How to end NR Wyoming wilderness ban?

[tdhanses]

At least there’s a cap now. And at a fair % especially that every year for the last 12 the trend was more NR applicants for that hunt. So you didn’t get your 10% but it’s 15%. You going to cry if you shit gold and wish it was diamonds? Did you get your comments in?


Be careful what you wish for. The guide law for S/G/BB isn’t all bad. Can you imagine how crowded it would be if anyone could be out there just by buying a tag. Look what they had to do out there in farewell for moose. And look at what the demand has done for transporters for moose. Priced out the residents. Get rid of the guide law and you’ll see sheep transports get just as crazy.

Lots of bullshit laws I don’t agree with, but can’t be too angry about now because it helps limit abuse of a resource because our game agencies are slow to react.

Yeah, I wish all outfitters would lose their licenses on federal lands as well, talk about abusing a federal resource, even if that then meant no NR could hunt them. Even if we couldn’t stop that at least tax 75% of their revenue and limit the number of clients they can have to a handful a year.

 

[johnnycake]

Be careful what you wish for. The guide law for S/G/BB isn’t all bad. Can you imagine how crowded it would be if anyone could be out there just by buying a tag.

Nah, it's horseshit. Ditch the guide requirement and the transporters will still give the guides priority since they are more reliable repeat business. But the real thing that will happen is a grundle of NRs will buy a ton of tags, plan to do DIY, and then never put themselves in a realistic position to actually kill the animals. I bet harvest numbers see little increase if any.

And with how much fellow residents bitch about brown bears killing all the moose/caribou, but then by the numbers residents kill very few brown bears... You'd think residents would be all too happy to make it easier for folks to kill brown bears. But instead, it's a +$15k guided trip for an interior grizz and +$40k for a brownie (without mentioning the whopping mountain of shit that is the 33% NR guided allocation on Kodiak)

 

[tdhanses]

Nah, it's horseshit. Ditch the guide requirement and the transporters will still give the guides priority since they are more reliable repeat business. But the real thing that will happen is a grundle of NRs will buy a ton of tags, plan to do DIY, and then never put themselves in a realistic position to actually kill the animals. I bet harvest numbers see little increase if any.

And with how much fellow residents bitch about brown bears killing all the moose/caribou, but then by the numbers residents kill very few brown bears... You'd think residents would be all too happy to make it easier for folks to kill brown bears. But instead, it's a +$15k guided trip for an interior grizz and +$40k for a brownie (without mentioning the whopping mountain of shit that is the 33% NR guided allocation on Kodiak)

It’s nice to see residents actually see that outfitters are the bigger issue then diy NR hunters.

If all outfitters were removed, we’d see actual harvest numbers by NR’s tank everywhere.

 

[johnnycake]

It’s nice to see residents actually see that outfitters are the bigger issue then diy NR hunters.

If all outfitters were removed, we’d see actual harvest numbers by NR’s tank everywhere.

I agree, and it's the main problem I have with RHAK---they want to limit NRs based on success rates, not opportunity. Which it's nonsense for things like sheep. Of course NRs are going to have higher success rates than residents when they are required to be guided! But I'm definitely in the minority up here on this.

 

[Bubblehide]

So do we own land in China? Since the planet isn’t flat

Naw, the planet being flat isn't my thing. No offense it it's your thing.

 

[johnnycake]

Im not worried about the transporters flying exclusively for outfitters which isn’t that many . I’m worried about the transporters who fly resident huntersz. And I’m not worried about harvest. Access, crowding etc will be an issue. There is already crowding issues due to population decline in so many species.


I couldn’t get on board with NR hunting brown bears. Sow harvest would be especially high in a lot of areas. Yes we have high brown bear populations in some areas but not as many as you would believe. Brown bears have a slow recovery (as all bears). Hell our brown bears near PWS and blacks haven’t recovered from the record snow over 10 years ago. Residents have a high sow harvest. Have you ever killed a brown bear sow? If you’re a resident and brown bear hunted at all I bet you have.

You playing the welfare card. What industry doesn’t have welfare?

Yep, I am a resident and yep I've killed a sow brown bear. Knew she was a sow when I pulled the trigger too. Still went over 9' and that area has plenty where she came from. You solve for your concerns by implementing metrics on how many bears/sows are sustainable to be killed in a season and then EO closure. Wait! That already happens!

I'm not going to get into a whataboutism debate. The guide requirement is still bullshit.

 

[tdhanses]

why do you want to restrict hunters so much? The EO would happen so quick likely less bears will be taken.

Yeah the guide requirement is such “bullshit”. So is having to hire an engineer for my 6’ retaining wall this year. Or paying a lawyer to draft up some documents I could do myself. All forms of “welfare” and “bullshit”

Cry me a river and go jump in it. The guide requirement helps keep Alaska what we really do love about it. I know you know that.

Do you honestly think diy NR would be as succesful had they not been guided? Harvest rates by NR would tank.

All it helps is keep a certain industry afloat we could do without. If all outfitters went away it wouldn’t effect much other then them, maybe 2,000 jobs where people would have to find a different line of work (many of which are NR’s), it definitely wouldn’t tank the economy or way of life in AK for 99% of the population.

The state would still manage wildlife like they do today, you act like outfitters mange wildlife on a large scale, they do up the success of NR’s though.

 

[tdhanses]

What are the success rates of guided hunts?

It’s not about harvest, it’s about the quality of the hunt. Look at kodiak, getting ran over by NR is the only reason they changed it to 1 buck. They thought that would limit NR from coming up. They were wrong. Early Oct used to be slow for deer hunters on kodiak. Now it’s busier than ever. Everyone wants a piece.

The last thing we need is Rokslide Randy running all over shooting sows, sublegal sheep etc. look at the “perceived” issue of NR hunting out of Kotz. Now it’s limited not only for NR hunters but non locals.

Fock that. I can see the merits of the guide requirement. At one time I thought it was all “bullshit” too. But as I see less and less country to hunt and more people I’m fricking thankful it’s in place now.

Ok and you think quality would decrease? 90% of those that go on outfitted hunts wouldn’t get more then half a mile off a trail, do you see NR’s all over hunting moose?

Most NR’s would never step foot on Kodiak alone, without guides you would see a vast reduction in NR’s even trying.

Fact is, AK is a dream for most NR’s but put them in the environment alone and their fear will take care of them going far, some would be very successful but the majority would be too out of shape or scared to make it work.

Also there are NR tag quotas for a reason to limit any overrun, guide aren’t keeping NR in check, if there are only so many tags there are only so many and the success rate will probably be 5%.

If outfitters went away there would be fewer NR in most places. You seem to think without outfitters NR’s will have unlimited access and flood areas.

 

[Lawnboi]

Who is this Randy guy and what did he do?

 

[StupidLightweight]

Wow, I take the kids trick or treating for a few hours, and this thread goes full Sarah Palin!

 

[johnnycake]

why do you want to restrict hunters so much? The EO would happen so quick likely less bears will be taken.

You do know that all of the registration brown bear hunts already have management plans that dictate a maximum number of harvest limit and limit of sows in a given period, right? Same as goats. Won't change a thing if you let NRs waste their $1000 on buying a tag "just in case". And the interior areas that have very healthy levels of grizz (a huge area allows you to kill 2) can absolutely sustain higher harvest.

And it's really funny to see the supporters of the guide requirement when years like last year showed guided clients killed just about as many sublegal rams as residents.

 

[Steve O]

Listening to a podcast toady and they brought up the idea of states offering reciprocity in reference to hunting laws. The example that caught my attention was the Wyoming ban on non resident hunters to be on federally designated wilderness, alone. What neighboring states like Montana and Idaho could do to combat this is pass a mandate that basically says 'non residents from another state are subjected to the same mandates that exist in their home state'. By doing this, Montana residents could hunt Idaho wilderness and vice versa, but since Wyoming does not allow folks from other states to hunt 'their'(our?) wilderness, they would not be allowed to hunt the wilderness areas in either Montana or Idaho.

To state the obvious; if Wyoming residents wanted to continue to enjoy the same benefit of hunting wilderness in other states, they could go to their own game commission to get the ban overturned in Wyoming. Thus creating a situation where they control their own access to wilderness areas in other states.

Full disclosure, I have never hunted Wyoming, but will some day and I damn sure wouldn't hire a guide to hunt so as it stands now hunting the wilderness there is out of the question.

My opinion is obviously self serving, but for the life of me I can't poke a hole in this, so I am interested in the discussion.

Your big mistake is listening to that cancerous podcast.

 

[Ten Bears]

Looks like Buzz has a new profile on here.

 

[Lawnboi]

I wish I could be more involved and fly to meetings in Alaska but I’m too busy begging for food at the stop light.

 

[johnnycake]

You do know what happens the following year when the quota goes over right? Do you know what % of the quota is actually the management goal?

That’s a great data point on ONE year that the guided matched the resident. Did you know on 3 of those guided hunts the client was the only one with a ticket because they shot the wrong ram?

Do you honestly believe if sheep opened to every NR sublegal take wouldn’t skyrocket?

Hell a resident military guy who just moved here shot a dall sheep ewe thinking he shot the world record goat. How’s that for a stat. I know i know. It was just one year like your pathetic sublegal stat. Well last year same hunt TWO dall sheep ewes were killed by residents thinking they were mountain goats. How often will that happen if we open it to NR? You know how many times a NR has shot a dall sheep ewe thinking it was a mt goat? ZERO.

If you want to cherry pick bad actions, there's a wealth of awful to pick from the guiding industry.

And no, I really don't think sublegal ram take would skyrocket. I think the state would take in millions of dollars after PR matching, enabling us to better fund wildlife law enforcement, biologists, etc. And year after year most of those NRs would go home with uncut tags, many having quit very early on once they realize just how daunting the task is.

And sublegal ram take by guided clients happens every damn year. And is often not that different than resident sublegal take.
Which makes sense given how many inexperienced NRs are being farmed out as assistant guides under a master guide license. Because the justifications for the guide requirement are bullshit.

 

[Gobbler36]

Yes…so corrupt to limit the activities one can do on 5 percent of the states public land. This should really rally people to the cause. If this is corruption let’s triage it with the corruption that blatantly occurs outside of this minor inconvenience…I’m guessing it would be pretty far down the list on what states are doing that can be classified as “corrupt.”

If it’s not corruption that a state restricts certain activities on federal land for a group of people that helps pay for said land all for the benefit of a lobbying group than I guess I don’t know what corruption is.

Do you enjoy hunting federally designated wilderness areas in other states?

 

[IDVortex]

I got to page 8 and got bored reading the shit show. But what i gathered, ID should just ban all NR. That way the 2 or 3 WY hunters who come here will look at changing their laws. And it'll limit how many folks realize how much of a POS this state and move here.

 

[tdhanses]

Yes quality of the hunt would decrease. Example: haul road caribou. Example kodiak deer hunts. Used to never see other hunters on your fly in kodiak hunt. Not anymore

Are you a guide? Clients are all different experience levels. There’s a lot that go guided for everything but also a lot that do not except only where required. We can’t carry them up the mountain. They still have to do it.

Most NR would never step foot on kodiak? Tell me you know nothing about alaska without telling me you know nothing about alaska

Yeah I get it AK is the dream for a lot. Even more reason to find ways to limit NR. We need more restrictions. And they are coming. The best part is is the NR DIY hunter is going to get F’d because he doesn’t show up. Just complains.

Guides are definitely keeping NR sheep, mt goat and Brown bear in check. Proof is in the pudding. You obviously know nothing about Alaska but here’s a fun fact. alaska has unlimited NR sheep tags and BB tags. Yep. What keeps it in check???

If the requirement for an outfitter went way we would have way more NR. Fact. And it doesn’t matter because it won’t happen. In a perfect world I would like to see NR go guided for everything at this point. What state has unlimited NR moose tags? Alaska does and it’s time for it to stop.

So get rid of outfitters and guides and limit sheep and bb tags for NR’s, pretty easy.

 

[Gobbler36]

free market capitalism
Eliminate guide and outfitter welfare in all states and the ones that stay afloat will do so because of a good service and reputation
Prices would likely come to be reasonable and some people would try to tackle a DIY sheep or a wilderness hunt in WY realize how hard it is and return again and pay for a guide to have a better chance at success

The guide industry doesn’t need to go away just quit getting subsidized by the states and be forced to run a good business to stay in business

 

[johnnycake]

First we need to get rid of attorneys

You know what's amazing? You AREN'T required to hire an attorney to write a contract, represent yourself in court, or write your will.