Idaho proposed special season open sight centerfire

[idelkslayer]

Watch the May 2025 commission meeting video in this link if you want a deep dive into the history of mule deer in Idaho…

Mule deer 2025: Here's where we are, and from where we've come

Mild-to-normal winters typically grow Idaho’s mule deer herds, or more accurately, allow herds to grow. But as history has often shown, the good times don't last forever. Another normal winter in 2024-25 means odds are in our favor that we’ll have as good or better mule deer hunting than last year.

idfg.idaho.gov

Excellent article and video. Hunters have short-term memories and heavily weigh their own anecdotal observations over any collected data. If they showed a graph of hunter numbers over that time span you would see a pretty stable average as well.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Ok- Tracking Point or other visually controlled fire systems?

I had never heard of Tracking Point until you mentioned it. It looks like it automates the firing solution to help eliminate shooter error? It doesn’t seem like anything I would use, but if someone wants to use it, I don’t care.

I go shooting every week that I am not hunting, because I like shooting and I want to make sure that the few hunting shots I take every year hit where they should. If someone wants to use a computer to make the wind call, that doesn’t bother me. Just like I don’t care if someone buys a Gunwerks rifle, hires an army of guides, and shoots from a tripod before getting on his helicopter to go back to Jackson Hole.

If we can’t fix the systemic problems, then we have to limit access. Fewer tags (especially for NR) and/or rigorous enforcement of rules concerning motorized transport.

 

[HunterGatherer]

So after all the debate, The real issue around the tech isn’t herd management or even hunter satisfaction ( except in the case of the iron sights proposal). It’s about fair chase. The technologies that are up for debate in Idaho currently are thermal, cel cams, and drones. Thermal isn’t fair chase for ungulates, neither are drones. Cel cams are debatable IMO but I don’t like them personally, although I have used them ( I no longer do ).

The newly proposed iron sights season isn’t about taking away opportunities from hunters. It’s about adding another option for hunters that are tired of sniper rifle season and are willing to give up some tech to have a different experience, albeit with potentially lower odds of success. The whole system is built this way - better seasons for more primitive weapons, which is nothing new. No reason for pearl clutching because “ they’re trying to take scopes away”.

 

[WRO]

39 is maybe not as bad as we think. There was a major crash in ‘16/17’ but the population has shown steady recovery since then. Biologists now think, based on declining fawn weights that the unit is approaching carrying capacity. Lower Fawn weights correlate with higher winter kill …
View attachment 977989
The thing we’re seeing in units like 39 is a lack of mature bucks, which makes it feel like the unit is declining in general. I quit hunting the late archery hunt for lack of mature bucks. They just aren’t there like they used to be. This is most likely caused by gaps in the age class by severe winter kill events more than overharvest. Another component that I would speculate on is that recent fires have opened up a massive amount of country. The animals in burns are much more exposed and easier to kill with long range weapons even though they increase good deer habitat in the long run.

The winter range is ****** and it only going to get worse with the addition of Mayfield and Avimor developments.

 

[Formidilosus]

I had never heard of Tracking Point until you mentioned it. It looks like it automates the firing solution to help eliminate shooter error? It doesn’t seem like anything I would use, but if someone wants to use it, I don’t care.

I go shooting every week that I am not hunting, because I like shooting and I want to make sure that the few hunting shots I take every year hit where they should. If someone wants to use a computer to make the wind call, that doesn’t bother me. Just like I don’t care if someone buys a Gunwerks rifle, hires an army of guides, and shoots from a tripod before getting on his helicopter to go back to Jackson Hole.

Idon’t scout, I don’t carry the weight (motorized legs), I don’t find the animals (guides), I don’t aim the rifle (TP on tripod), I don’t fire the gun (TP), I don’t track the animal (thermals/guides), I don’t carry the animal (guides/ motorized legs), I don’t process the animal (butcher).

So not hunting at all. And you believe this position is defensible to any one about ethical hunting and the NA conservation model?

If we can’t fix the systemic problems, then we have to limit access. Fewer tags (especially for NR) and/or rigorous enforcement of rules concerning motorized transport.

So it’s clear- I am not saying that iron sights are the answer. Just that technology must be in the conversation, and I can objectively understand why the iron sights movement is taking hold.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Idon’t scout, I don’t carry the weight (motorized legs), I don’t find the animals (guides), I don’t aim the rifle (TP on tripod), I don’t fire the gun (TP), I don’t track the animal (thermals/guides), I don’t carry the animal (guides/ motorized legs), I don’t process the animal (butcher).

So not hunting at all. And you believe this position is defensible to any one about ethical hunting and the NA conservation model?





So it’s clear- I am not saying that iron sights are the answer. Just that technology must be in the conversation, and I can objectively understand why the iron sights movement is taking hold.

Form, what you describe is not “hunting,” by my personal definition. But neither is sitting in a blind shooting deer at a corn feeder. And that is “hunting” for a lot of Americans.

If your hypothetical “hunter who doesn’t do anything” wants to brag about his skill or post his trophy elk on social media, I can’t stop him. But I can ignore him.

If you want to limit technology, I am entirely in favor of banning the mobility advantages. If you want to limit all public land access to leather personnel carrier and animal transport, I would be just fine with that. I’m also quite okay with banning all scouting technology beyond regular optics (no drones, no thermals, no game cameras, etc.). And ban all hunting over bait. And ban all scent lures. And get rid of all NR tags on state land.

But when it comes to the act of killing, I am not interested in “feats of skill.” I am interested only in the humane killing and recovery of the dead animal. I practice so that the shot is the least remarkable part of hunting. If someone else wants to have you spot for him and make the wind call for him, I don’t care. My competition isn’t with some dumb animal or other hunters. It’s with myself.

And the reason that an “iron sights only” hunting area doesn’t appeal to me is that it is a totally futile gesture that will do nothing to solve the problem. If you can’t fix the systemic problems, then you have to accept crowding or limit tags. All these special seasons - be they archery, muzzleloader, iron sights - are just attempts to keep selling access to more people than are actually sustainable. It’s like Disney selling “skip the line passes” so that the rich don’t have to wait in line with the hoi polloi.

When it comes to public land hunting, my sympathies are with the average resident hunter who wants to go into the local lands to hunt. I want sustainable local traditions of hunting open to the common man. And I want the average person to be able to kill humanely, recover dead animals, and eat them.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I want sustainable local traditions of hunting open to the common man. And I want the average person to be able to kill humanely, recover dead animals, and eat them

In a world of limited harvest opportunity, restricted seasons are the best path to “sustainable local traditions”. You need residents to be able to hunt every year, or hunting traditions die.

I would be willing to sacrifice modern gun hunting entirely to retain year-round hunting in my state, so I have no issues with Idahoans sacrificing something as negligible as scopes to try to retain it in theirs.

I think at the end of the day some of us sit on complete opposite sides of the spectrum on this, and that’s okay. But I’m always going to prioritize resident OTC opportunity at the expense of weapon effectiveness.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I guess I did not realize using open sights was such a difficult thing to do.

Is it easier or harder to place your shot where you want it to go with a good scope or a good set of iron sights?

 

[wind gypsy]

Form, what you describe is not “hunting,” by my personal definition. But neither is sitting in a blind shooting deer at a corn feeder. And that is “hunting” for a lot of Americans.

If your hypothetical “hunter who doesn’t do anything” wants to brag about his skill or post his trophy elk on social media, I can’t stop him. But I can ignore him.

If you want to limit technology, I am entirely in favor of banning the mobility advantages. If you want to limit all public land access to leather personnel carrier and animal transport, I would be just fine with that. I’m also quite okay with banning all scouting technology beyond regular optics (no drones, no thermals, no game cameras, etc.). And ban all hunting over bait. And ban all scent lures. And get rid of all NR tags on state land.

But when it comes to the act of killing, I am not interested in “feats of skill.” I am interested only in the humane killing and recovery of the dead animal. I practice so that the shot is the least remarkable part of hunting. If someone else wants to have you spot for him and make the wind call for him, I don’t care. My competition isn’t with some dumb animal or other hunters. It’s with myself.

And the reason that an “iron sights only” hunting area doesn’t appeal to me is that it is a totally futile gesture that will do nothing to solve the problem. If you can’t fix the systemic problems, then you have to accept crowding or limit tags. All these special seasons - be they archery, muzzleloader, iron sights - are just attempts to keep selling access to more people than are actually sustainable. It’s like Disney selling “skip the line passes” so that the rich don’t have to wait in line with the hoi polloi.

When it comes to public land hunting, my sympathies are with the average resident hunter who wants to go into the local lands to hunt. I want sustainable local traditions of hunting open to the common man. And I want the average person to be able to kill humanely, recover dead animals, and eat them.

Didn't you make a thread asking people to tell you why a western hunt would be worth your time and then poopooed most the reasons? It's clear you're looking at something you're not all that interested in doing through the lens of Virgina (or wherever out east) whitetail hunting. Mule Deer are not the same as eastern whitetails that the game agencies treat like varmints they cant kill enough of.

The dudes who actually hunt out west and value it that have different takes are at least worth considering.

 

[IDMNT17]

I guess I did not realize using open sights was such a difficult thing to do.

I agree its not and that's my hang up. This does nothing to address the real issue. Some complain about about "long range hunting" with scoped rifles. These will be the same people will complain about people taking long shots with non scoped rifles. There will be just as much wound/loss. Successful harvest % will be the same.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Is it easier or harder to place your shot where you want it to go with a good scope or a good set of iron sights?

Depends on the situation. Scoped rifles that are set up for dialing turrets, shooting prone, suppressor, etc. are not great for taking standing shots. I would much rather have a light rifle with iron sights.

 

[IDMNT17]

You'll never stop folks from lobbing rounds at things that are outta range. Be it ducks, deer or elk. But how many folks do you know of that could make, say a 300yrd open sight shot? How many folks do you know of that could do that same shot with their normal scoped hunting rifle?

I agree there's less currently that could make that shot with open sights. But... people adjust. Hunter's will just have peeps that dial or what not. I mean take look at these high end muzzleloaders guys are using. Like it has been stated previously they are like a one shot centerfires that adhere to muzzleloader regs. Guys are shooting critters at 300 plus no problem. I just believe this does nothing to solve the problem. This just feels like this has been proposed by a few hunters that haven't been successful and by doing this they believe there will be big bucks up every canyon, draw, etc...

 

[wind gypsy]

I agree there's less currently that could make that shot with open sights. But... people adjust. Hunter's will just have peeps that dial or what not. I mean take look at these high end muzzleloaders guys are using. Like it has been stated previously they are like a one shot centerfires that adhere to muzzleloader regs. Guys are shooting critters at 300 plus no problem.

Peeps that dial dont make it easy to discern a deer at 300 yards in brush through a peep/globe/crosshair. I thought i had a pretty good site setup and beyond 200 on deer aint happening for me and even that is probably too far without further practice. There's a bunch of people shooting animals at 800+ yards too but it's not the norm or "no problem" just because it turns out ok some of the time.

I just believe this does nothing to solve the problem. This just feels like this has been proposed by a few hunters that haven't been successful and by doing this they believe there will be big bucks up every canyon, draw, etc...

Depends what one identifies as the problem? I haven't seen anyone thinking its a magic bullet but it could contribute to incremental improvement to huntable buck populations if most hunters have to get inside 200 yards of them. People want to say hunters dont impact population.. Ok, so are hunters happy seeing 30 does/fawns and a few juvenile bucks on a hunt? Sift through the does and fawns to find a trophy forky.

 

[philcox]

Reality is that without NR hunters, resident opportunity goes away. Don't kid yourself into thinking residents (in any of the popular "western states") are willing to make up the funding difference that will be lost if you exclude NR. Hunting is politics, and money rules politics. Sad reality.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Reality is that without NR hunters, resident opportunity goes away. Don't kid yourself into thinking residents (in any of the popular "western states") are willing to make up the funding difference that will be lost if you exclude NR. Hunting is politics, and money rules politics. Sad reality.

100 %. I’m actually thrilled about the increased revenue for NR tag apps. I think Idaho has been selling it’s tags off at Rollback Prices for far too long. We were the cheapest NR state in the West for a long time. Hopefully IDFG will use the revenue to preserve habitat, to prevent more development on the winter range, build more wildlife overpasses, re-seeding projects, etc etc

Since you NR hunters now have to buy an Idaho hunting license anyway and a wolf tag costs less than a tank of gas, we expect to see you all out here helping us beat back the lions and wolves ! Then we’ll all have more buck and bull tags to fight over.

 

[philcox]

100 %. I’m actually thrilled about the increased revenue for NR tag apps. I think Idaho has been selling it’s tags off at Rollback Prices for far too long. We were the cheapest NR state in the West for a long time. Hopefully IDFG will use the revenue to preserve habitat, to prevent more development on the winter range, build more wildlife overpasses, re-seeding projects, etc etc

Since you NR hunters now have to buy an Idaho hunting license anyway and a wolf tag costs less than a tank of gas, we expect to see you all out here helping us beat back the wolves ! Then we’ll all have more buck and bull tags to fight over.

Yep. No reason to not have one (Wolf tag) in the pocket. I think the ID move for NR is gonna be positive (the fiasco over the last few years had kept me away, now I'll try again). I like the idea of having to have a bit of skin in the game (license) win or lose.

 

[idahodave]

Successful harvest % will be the same.

Wanna bet?

Let me state for the record I fully support the idea. I’m all for anything that continues to allow general season hunts for the masses. I’ve killed elk with a bow, MZ, and rifle.

I don’t much care so long as I get to keep hunting. Most of us in Idaho feel that way,….which is why IDFG is trying this. Game is a finite resource and they are trying to maximize hunter opportunity while preserving that finite resource.

It’s that simple. If you can’t see that, you’re either being deliberately obtuse or you were dropped on your head as a baby. Nobody is being MADE to hunt with irons. Lots of other options across the state. If it works well (more/larger game)…expect it to take hold. If not, they’ll likely abandon it.

Maybe wait and give it a chance?

Dave

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Wanna bet?

Let me state for the record I fully support the idea. I’m all for anything that continues to allow general season hunts for the masses. I’ve killed elk with a bow, MZ, and rifle.

I don’t much care so long as I get to keep hunting. Most of us in Idaho feel that way,….which is why IDFG is trying this. Game is a finite resource and they are trying to maximize hunter opportunity while preserving that finite resource.

It’s that simple. If you can’t see that, you’re either being deliberately obtuse or you were dropped on your head as a baby. Nobody is being MADE to hunt with irons. Lots of other options across the state. If it works well (more/larger game)…expect it to take hold. If not, they’ll likely abandon it.

Maybe wait and give it a chance?

Dave

And what will you do when this idea has zero effect on the replenishment rate for animals? Go to muzzleloader or archery only?

The herds aren’t declining because hunters are killing too many mature deer. Making changes that don’t address root causes is pointless.

 

[HuntHarder]

And what will you do when this idea has zero effect on the replenishment rate for animals? Go to muzzleloader or archery only?

The herds aren’t declining because hunters are killing too many mature deer. Making changes that don’t address root causes is pointless.

So do nothing and hope it reverses course? While hunter success is a small fraction of what affects animal populations, something is better than nothing.

Do you know what the main factors are, that are effecting Idaho's game populations?

 

[idahodave]

And what will you do when this idea has zero effect on the replenishment rate for animals? Go to muzzleloader or archery only?

The herds aren’t declining because hunters are killing too many mature deer. Making changes that don’t address root causes is pointless.

I was unaware you were a big-game biologist and/or had a crystal ball.

Tell me more about your experience managing western wildlife. I’m eager to learn from someone as well versed as yourself about the subject. If you’re gonna contradict an agency full of men and women that have dedicated their professional lives to hunting and wildlife populations, then I bet you have a ton of experience in this field?