because there are so many new applicants every year watering down the applicant pool, every single person who applies has worse odds next year than the had this year. That is true for every hunt with worse than 1 in 100 odds in both WA and in NV.

 

[shanevg]

So is defining what a trophy is to you the first step, cause I'll be honest, I'm thoroughly confused as to where I should and should not apply.

Absolutely that is your first step! Are you looking to hunt the best units in the states or just have better hunts than an OTC hunt? What specifically makes a hunt better in your mind? Rut dates, weapon choice, less hunters, number of animals, trophy quality? Nearly every state has relatively easy hunts to get drawn for (5 points or less) that hit one of the above options but aren't the best unit in the state. Narrow down your choices based on that and then start applying.

As you can see from lots of people's posts in this thread - there are a lot of states that are true ripoffs to even apply for (WY sheep and moose stand out at this point.) If you have questions about the ins and outs of a specific state, just let us know and I'm sure we'd be happy to help you answer.

On a side note to the above - you also need to look at what species you want to hunt. You may only care right now about deer and elk but if you ever want to hunt moose, sheep, or goat in the future then it's best to start applying for points now. In a lot of states (like NV, UT, CA, AZ, OR) if you are applying for deer/elk you might as well be applying for other species as well. In other states (CO, MT) you can realistically get drawn for a sheep/goat tag in your lifetime if you just start playing the game now. You may have to wait 10+ years for both of those states but overall the non-refundable are very low (as long as you are able to front the refundable cash or put it on a credit card) and it's just a matter of playing the waiting game until you get drawn.

 

[bigeasygator]

So is defining what a trophy is to you the first step, cause I'll be honest, I'm thoroughly confused as to where I should and should not apply.

There is no one right answer. A lot of it depends on what you want (and that may change). There are certain things to keep in mind for each state though. Here are questions to ask yourself, and then use the answers and some additional research to guide your applications...

- How much can you spend in upfront fees as well as out of pocket fees?
- What species are you interested in hunting and what are most important to you to hunt?
- Are you interested in units that are likely to produce the next world record, or in units that would produce a great representative of the species?
- How quickly do you want to hunt? Are you willing to wait?

Based on those answers, research the states and the various units. Learn what kind of animals each of the units are producing. Learn the allocation between non-residents and residents. Learn how the draw works and how the bonus and preference points are used. Learn if you can even draw a unit you are applying to. Build a strategy that meets the answers to the above questions. Here's my take on the pros and cons for each state:

Arizona: Pros - tremendous trophy potential; two choices on your application are considered; cheap per species up-front fees. Cons: 20% of tags reserved for max point holders (this means the 10% non-resident allocation always goes to the top point holders for the most exclusive units) therefore hard or impossible to draw best units for decades; have to pay up-front hunting license fee (if you apply for one species, apply for all)

Colorado: Pros - cheap non-refundable fees; great trophy quality for most species (not so much for elk); landowner tags and OTC tags supplement draw opportunities. Cons - pure preference point system for elk, deer, antelope (three preference points are needed before you can draw moose, sheep, or goat)

Idaho: Pros - OTC opportunities; best sheep odds in the west, everyone has the same odds. Cons - Expensive (have to buy license); can basically only apply for one species as a non-resident

Montana: Pros - tremendous trophy sheep; bonus point squared system means you can draw in year one. Cons: Expensive applying for deer and elk, quality of deer and elk not like other states

Nevada: Pros - bonus point squared system, cheap to apply for a number of species, can apply for two (sometimes three) sheep species, great trophy potential, landowner tags available for some units. Cons - have to buy license up front

New Mexico: Pros - everyone has the same odds, great trophy elk, cheap per species fee; landowner tags available Cons - High upfront application costs

Oregon: Pros - no point system for sheep. Cons - have to purchase license up front, deer and elk tags are tough to draw and trophy quality isn't there like other states

Utah: Pros - tremendous trophy potential in LE units, relatively cheap application costs, potential to draw the first year (25% of the tags go to random draw. For units with less than four tags, all go in a random draw). Cons - Tags are difficult to draw.

Washington: Pros - trophy potential and high hunter success for moose, sheep, goat; bonus point squared system. Cons - $112 per species to apply.

Wyoming: Pros - great hunting opportunities with low points (same as Colorado); most sheep tags in the west. Cons - expensive up front costs and sheep points are expensive; hard to draw tags (75% go to applicant with the most points)

As you can imagine, those are only some of the details on each state (and I was getting tired writing that) haha Hope that makes it a little clearer (I know I know...clear as mud!).

 

[tstowater]

You have gotten a lot of great advice in this thread. Confusing now, but go back in a couple days and read it from the start and you will see how it fits together quite well. The logic to my applications revolves around sheep hunts, namely Rockies and Deserts. I now have a Dall and a Stone and frankly not willing to pay for a hunt in Alberta, BC or Mexico at this time. Since I am going to be applying in almost all the western states for sheep (I skip CA and WA), I then determine if there is value to applying for other species. That's where applying in Nevada then makes sense. I was applying for sheep and was putting in for elk and mule deer also. I drew 231 elk tag in 2011 as I'm not going that far unless it is expected to be a good hunt.

If you are mainly after elk and/or deer, this potentially changes the whole thought process. The trophy issue is obviously another relevant factor to add to the mix, let alone all the other factors Shane and others have pointed out. Sit back, define your goals, look at how much money you can put behind your plan and see what you can accomplish. There are people out there with a lot more experience and expertise than me that can steer you in the right direction.

 

[shanevg]

Awesome write up bigeasygator!

rhendrix - let us know if you have any specific questions that we can help with.

 

[rhendrix]

To answer some of the above questions:

- I'm most interested in hunting mule deer, elk run a close second, but I'm fascinated with hunting mule deer with a bow. Elk are kinda like my fall back plan.

- Realistically, I'd be comfortable spending 300 dollars in fees after I've received whatever refund checks I'm going to receive. I know that's not much to play with, but I am a firefighter/paramedic and refuse to put my family in a bind because I want to go hunting.

- I'm not interested in a trophy mule deer or elk, at least not at the moment, I just want the opportunity to hunt in a unit that receives less pressure than your average OTC unit. A 140-160" mule deer is a dream buck to me, and I'll shoot an elk that is below 300" all week long and twice on Sundays.

- This being my first year, I plan on going hunting either way, whether it's for OTC elk, or mule deer in CO or ID. I will be in the mountains on September 4th ready to arrow something.

Defining some of this helps me tremendously...If I'm calculating my costs correctly, I could apply in UT ($85.00), CO ($50.00 if I do not get drawn for my first choice of elk or deer), WY ($40.00 for a PP), and MT ($50.00 for a PP). That brings my total cost assuming I’m not drawn anywhere to $225.00. I don’t quite understand what it would cost me to hunt deer in NM though, I thought it was just the $65.00 license, but I don’t believe that is correct. If that’s the case I’d be right at where I want to be cost wise and I’d have a PP for deer in 3-4 states and hopefully a deer tag in CO and if all else fails a OTC deer in ID or an OTC elk tag in the unit I want to hunt mule deer in CO this year.

 

[wapitibob]

You do have a chance to draw that tag with less than 10 points. You can draw it with zero points. 50% of Utah LE tags go to the person with the most points, the remaining 50% are chosen by a random draw. It's not a good chance, but it's a chance. The HF says the random odds are 1 in 250, but that doesn't count bonus points so it's worse than that. But, again, it's still possible.

You were talking AZ and in AZ a non resident with 10 points has had zero chance of drawing that tag for the last several years. Every NR tag was drawn in the 20% pass and an app with zero points in not included in the 20% pass draw. A zero point, nr app's only chance to draw is in the random draw. And the only tags available are those not drawn in the 20% pass. Those units historically are from 4 thru 7, and the 11's and half those units had less than 10 tags pass to the random draw in 2011. I have yet to file for the 2012 data but looking at 2010 and 2011, I don't see the trend changing.

 

[rhendrix]

If I'm reading these stats right, and I think I am...I could draw with 0 points for the Wasatch unit in UT (1526). Is that correct?

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/12_general_deer.pdf

 

[wapitibob]

yeppers

 

[bigeasygator]

You were talking AZ and in AZ a non resident with 10 points has had zero chance of drawing that tag for the last several years. Every NR tag was drawn in the 20% pass and an app with zero points in not included in the 20% pass draw. A zero point, nr app's only chance to draw is in the random draw. And the only tags available are those not drawn in the 20% pass. Those units historically are from 4 thru 7, and the 11's and half those units had less than 10 tags pass to the random draw in 2011. I have yet to file for the 2012 data but looking at 2010 and 2011, I don't see the trend changing.

You're absolutely right wb, my bad! (I've posted so much I can't keep it straight!). That's why it's important to understand the allocation and the sequence of the draw as every state does it differently!

 

[bigeasygator]

To answer some of the above questions:

- I'm most interested in hunting mule deer, elk run a close second, but I'm fascinated with hunting mule deer with a bow. Elk are kinda like my fall back plan.

- Realistically, I'd be comfortable spending 300 dollars in fees after I've received whatever refund checks I'm going to receive. I know that's not much to play with, but I am a firefighter/paramedic and refuse to put my family in a bind because I want to go hunting.

- I'm not interested in a trophy mule deer or elk, at least not at the moment, I just want the opportunity to hunt in a unit that receives less pressure than your average OTC unit. A 140-160" mule deer is a dream buck to me, and I'll shoot an elk that is below 300" all week long and twice on Sundays.

- This being my first year, I plan on going hunting either way, whether it's for OTC elk, or mule deer in CO or ID. I will be in the mountains on September 4th ready to arrow something.

Defining some of this helps me tremendously...If I'm calculating my costs correctly, I could apply in UT ($85.00), CO ($50.00 if I do not get drawn for my first choice of elk or deer), WY ($40.00 for a PP), and MT ($50.00 for a PP). That brings my total cost assuming I’m not drawn anywhere to $225.00. I don’t quite understand what it would cost me to hunt deer in NM though, I thought it was just the $65.00 license, but I don’t believe that is correct. If that’s the case I’d be right at where I want to be cost wise and I’d have a PP for deer in 3-4 states and hopefully a deer tag in CO and if all else fails a OTC deer in ID or an OTC elk tag in the unit I want to hunt mule deer in CO this year.

That helps tremendously in building a strategy rhendrix! Here's what I would do if I were you...

Put in for Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming. I'd build points in Utah (with the hope of drawing a tag), and plan on drawing in Colorado, Wyoming, and Nevada every three to four years. Based on the quality of animals you are looking for, you can easily draw tags that meet those objectives as a bowhunter (I drew one in Colorado as my second choice this year). I'd apply in Nevada as opposed to Montana because the quality of animals is better. I'd spend a few extra dollars in Nevada and Utah and build points for every species since it's only a few dollars more. That total cost should be close to $300 (maybe a little more) but will give you some great opportunities. Again, just my opinion! Sounds like you've worked things out pretty good though and the information you've provided will go a long way in pinning a strategy down. And as far as New Mexico, it's $65 for a license (I think there maybe a non-refundable fee of $10-20 or so per species as well) and if you draw a tag it's $300-500 depending on the unit (you do have to float these costs upfront like CO)!

 

[tstowater]

As you can see, the point system has become a double edged sword. Unless there is a preference system (AZ, Ut, WY, CO) and you are on the top of the mountain, your odds are generally getting worse every year. The only true beneficiary of this system has been the game and fish departments in the states that seem to be funding a lot of their budgets based on application fees. Sooner or later people are going to re-evaluate their application process and focus on value. As of now, there is an awful lot of money chasing a limited number of tags, especially the truely high value tags for elk, deer, sheep, etc. Some of those tags are truely like winning the lottery. There are some tags worth going after, but you need to know how to find them, or get lucky. HF has changed their strategy this year and are listing what they perceive as "opportunity tags", being a good hunt, but not a true trophy hunt in their eyes. Remember what I said earlier, use the written resources as guides, not the gospel. Can't beat a friend with good info about a sleeper unit. Bad part anymore is that if someone shoots something, it is all over the internet in no time. There are very few public areas out west with perceived trophy potential that aren't being scouted by hunters and outfitters. Can a DIY still succeed? Unquestionably yes. Just look at some of the animals that have shown up on this site.

BTW, I think that you came up with a good strategy worth trying. Also agree with Bigeasygator about substituting NV for MT for long term value. MT has awesome sheep and rest of animals can be up and down in my book. As of now, I'm only putting in for sheep and goats in MT.

 

[bz_711]

Fantastic Info guys...thanks!

With 4 kids I don't see me playing too much of the waiting game as my hopes are to always have kids hunting with me when I go in the future. I'll probably focus on a couple rare species (Bighorn for sure, Moose, and maybe mountain goat)...then for Elk, Mulies, (and maybe Pronghorn someday)...just use points as a way to get into those 2-3 point units that have slightly better game numbers than OTC. I will be just as excited pulling out of my driveway toward an OTC hunt - as I would a top unit hunt (maybe even more so with less pressure on myself to score on a long awaited tag). I need to learn more about these Moose hunts in the NE.

Preparation and Anticipation are big piece of any hunt for me - so I actually enjoy learning all this info regarding points...and enjoy hearing you all talk strategy...it really is part of the hunt. Great Stuff!

Good Luck to everyone with your plan - please post up a recap of your hunts this year (with pics) regardless if tag was punched...I always enjoy learning.

 

[Matt Cashell]

This is a great thread with a ton of good information. Good on you guys for helping out another Rokslider!




I agree you should definitely not hunt Montana, there aren't any quality animals here.

 

[shanevg]

If you plan to hunt with your kids in the future pay attention to youth hunts too. AZ and NM have some awesome youth tags and applications in WY are really cheap!

 

[bohntr]

There is some good info posted already......but honestly, some that doesn't paint an accurate picture too.

IF you are a bowhunter and want to hunt mule deer and elk (trophy caliber), then Arizona is a MUST apply state, IMO. Yes, you have to buy a license every year to apply and accrue points, but as a bowhunter, you can hunt trophy rutting mule deer & coues deer in January with an over-the-counter tag every year, so you'll already have the license.

As for archery bull elk being difficult to draw (15 years?). Well, I've drawn 4 archery bull elk tags in 19 years as a non-resident. If you truly understand the draw odds for respective units and are willing to hunt the "not so popular" units, you'll have a great opportunity at P&Y class bulls every 5-6 years. To me, that's worth it.

For mule deer, if you apply for draw units (mostly North of the Grand Canyon) non-residents can usually draw the Kaibab (12A) with 2 BP's. You can actually hunt the desert units in January with an OTC tag AND apply for a BP for deer within the same calendar year. This allows you to accrue BP's and draw a tag eventually for some draw units.

 

[bigeasygator]

There is some good info posted already......but honestly, some that doesn't paint an accurate picture too.

IF you are a bowhunter and want to hunt mule deer and elk (trophy caliber), then Arizona is a MUST apply state, IMO. Yes, you have to buy a license every year to apply and accrue points, but as a bowhunter, you can hunt trophy rutting mule deer & coues deer in January with an over-the-counter tag every year, so you'll already have the license.

As for archery bull elk being difficult to draw (15 years?). Well, I've drawn 4 archery bull elk tags in 19 years as a non-resident. If you truly understand the draw odds for respective units and are willing to hunt the "not so popular" units, you'll have a great opportunity at P&Y class bulls every 5-6 years. To me, that's worth it.

For mule deer, if you apply for draw units (mostly North of the Grand Canyon) non-residents can usually draw the Kaibab (12A) with 2 BP's. You can actually hunt the desert units in January with an OTC tag AND apply for a BP for deer within the same calendar year. This allows you to accrue BP's and draw a tag eventually for some draw units.

Those are great additions Roy, and they highlight the importance of doing research! Anything I added was a broad generalization and hopefully didn't mislead anyone (like I've said multiple times, it's hard to summarize every nuance of each state in a short internet post). Roy's written a few articles about hunting desert muleys in Arizona on OTC tags and for sure you can shoot some nice deer on those hunts! The only downside to Arizona is the long wait to draw the "top" units and the requirement to buy a license, but if you can swing an OTC hunt it's only a tiny incremental cost to put in for the draw and get that bonus point.

There are plenty of gems to be had that aren't listed as a top unit. This is only my third year applying. The first year I let Cabela's TAGS do my applications as I had no clue about anything! That year I got lucky and drew a unit in New Mexico that isn't even listed in the Huntin' Fool, yet is the only once in a lifetime tag in that state (since I can't draw it anymore, it's the Valle Vidal!). I saw over 500 elk in 6 days, numerous 300 class bulls, and some that easily went 350+. It was the hunt of my life (and I didn't even kill an elk)...and yet this unit isn't even brought up in the publications. I think those publications are focusing on the next world record in units that don't require a lot of work and there are tremendous opportunities for unbelievable animals in plenty of others that aren't discussed or are only glossed over.

This part of hunting has become almost as much fun as hunting for me! It's a way to kill the time between the end of hunting season and the start of the next and I find it to be a lot of fun getting to know the states as much as possible.

 

[tstowater]

I agree you should definitely not hunt Montana, there aren't any quality animals here.

Don't take me wrong, I know that there are 400 inch elk (ask Jared) and some tremedous mulelys and antelope out there. With the way Montana has there limited draw units set up for elk and deer, I not sure I want to mess with it. I know I will be back in Montana to hunt elk and I know where, I just need to find the time.

BTW, there isn't any decent whitetail hunting in Iowa either.

 

[tstowater]

If you plan to hunt with your kids in the future pay attention to youth hunts too. AZ and NM have some awesome youth tags and applications in WY are really cheap!

In AZ, just need hunter safety and a $26.50 license for a kid to start. PP's are $7.50 a piece. I like the NM also, but haven't used it yet. Can I "roll" the Wyoming youth points to regular points??