How to end NR Wyoming wilderness ban?

[wapitibob]

What’s the Latin term for trespassing because your GPS is off? Or the corner wasn’t surveyed correctly?

How do planes get permission to fly over all that private land

This 8 pages is following the same dipshittery as every other nr wilderness law thread over the last 15 years.

 

[tdhanses]

so much for Rinella and internet forum lawyers

Just like Roe v Wade would never be overturned?

 

[tdhanses]

The ticket would just say alleged violation of WY Statute 23-2-401(a).

Haha, did you get one

 

[johnnycake]

Actually in this case NR were drawing in excess of 30 tags almost every year. And this year they drew over 40 IIRC. So this is a reduction in NR tags. Yes some go to outfitters but honestly the pie goes to whomever shows up to eat it.

I'm aware, and I'm aware of that line of argument that RHAK and others used in the proposals and comments. Reread what I wrote. The fact that for some years the random draw happened to spit out a large number of NR applicants is just pure luck. It was not a guaranteed NR allocation. The folks pissed that NRs happened to get lucky should have proposed a cap on NR successful applications (ie, no more than 10% could go to NRs, but the draw might still result in 0 successful NRs). I even wouldn't have been so pissed about this if it were just a clean NR allocation without requiring a guide. But instead the board of game gave another welfare cookie to guides and carved a guaranteed 14.67% NR allocation for a hunt with sub 4% draw odds.

The Wyoming wilderness rule is horseshit. The AK must be guided/2nd degree kindred for grizz, sheep, and goats is horseshit. And any allocation to guided only permits is horseshit.

 

[tdhanses]

The Latin term that our legal system utilizes for land ownership translates to (roughly) ownership from heaven to hell. Meaning all the way down and all the way up. If the corner crossing case went the other way, it would be back in court for air travel. That case could only be ruled one way based on modern society. So no, not grey at all. But you're entit lo ed to think it is.

So do we own land in China? Since the planet isn’t flat

 

[wapitibob]

Just like Roe v Wade would never be overturned?

Somebody start calling lawyers, if they find one that'll sue the State of Wyoming to overturn a Statute that benefits the states outfitters, let me know. I'll send $100 for the cause.

 

[tdhanses]

I'm aware, and I'm aware of that line of argument that RHAK and others used in the proposals and comments. Reread what I wrote. The fact that for some years the random draw happened to spit out a large number of NR applicants is just pure luck. It was not a guaranteed NR allocation. The folks pissed that NRs happened to get lucky should have proposed a cap on NR successful applications (ie, no more than 10% could go to NRs, but the draw might still result in 0 successful NRs). I even wouldn't have been so pissed about this if it were just a clean NR allocation without requiring a guide. But instead the board of game gave another welfare cookie to guides and carved a guaranteed 14.67% NR allocation for a hunt with sub 4% draw odds.

The Wyoming wilderness rule is horseshit. The AK must be guided/2nd degree kindred for grizz, sheep, and goats is horseshit. And any allocation to guided only permits is horseshit.

He’s probably a guide.

 

[tdhanses]

Start calling lawyers, when you find one that'll sue the State of Wyoming to overturn a Statute that benefits the states outfitters, let me know. I'll send $100 for the cause.

Naw not my fight, just stating cases get reversed all the time, at some point they’ll offend someone that doesn’t care about the cost.

I’m letting all my WY points expire, the future isn’t good for NR as all tags I bet are seriously limited in the next 10 yrs there anyway. So I’ll give other NR more opportunity.

I bet at some point I’ll be able to just buy a tag through an outfitter, so pref pts would be a waste as well if I do ever want to go back.

But fact is WY is an Outfitter welfare state, same as a few other states.

 

[FAAFO]

I'm aware, and I'm aware of that line of argument that RHAK and others used in the proposals and comments. Reread what I wrote. The fact that for some years the random draw happened to spit out a large number of NR applicants is just pure luck. It was not a guaranteed NR allocation. The folks pissed that NRs happened to get lucky should have proposed a cap on NR successful applications (ie, no more than 10% could go to NRs, but the draw might still result in 0 successful NRs). I even wouldn't have been so pissed about this if it were just a clean NR allocation without requiring a guide. But instead the board of game gave another welfare cookie to guides and carved a guaranteed 14.67% NR allocation for a hunt with sub 4% draw odds.

The Wyoming wilderness rule is horseshit. The AK must be guided/2nd degree kindred for grizz, sheep, and goats is horseshit. And any allocation to guided only permits is horseshit.

At least there’s a cap now. And at a fair % especially that every year for the last 12 the trend was more NR applicants for that hunt. So you didn’t get your 10% but it’s 15%. You going to cry if you shit gold and wish it was diamonds? Did you get your comments in?


Be careful what you wish for. The guide law for S/G/BB isn’t all bad. Can you imagine how crowded it would be if anyone could be out there just by buying a tag. Look what they had to do out there in farewell for moose. And look at what the demand has done for transporters for moose. Priced out the residents. Get rid of the guide law and you’ll see sheep transports get just as crazy.

Lots of bullshit laws I don’t agree with, but can’t be too angry about now because it helps limit abuse of a resource because our game agencies are slow to react.

 

[FAAFO]

He’s probably a guide.

Residents first, always!

 

[tdhanses]

At least there’s a cap now. And at a fair % especially that every year for the last 12 the trend was more NR applicants for that hunt. So you didn’t get your 10% but it’s 15%. You going to cry if you shit gold and wish it was diamonds? Did you get your comments in?


Be careful what you wish for. The guide law for S/G/BB isn’t all bad. Can you imagine how crowded it would be if anyone could be out there just by buying a tag. Look what they had to do out there in farewell for moose. And look at what the demand has done for transporters for moose. Priced out the residents. Get rid of the guide law and you’ll see sheep transports get just as crazy.

Lots of bullshit laws I don’t agree with, but can’t be too angry about now because it helps limit abuse of a resource because our game agencies are slow to react.

Yeah, I wish all outfitters would lose their licenses on federal lands as well, talk about abusing a federal resource, even if that then meant no NR could hunt them. Even if we couldn’t stop that at least tax 75% of their revenue and limit the number of clients they can have to a handful a year.

 

[johnnycake]

Be careful what you wish for. The guide law for S/G/BB isn’t all bad. Can you imagine how crowded it would be if anyone could be out there just by buying a tag.

Nah, it's horseshit. Ditch the guide requirement and the transporters will still give the guides priority since they are more reliable repeat business. But the real thing that will happen is a grundle of NRs will buy a ton of tags, plan to do DIY, and then never put themselves in a realistic position to actually kill the animals. I bet harvest numbers see little increase if any.

And with how much fellow residents bitch about brown bears killing all the moose/caribou, but then by the numbers residents kill very few brown bears... You'd think residents would be all too happy to make it easier for folks to kill brown bears. But instead, it's a +$15k guided trip for an interior grizz and +$40k for a brownie (without mentioning the whopping mountain of shit that is the 33% NR guided allocation on Kodiak)

 

[tdhanses]

Nah, it's horseshit. Ditch the guide requirement and the transporters will still give the guides priority since they are more reliable repeat business. But the real thing that will happen is a grundle of NRs will buy a ton of tags, plan to do DIY, and then never put themselves in a realistic position to actually kill the animals. I bet harvest numbers see little increase if any.

And with how much fellow residents bitch about brown bears killing all the moose/caribou, but then by the numbers residents kill very few brown bears... You'd think residents would be all too happy to make it easier for folks to kill brown bears. But instead, it's a +$15k guided trip for an interior grizz and +$40k for a brownie (without mentioning the whopping mountain of shit that is the 33% NR guided allocation on Kodiak)

It’s nice to see residents actually see that outfitters are the bigger issue then diy NR hunters.

If all outfitters were removed, we’d see actual harvest numbers by NR’s tank everywhere.

 

[johnnycake]

It’s nice to see residents actually see that outfitters are the bigger issue then diy NR hunters.

If all outfitters were removed, we’d see actual harvest numbers by NR’s tank everywhere.

I agree, and it's the main problem I have with RHAK---they want to limit NRs based on success rates, not opportunity. Which it's nonsense for things like sheep. Of course NRs are going to have higher success rates than residents when they are required to be guided! But I'm definitely in the minority up here on this.

 

[Bubblehide]

So do we own land in China? Since the planet isn’t flat

Naw, the planet being flat isn't my thing. No offense it it's your thing.

 

[FAAFO]

Nah, it's horseshit. Ditch the guide requirement and the transporters will still give the guides priority since they are more reliable repeat business. But the real thing that will happen is a grundle of NRs will buy a ton of tags, plan to do DIY, and then never put themselves in a realistic position to actually kill the animals. I bet harvest numbers see little increase if any.

And with how much fellow residents bitch about brown bears killing all the moose/caribou, but then by the numbers residents kill very few brown bears... You'd think residents would be all too happy to make it easier for folks to kill brown bears. But instead, it's a +$15k guided trip for an interior grizz and +$40k for a brownie (without mentioning the whopping mountain of shit that is the 33% NR guided allocation on Kodiak)

Im not worried about the transporters flying exclusively for outfitters which isn’t that many . I’m worried about the transporters who fly resident huntersz. And I’m not worried about harvest. Access, crowding etc will be an issue. There is already crowding issues due to population decline in so many species.


I couldn’t get on board with NR hunting brown bears. Sow harvest would be especially high in a lot of areas. Yes we have high brown bear populations in some areas but not as many as you would believe. Brown bears have a slow recovery (as all bears). Hell our brown bears near PWS and blacks haven’t recovered from the record snow over 10 years ago. Residents have a high sow harvest. Have you ever killed a brown bear sow? If you’re a resident and brown bear hunted at all I bet you have.

You playing the welfare card. What industry doesn’t have welfare?

 

[johnnycake]

Im not worried about the transporters flying exclusively for outfitters which isn’t that many . I’m worried about the transporters who fly resident huntersz. And I’m not worried about harvest. Access, crowding etc will be an issue. There is already crowding issues due to population decline in so many species.


I couldn’t get on board with NR hunting brown bears. Sow harvest would be especially high in a lot of areas. Yes we have high brown bear populations in some areas but not as many as you would believe. Brown bears have a slow recovery (as all bears). Hell our brown bears near PWS and blacks haven’t recovered from the record snow over 10 years ago. Residents have a high sow harvest. Have you ever killed a brown bear sow? If you’re a resident and brown bear hunted at all I bet you have.

You playing the welfare card. What industry doesn’t have welfare?

Yep, I am a resident and yep I've killed a sow brown bear. Knew she was a sow when I pulled the trigger too. Still went over 9' and that area has plenty where she came from. You solve for your concerns by implementing metrics on how many bears/sows are sustainable to be killed in a season and then EO closure. Wait! That already happens!

I'm not going to get into a whataboutism debate. The guide requirement is still bullshit.

 

[FAAFO]

Yep, I am a resident and yep I've killed a sow brown bear. Knew she was a sow when I pulled the trigger too. Still went over 9' and that area has plenty where she came from. You solve for your concerns by implementing metrics on how many bears/sows are sustainable to be killed in a season and then EO closure. Wait! That already happens!

I'm not going to get into a whataboutism debate. The guide requirement is still bullshit.

why do you want to restrict hunters so much? The EO would happen so quick likely less bears will be taken.

Yeah the guide requirement is such “bullshit”. So is having to hire an engineer for my 6’ retaining wall this year. Or paying a lawyer to draft up some documents I could do myself. All forms of “welfare” and “bullshit”

Cry me a river and go jump in it. The guide requirement helps keep a key part of what we love about this state from being ruined. I know you know that Johnny.

 

[tdhanses]

why do you want to restrict hunters so much? The EO would happen so quick likely less bears will be taken.

Yeah the guide requirement is such “bullshit”. So is having to hire an engineer for my 6’ retaining wall this year. Or paying a lawyer to draft up some documents I could do myself. All forms of “welfare” and “bullshit”

Cry me a river and go jump in it. The guide requirement helps keep Alaska what we really do love about it. I know you know that.

Do you honestly think diy NR would be as succesful had they not been guided? Harvest rates by NR would tank.

All it helps is keep a certain industry afloat we could do without. If all outfitters went away it wouldn’t effect much other then them, maybe 2,000 jobs where people would have to find a different line of work (many of which are NR’s), it definitely wouldn’t tank the economy or way of life in AK for 99% of the population.

The state would still manage wildlife like they do today, you act like outfitters mange wildlife on a large scale, they do up the success of NR’s though.

 

[FAAFO]

Do you honestly think diy NR would be as succesful had they not been guided? Harvest rates by NR would tank.

What are the success rates of guided hunts?

It’s not about harvest, it’s about the quality of the hunt. Look at kodiak, getting ran over by NR is the only reason they changed it to 1 buck. They thought that would limit NR from coming up. They were wrong. Early Oct used to be slow for deer hunters on kodiak. Now it’s busier than ever. Everyone wants a piece. I was just there and even the air transporters are complaining how bad it is now. And it’s mostly NR.

The last thing we need is Rokslide Randy running all over shooting sows, sublegal sheep etc. Hell look at the “perceived” issue of NR hunting out of Kotz. Now it’s limited not only for NR hunters but non locals. Resident hunters got focked because of the NR “problem”

Fock that. I can see the merits of the guide requirement. At one time I thought it was all “bullshit” too. But as I see less and less country to hunt and more people I’m fricking thankful it’s in place now.