Hot New Woods Defense Pistol

[treillw]

I bought some online (there a lots of options) and a bunch locally (Acme and another brand)

I think these would be worth considering, although I haven't bought any as I still have over 1,000 of the others I already purchased.

9mm TC 148 gr. " The Outdoorsman" per 400

In-Stock 9mm TC 148 gr. per 400 (sized .356) OAL 0.642, Meplat 0.212, No crimp groove

rimrockbullets.com

Should add: Above I said "penetration is similar". Should clarify that's comparing 45 Super, and 10mm to 9mm 147+p. My 44 mag 320 hardcast handloads are in a class by themselves. I'd guess 2x the penetration of the others pretty easily.

Curious, how are you doing your penetration testing?

 

[treillw]

I bought some online (there a lots of options) and a bunch locally (Acme and another brand)

I think these would be worth considering, although I haven't bought any as I still have over 1,000 of the others I already purchased.

9mm TC 148 gr. " The Outdoorsman" per 400

In-Stock 9mm TC 148 gr. per 400 (sized .356) OAL 0.642, Meplat 0.212, No crimp groove

rimrockbullets.com

Should add: Above I said "penetration is similar". Should clarify that's comparing 45 Super, and 10mm to 9mm 147+p. My 44 mag 320 hardcast handloads are in a class by themselves. I'd guess 2x the penetration of the others pretty easily.

Its cool to have found buffalo bore's source for projectiles. Anyone know who makes Underwood's cast lead bullets?

 

[Thegman]

Curious, how are you doing your penetration testing?

Nothing too scientific. Wood, paper and steel. Years ago I wrote a simple excel program predicting penetration in wood based on mass, velocity, and meplat diameter. The program modeled my actual testing pretty well so still works to give a good SWAG about penetration based on those parameters.

Haven't used it for a long time.. I'll take a look at it and see what it predicts for 9, 10, 45 and 44.

Guessing from the past it's 9mm, 45 Super...10mm....................44 mag. Although I've seen gelatin testing where it was 10mm...9mm,45super............... I think those three are pretty close.

 

[Thegman]

Just opened up that Excel spreadsheet. The order above is about right. My 44 loads according to the program get only about 30% more penetration rather than 100% more as I thought. I'm still thinking they do better than 30%. 9, 45 Super/ACP are really close. 10mm maybe 10% more than those two.

But again, I've seen test results showing those reversed.

...And I'm sure my program is at least as accurate as the climate modeling has been, so far, fwiw.

I'll look for that gelatin testing, but in the meantime, this was kind of interesting, and reminded me how well the Federal 147 FMJ FP seem to penetrate.

Bottom line, IMO. If you want an autoloader for woods carry, pick a 45/10/9 you like and shoot well and live long and prosper. There's just not that much difference.

 

[Thegman]

I think this is the gelatin tests I had seen. If you scroll down, there are 9m, 40sw, 45+p and 45 Super tests as well. 9,10,45S all pretty similar with regard to penetration.

Underwood 10mm Hard Cast in Clear Ballistics Gel

www.1911forum.com

This guy did something different, but found about the same.

Inexpensive Methods of Testing Bullet Penetration by Old N Bold

Old N Bold offers an inexpensive way to test bullet penetration. Sheetrock layers are relatively inexpensive, easy to use, and consistent.

www.ammoland.com

I've done and seen enough of these tests that the 9mm seems to make the most sense for me when also accounting for weight, "shootability" and capacity.

Okay, I've beaten this dead horse. I'm finished...I promise.

 

[Beendare]

A nice woods gun….is a contradiction.

I packed a .357 revolver through thick and thin chasing hog dogs for year. You should see the SW Shield I use on hunts after just a few years in the woods.

My take; you don’t need a Staccato priced pistol in the woods….and if you did it would get beat up pretty quick.

FWIW, I put a apex kit in my 9mm Shield and it shoots lights out never fail even with hardcast ammo.
EDIT 7/25- NOT TRUE, my Shield does not function perfectly with ALL HC ammo. The Buffalo bore +P 147g I have now hangs up on at least one per magazine. I have since gone to back to my stock G19 that eats all of these HC rounds.

Plus it's thin and I hardly know it's there. Beat it up- so what- thats what its for- its a $400 gun.

I do swap it out for a G20 on the Ak islands where I‘ve run into Brown Bears on every trip.
-
I get wanting a really nice pistol- just not for a woods gun. Have you seen the Bull 2011’s?

 

[MattB]

Just opened up that Excel spreadsheet. The order above is about right. My 44 loads according to the program get only about 30% more penetration rather than 100% more as I thought. I'm still thinking they do better than 30%. 9, 45 Super/ACP are really close. 10mm maybe 10% more than those two.

But again, I've seen test results showing those reversed.

...And I'm sure my program is at least as accurate as the climate modeling has been, so far, fwiw.

I'll look for that gelatin testing, but in the meantime, this was kind of interesting, and reminded me how well the Federal 147 FMJ FP seem to penetrate.

Bottom line, IMO. If you want an autoloader for woods carry, pick a 45/10/9 you like and shoot well and live long and prosper. There's just not that much difference.

I believe that it was Buffalo board that listed their most potent 9mm offering as significantly out penetrating their most potent 10 lmm round.

 

[BrBa]

My experience with 147 gr 9mm is the longer the barrel, the better for accuracy. My P365 and VP9SK both shoot 'ok' with 147 gr. Groups are about half the size at 25 feet with 124 gr. By comparison, my 4" PPQ shoots 124 and 147 equally well, with maybe a slight edge to the 147. Something to think about.

 

[Thegman]

I believe that it was Buffalo board that listed their most potent 9mm offering as significantly out penetrating their most potent 10 lmm round.

And that video I linked showing how well that 124 FMJ +p+ penetrated was surprising to me; I'd not seen that before. Makes me wonder if that might be a little better than the 147s...??? Bottom line, most are probably adequate, some might be even a little more adequate.

 

[Mark.c]

HK45c/HK USP 45c are a robust duty pistols that can shoot the hot .45 loads. Pricey though.

 

[Wrench]

I'm completely content with my 43x loaded with 147 berry's hybrids. That's after I smoked a bear in the face with my 10mm.

 

[twofer]

I am moving to Montana soon, and will be spending a lot of time outdoors in grizzly bear country, where I will be packing a handgun of some type as a final defense against a bear attack. I know the question of "what is the best caliber to carry for bear protection" spawns endless debates. Phil Shoemaker, an Alaska Master Guide with a lot of experience around bears, including himself stopping a charge, recommends the two most important criteria for stopping a bear charge are accurate shot placement and good penetration. In other words, a hand canon that you can't shoot well due to recoil is not the best option.

Additionally, Ammoland statistics, where even the 9mm had a very high success rate for driving away an attacking bear, indicate that most any handgun properly deployed will get the job done, Again, meaning that hitting the bear's vitals is more important than shear power.

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks - 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective

There are now 170 documented cases, with 146 of those cases where handguns only are fired in defense against bear attacks. Handguns are effective 98% of the time.

www.ammoland.com

In light of the above information, I am currently shopping for .40 S&W as the best balance for myself of accurate shot placement and good penetration in a high-stress, fast-moving situation.

JMHO

 

[Welldone]

Here’s my woods gun. AlphaFoxtrot 10mm with Holosun and Surefire rail light.Super quality build that’s DLC’d . Very smooth!!!

 

[Brock63]

Not sure why everyone is so up on 10mm...it is a 40 caliber and has little faster velocities due to lower grain weight...and has more magazine capacity than a revolver...so a gun on a hip or chest rig with more capacity is better than nothing. If big cats, black bear, coyotes, wild dogs, etc.....then think is fine. Myself, I prefer a 45 caliber...as I shoot them accurately and with right bullet construction and a little extra speed will produce bigger holes with better penetration than what most are carrying. Well if my observations afield are any example...most are carrying either FMJ or JHP designed for target/military use or self defense. These are not designed for thicker skinned and heavier boned potentially dangerous animals as a woods gun.
For that matter, a hard cast flat nosed bullet is going to be a great penetrator with lots of energy dumped and hold together unlike cup/core constructed JHP for self defense or light hunting.
When it comes to woods guns (which I assume means to defend self against aggressive animals or to finish a wounded game animal)....function, familiarity, and effect are most important to me.
I think that FN FNX45 you have is the perfect choice....if you are able to shoot it accurately under stress. You can shoot +P ammo in it as it sits....they are optic ready so can throw an red dot on there or something if desired. You can get a Wolf or DPM spring kit and buffer tube upgrade if want to go with stouter +P handloads or 45 Super loads....which is not as much to reduce recoil as it is to keep the slide from banging to the rear from the more powerful ammo. It is to protect your weapon more than to reduce recoil to you....in my opinion.
If the FN FNX45 is just not your thing....and want cool factor...then maybe a Kimber Rapide Scorpius 10mm....8+1 magazine and am sure there are magazine extenders to get you to 12+1.

​

FWIW...my carry gun hunting without bears or big cats commonplace...is Ruger Super Blackhawk 45 Colt loaded hot with Buffalo Bore Heavy 45 Colt +P Outdoorsman..... My out west carry in elk and mule deer territory is FN FNX45 with BBA +P Outdoorsman ammo as well with DPM spring kit and rod upgrade....if I was on Kodiak or near coast would carry the 45 Super loads from BBA.

 

[taskswap]

Not sure why everyone is so up on 10mm...

Maybe because the Glock 20 is a great gun? There are lots of other great guns, too, but that one is arguably also great so it's a really easy choice.

I don't know if you've talked to 270+ people in your field observations (the sample size required before that data becomes a statistically relevant) but if you want a counter data point I run Buffalo Bore hard-casts in my G20 when used as field protection.

Personally I don't understand the whole "caliber" argument in the first place. I've lately been carrying a 44-mag and even without +P ammo that's about double the energy of a typical equivalent 45. In my rifles I'm chambered in 7mm-08 and 30-06, both of which are way smaller in caliber than even a 10mm pistol round but they're still going to take down anything on 4 legs with the right shot placement. I'm not saying the FNX45 isn't also a very good option, just that we also shouldn't over-simplify these decisions.

That 45 colt is a sweet pistol any way you look at it, for sure.

 

[Brock63]

Maybe because the Glock 20 is a great gun? There are lots of other great guns, too, but that one is arguably also great so it's a really easy choice.

I don't know if you've talked to 270+ people in your field observations (the sample size required before that data becomes a statistically relevant) but if you want a counter data point I run Buffalo Bore hard-casts in my G20 when used as field protection.

Personally I don't understand the whole "caliber" argument in the first place. I've lately been carrying a 44-mag and even without +P ammo that's about double the energy of a typical equivalent 45. In my rifles I'm chambered in 7mm-08 and 30-06, both of which are way smaller in caliber than even a 10mm pistol round but they're still going to take down anything on 4 legs with the right shot placement. I'm not saying the FNX45 isn't also a very good option, just that we also shouldn't over-simplify these decisions.

That 45 colt is a sweet pistol any way you look at it, for sure.

I am old...so forgive me...hahaha. I like having a 45 vs a 40 (10mm) as all other things being close it makes a bigger hole. The Glock options are outstanding weapons...I just dont like the Glock trigger and few times I tried them felt like it was with 1911s back in my younger years in 80 and 90s....you get the handgun and then have to do all kinds of changes to make the trigger good, it to feed and eject reliably, help with muzzle jump, etc. I will say that likely more bears been stopped by a Glock 20.... than any other semi auto...as they just work when you squeeze trigger and are weather resistant for us sweating up that mountain or down in humid swamps.

QUestion....I thought there was a problem shooting cast bullets in a glock due to how the polygonal rifling in barrel? I dont know anyone that has actually shot them in theirs....but seen quite a few failed Glocks while shooting them in all the normal places online. I did hear of a replacement barrel being talked about.... My brother only carries Glocks and he really wants to carry Buffalo Bore hard cast in his but is sticking to the BARNES solid copper hollow points for now through BUffalo Bore.

 

[Beendare]

My ,45's really bang those steel plates....and they shoot well with low felt recoil.....but I'm in the penetration camp that thinks a CNS shot or breaking bones is the way to go. .

A 1,000# bear charging at you can take a lot more bullet energy than a human without phasing him.

 

[Beendare]

QUestion....I thought their was a problem shooting cast bullets in a glock due to how the polygonal rifling in barrel? I dont know anyone that has actually shot them in theirs....but seen quite a few failed Glocks while shooting them in all the normal places online.

Nope, thats BS.

I have over 600rds of 200g Double Tap and Underwood HC through my Bone stock G20
[actually not true, I changed sights]

I have shot over 300rds in one session. The barrel does discolor a bit but you can shoot it out with FMJ [and then clean it of course]

The Glock techs lump all HC bullets in one category- including home grown molded lead bullets which are the ones that can cause a lot of fouling. Many of the newer HC bullets are lubed now ...and some like underwood are fully jacketed. ITS NO ISSUE.

My stock G20 shoots lights out with Everything. [I have well over 1,000rds of various ammo down the tube- it's one of my favorite pistols]

I did have a bunch of buddies reading internet comments swapping out their barrels....and in almost every case the tighter chambers created FTF issues. They had to take it to a smith and swap springs, do a bunch of tweaking...and even then some modded G20's still won't function 100%.

Glock knows what they are doing.....keep it stock and clean it every 300-400rds and you will be fine. Some guys never clean their gun.

 

[Brock63]

Nope, thats BS.

I have over 600rds of 200g Double Tap and Underwood HC through my Bone stock G20
[actually not true, I changed sights]

I have shot over 300rds in one session. The barrel does discolor a bit but you can shoot it out with FMJ [and then clean it of course]

The Glock techs lump all HC bullets in one category- including home grown molded lead bullets which are the ones that can cause a lot of fouling. Many of the newer HC bullets are lubed now ...and some like underwood are fully jacketed. ITS NO ISSUE.

Good to know....I knew the regular SWC soft lead ones were not good....hell they foul up a barrel on about anything and require more frequent cleaning.......but everyone was also lumping the hardcasts...which by virture of the recipe is supposed to be as hard as the copper jackets on JHP and FMJ...so never made sense to me but didnt worry too much since not a Glock guy.
Will let my brother know that a true hardcast like Buffalo Bore or Underwood is fine....especially since if I remember right...Underwood coats their hardcasts witht hat cherry coating.
Thanks for info....

 

[taskswap]

I am old...so forgive me...hahaha. I like having a 45 vs a 40 (10mm) as all other things being close it makes a bigger hole. The Glock options are outstanding weapons...I just dont like the Glock trigger and few times I tried them felt like it was with 1911s back in my younger years in 80 and 90s....you get the handgun and then have to do all kinds of changes to make the trigger good, it to feed and eject reliably, help with muzzle jump, etc. I will say that likely more bears been stopped by a Glock 20.... than any other semi auto...as they just work when you squeeze trigger and are weather resistant for us sweating up that mountain or down in humid swamps.

QUestion....I thought there was a problem shooting cast bullets in a glock due to how the polygonal rifling in barrel? I dont know anyone that has actually shot them in theirs....but seen quite a few failed Glocks while shooting them in all the normal places online. I did hear of a replacement barrel being talked about.... My brother only carries Glocks and he really wants to carry Buffalo Bore hard cast in his but is sticking to the BARNES solid copper hollow points for now through BUffalo Bore.

I believe this is generally true but I also wonder if there was a specific (popular) hard-cast that caused early trouble and led to this whole rule. I never had an issue with BB's hard cast 220's in mine but then again my G20 is also a former police service duty pistol and while not "shot out" yet at all, the bore's definitely not new. Maybe that helps - I'm no armorer. You might also mention BB's "dangerous game mono metal" option if he wants another option? I haven't tried them myself but I've heard good things...