Help me decide next steps for my 13 year old

[eric1115]

Ok, long advice post so be forewarned.

@Formidilosus I would especially like your input on this.

My 13, almost 14 year old son has a somewhat cobbled together setup, a 7mm-08 Ruger American compact with a SFP 2-10x Minox ZX5. I handload 120 Ballistic Tips for it. He shoots it well enough, but there are some things about it that I dislike.

He is rail thin and small for his age, though he legit wears a size 10 boot and has hands that make me think he is going to end up tall. The compact stock fits him well still.

He is good to go with this setup out to 300 seated off his tripod, and I have no qualms with him putting that bullet into a deer or elk at that range. It's been reliable, though not dramatic killer at 100-250 for him so far. That BDC reticle is less than ideal beyond that; he's ok on steel out to 400ish, but I'm not inclined to let him shoot an animal that far. He has a desire to become a good rifleman, and I think he has the potential to do so.

Here are my main gripes and thoughts:
SFP BDC scope has to go. It's fine quality, but capped turrets and no zero stop have me very hesitant to let him dial it. I think a 6x SWFA is my inclination. I've been very pleased with the one on my .308 trainer/loaner.

7mm-08/120 NBT is a bit problematic. Form, do you have input on minimum velocity you would want to see on that bullet? It seems pretty hard/tough compared to most of the other NBT's I've seen. Not great BC, so it's going to bleed velocity pretty quick and get pushed around in the wind. Also the 120s are expensive-ish and hard to find. I think I'm already at (or above) what I want to be at for recoil for him.

I don't love the Ruger either. It works, but isn't inspiring.

This brings me to the following options (though if you see another feel free to suggest):

A: keep the Ruger, suck it up and find/buy more 120's. Swap to SWFA 6x. Let him practice long, keep him hunting short. Maybe revisit rifle when he's big enough to need full size stock.

B: keep the Ruger, switch from 120 to something easier to find and potentially more mid range elk capable (thinking 150 or 162 ELD perhaps). Swap to SWFA 6x. Increased recoil with heavy bullets, but could certainly load mild.

C: sell the Ruger, get fast twist .243 T3 and SWFA (or something else? So far I'm liking the Howa Mini 6mm ARC I got for his younger sister, but I think he is at/near a point where a little more beans is OK.)

D: Rokslide Special. Speaks for itself I suppose.

Budget is tight, he's the oldest of 6. All want to hunt, so I'm going to be buying a handful more kids' rifles. I want to do theirs right, and I want to do right by him with what I've learned over the last 3-4 years since we got him that rifle.

Gimme your best advice. Thanks in advance!

 

[Wrench]

Exposed turrets and kids are asking for trouble. For a sub 400 yard gun used to hit big critters.....no real benefit with a lot of risks. A capped or locked windage scope makes better sense....but at 14 who's running the data for them?


I'd buy bullets and a rangefinder and make them call shots on rocks.....a lot.

 

[Rob5589]

Good to 300 and sounds like he's killed stuff out to 250 with it. I really don't see why you're looking to change anything with the set up

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok, long advice post so be forewarned.

@Formidilosus I would especially like your input on this.

He has a desire to become a good rifleman, and I think he has the potential to do so.

This part is the most important. If that is the case he requires round counts under proper practice (it can still be fun, just follow good programming). This leads you straight to the answer.

7mm-08/120 NBT is a bit problematic. Form, do you have input on minimum velocity you would want to see on that bullet? It seems pretty hard/tough compared to most of the other NBT's I've seen. Not great BC, so it's going to bleed velocity pretty quick and get pushed around in the wind. Also the 120s are expensive-ish and hard to find. I think I'm already at (or above) what I want to be at for recoil for him.

So the 120gr NBT is a good bullet, however it is a good bullet because of how “tough” it is. It is not the most emphatic killer by far. The 150gr ELD-X and 162gr ELD- M and X are better bullets from a tissue disruption standpoint. However, recoil is greatly increased. I can almost guarantee you that the 7mm-08 and 120gr is already above what he should be shooting. Going heavier is a nonstarter.

This brings me to the following options (though if you see another feel free to suggest):

A: keep the Ruger, suck it up and find/buy more 120's. Swap to SWFA 6x. Let him practice long, keep him hunting short. Maybe revisit rifle when he's big enough to need full size stock.

This is objectively the second worst option.

B: keep the Ruger, switch from 120 to something easier to find and potentially more mid range elk capable (thinking 150 or 162 ELD perhaps). Swap to SWFA 6x. Increased recoil with heavy bullets, but could certainly load mild.

This is objectively the worst option. Increasing recoil in now way will increase his ability.

C: sell the Ruger, get fast twist .243 T3 and SWFA (or something else? So far I'm liking the Howa Mini 6mm ARC I got for his younger sister, but I think he is at/near a point where a little more beans is OK.)

This is ok, and much better than A or B. This really should be rifle number 2.

D: Rokslide Special. Speaks for itself I suppose.

Without hesitation this is the best answer. Ammo is a third to a quarter the cost. Recoil is low enough he can shoot a hundred plus rounds a day- there is no concern with concussion or mild TBI due to recoil. The low recoil and movement will allow him to spot his own shots, which dramatically increases the learning and skill from every trigger press.

I can not overstate the advantages that this combo offers all shooters in learning while shooting.

Budget is tight, he's the oldest of 6. All want to hunt, so I'm going to be buying a handful more kids' rifles. I want to do theirs right, and I want to do right by him with what I've learned over the last 3-4 years since we got him that rifle.

Well, you are coming at it correctly, with thoughtfulness and purpose. I’ll make a deal with you- get a Tikka compact in 223 with 8” twist barrel, SWFA 6x MQ reticle, Sportsmatch or UM Tikka rings, shoot it for a few months, hit me up for any questions and give it a hard try. If you/he doesn’t like it after a few months doing the above, I will buy it from you for exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Cahunter805]

This part is the most important. If that is the case he requires round counts under proper practice (it can still be fun, just follow good programming). This leads you straight to the answer.





So the 120gr NBT is a good bullet, however it is a good bullet because of how “tough” it is. It is not the most emphatic killer by far. The 150gr ELD-X and 162gr ELD- M and X are better bullets from a tissue disruption standpoint. However, recoil is greatly increased. I can almost guarantee you that the 7mm-08 and 120gr is already above what he should be shooting. Going heavier is a nonstarter.



This is objectively the second worst option.





This is objectively the worst option. Increasing recoil in now way will increase his ability.





This is ok, and much better than A or B. This really should be rifle number 2.





Without hesitation this is the best answer. Ammo is a third to a quarter the cost. Recoil is low enough he can shoot a hundred plus rounds a day- there is no concern with concussion or mild TBI due to recoil. The low recoil and movement will allow him to spot his own shots, which dramatically increases the learning and skill from every trigger press.

I can not overstate the advantages that this combo offers all shooters in learning while shooting.






Well, you are coming at it correctly, with thoughtfulness and purpose. I’ll make a deal with you- get a Tikka compact in 223 with 8” twist barrel, SWFA 6x MQ reticle, Sportsmatch or UM Tikka rings, shoot it for a few months, hit me up for any questions and give it a hard try. If you/he doesn’t like it after a few months doing the above, I will buy it from you for exactly what you paid for it.

That’s an awesome offer Form! Just another reason why I value your advice and trust it.

To the OP the tikka 223 is a great choice and can be passed down to the younger kids as they learn also.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

Going through a similar situation with my middle daughter. She is 11 and this will be her second year hunting. I started her on my cz 527 American in .223 rem. The .223 is absolutely the best rifle for kids/training. My father in law bought her a savage axis chambered in .243 for Christmas so I have been working with her and that rifle this summer. I love the adjustable LOP spacer options and it is a nice little compact rifle that shoots well. I have worked up a load with 87 gr vmax and RL-19. Cheap bullets that produce a low recoil load. My only complaint on these savage rifles is the bolts are stiff to operate. Been working with her on follow up shots at the range and she can’t keep her eye in the scope and load another round

 

[eric1115]

This part is the most important. If that is the case he requires round counts under proper practice (it can still be fun, just follow good programming). This leads you straight to the answer.

This is where I've been leaning for a little while now. He loves to shoot, and my SPR-ish 18" AR with 77SMK practice ammo is his favorite rifle to shoot. It's also my favorite rifle for him to shoot. It is amazing how fast a big pile of spent brass appears when you take a handful of kids shooting, so quite a bit of that realistically needs to be 223 brass for me to be able to afford to do it.

So the 120gr NBT is a good bullet, however it is a good bullet because of how “tough” it is. It is not the most emphatic killer by far. The 150gr ELD-X and 162gr ELD- M and X are better bullets from a tissue disruption standpoint. However, recoil is greatly increased. I can almost guarantee you that the 7mm-08 and 120gr is already above what he should be shooting. Going heavier is a nonstarter.

This is again confirmation of my thoughts. When we got him this rifle at age 10 I immediately realized that run of the mill 140+gr was not going to work. He shot Hornady reduced recoil better, but it still wasn't ideal. At that point I was a certainly in a different mindset in terms of what is needed/appropriate at both ends of the gun.

Everyone talks about the 6.5CM as a great little kids rifle, but I don't see it that way anymore. A 140 to 147 in the mid to upper 2K FPS range is not an appropriate rifle to start a kid on. At that time though, I figured a 120 doing mid twos should be milder than the CM so it's got to be fine. Now a bunch of these kids are running around with muzzle brakes on their CM, not a road I'm willing to go down with my kids.

This is objectively the second worst option.

Just to clarify one thing, I did not list these in order of my preference or what I think is optimal. If there's any rhyme or reason or order here they are roughly organized by what is least disruptive/expensive.

This is objectively the worst option. Increasing recoil in now way will increase his ability.

Thanks! I was inclined to think that is the case, I appreciate confirmation on that. I believe that going that route would be repeating/doubling down on the mistakes I made when he was 10. There's a "conventional wisdom/common knowledge/fudd lore/however else one wants to describe it" that would point a person in this direction, and there's usually at least a kernel of truth to those thought processes so I didn't want to dismiss it without consideration.

This is ok, and much better than A or B. This really should be rifle number 2.

It's been a while since I shot a .243, and I never ran anything heavy. We have a 6mm ARC in the family, and it's very mild with 108's (and could easily bump it down to something like a 95TMK.) That's less than 30 gr of powder though. I'm afraid he's going to realistically be pretty close to where he is now on recoil with just 10% less bullet weight and similar powder charge.

He handles current recoil levels pretty well with plenty of dry fire, rimfire, and .223 AR practice, but The further we get down the road the more I realize "handles it pretty well" is different than "is optimal for his growth as a shooter".

Without hesitation this is the best answer. Ammo is a third to a quarter the cost. Recoil is low enough he can shoot a hundred plus rounds a day- there is no concern with concussion or mild TBI due to recoil. The low recoil and movement will allow him to spot his own shots, which dramatically increases the learning and skill from every trigger press.

I can not overstate the advantages that this combo offers all shooters in learning while shooting.

This is the direction I was leaning. I already have dies, powder, and keep a few thousand 77SMK and a few hundred 77TMK on hand, so just upping the quantities of those that I buy is easy. They don't call it the Form Special / Rokslide Special for nothing.

Well, you are coming at it correctly, with thoughtfulness and purpose. I’ll make a deal with you- get a Tikka compact in 223 with 8” twist barrel, SWFA 6x MQ reticle, Sportsmatch or UM Tikka rings, shoot it for a few months, hit me up for any questions and give it a hard try. If you/he doesn’t like it after a few months doing the above, I will buy it from you for exactly what you paid for it.

That is a stellar offer, though we both know it'll never come to that once he starts shooting that combo . I really appreciate the effort and thought and thoroughness you put into your answers. Thanks!

 

[eric1115]

Good to 300 and sounds like he's killed stuff out to 250 with it. I really don't see why you're looking to change anything with the set up

He enjoys shooting and learning. He's been dialing with my AR out to 500+ for a couple of years now and would like to start expanding his hunting horizons.

 

[Wrench]

I'd be sure to run drills returning or checking zero on the turrets often. He needs to know that he's 3 revs out to zero or add a stop on the wind. I've seen the turret off an entire rev on my own kids rigs. I find the 6x to be a killer scope and I own plenty of them....but kids tend to get wound up and not focus on everything leading to the break of the trigger.

Just my opinion written from experiences I've had.

 

[hereinaz]

Form dialed in on the nut of the issue. Don’t compromise on the most important reason you have for the change. You already sort of knew it.

The .223 or the 6arc with lighter bullets will go a long way to meeting your goals. A good .223 will stay in your arsenal with more kids coming along. It won’t be a mistake, which is why Form offers the buyback confidently.

Look at the ballistics, you don’t need to get wrapped up in all the advice of opinion based responses. I have stopped listening to all the arguments made by people who found their pet or ideal round,etc. that they feel is necessary to kill stuff. Objectively, a kid will learn more when they don’t fight the rifle more than necessary.

I have my big rifles, but also built an ultralight rifle to pack around. It’s a Howa Mini that my smith opened up and I run 6bra in it. It’s a fun gun for me and I would hunt deer out to 600 and 700 with it.

Velocity matters more than bc inside 500 yards when it comes to elevation and wind, if you have a bullet with decent BC. All things equal, heavy bullets get their advantage only after the lighter bullet loses speed at longer ranges. I shoot the 95 grain VLD out of my 6bra in the mini, and the 105 class bullet doesn’t give me much benefit out of my shorter barrel.

If you wanted a new rifle, but wanted something more than a .223, then I like the 6 creed for kids, cause you can run lighter 87/95 grain bullets loaded lower, and also run up to 115 with a hotter load. The 115 dtacs and Bergers will kill out at further distance and with more authority than the 120 grain 7-08.

You can barely drop down in bullet weight by 5 grains, but with higher BC and match bullet construction get better ballistic and terminal performance out of a 6 creed than the 7-08. If you go with a 6 creed, I will make the same offer Form made.

I still think that the .223 seems the smarter route for your objectives. Or, just improve the 6arc to use it, and buy a new rifle later.

IMO, the 7mm caliber is best fit in the long action and magnum to get the benefit of the high BC bullets. So, there isn’t a reason to keep the 7-08 when you can get better results with the same or similar weight bullets in 6 and 6.5 mm calibers.

 

[eric1115]

All right, just placed the order for a Tikka .223 Compact, and will be ordering the 6x SWFA and sportsmatch rings. Rokslide Special here we come.

There *might* be a chance that he ends up with the 6ARC Howa Mini that I had intended to be the younger kids' "first deer rifle" and they get this Tikka, but we'll see how it shakes out after everyone has a chance to get more trigger time on both.

Really interested to see them side by side to see if that mini action has as much benefit for the kids over a LA Tikka as I imagined it would. That was 79% of the reason I went that route (10% curiosity about the 6ARC, 1% lingering shred of doubt about .223 on elk and 10% contrarian who can't just go with the widely accepted standard), and am more than willing to admit if I was wrong about that Howa. I'll report back with whatever my results are after the 9, 11, and 13 year olds all have more time on both.

 

[Ranchhunter]

It’s been a few months, how is it going with the 6 arc vs the 223? Looking at one of these for my daughter.


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[Unckebob]

Ok, long advice post so be forewarned.

@Formidilosus I would especially like your input on this.

My 13, almost 14 year old son has a somewhat cobbled together setup, a 7mm-08 Ruger American compact with a SFP 2-10x Minox ZX5. I handload 120 Ballistic Tips for it. He shoots it well enough, but there are some things about it that I dislike.

He is rail thin and small for his age, though he legit wears a size 10 boot and has hands that make me think he is going to end up tall. The compact stock fits him well still.

He is good to go with this setup out to 300 seated off his tripod, and I have no qualms with him putting that bullet into a deer or elk at that range. It's been reliable, though not dramatic killer at 100-250 for him so far. That BDC reticle is less than ideal beyond that; he's ok on steel out to 400ish, but I'm not inclined to let him shoot an animal that far. He has a desire to become a good rifleman, and I think he has the potential to do so.

Here are my main gripes and thoughts:
SFP BDC scope has to go. It's fine quality, but capped turrets and no zero stop have me very hesitant to let him dial it. I think a 6x SWFA is my inclination. I've been very pleased with the one on my .308 trainer/loaner.

7mm-08/120 NBT is a bit problematic. Form, do you have input on minimum velocity you would want to see on that bullet? It seems pretty hard/tough compared to most of the other NBT's I've seen. Not great BC, so it's going to bleed velocity pretty quick and get pushed around in the wind. Also the 120s are expensive-ish and hard to find. I think I'm already at (or above) what I want to be at for recoil for him.

I don't love the Ruger either. It works, but isn't inspiring.

This brings me to the following options (though if you see another feel free to suggest):

A: keep the Ruger, suck it up and find/buy more 120's. Swap to SWFA 6x. Let him practice long, keep him hunting short. Maybe revisit rifle when he's big enough to need full size stock.

B: keep the Ruger, switch from 120 to something easier to find and potentially more mid range elk capable (thinking 150 or 162 ELD perhaps). Swap to SWFA 6x. Increased recoil with heavy bullets, but could certainly load mild.

C: sell the Ruger, get fast twist .243 T3 and SWFA (or something else? So far I'm liking the Howa Mini 6mm ARC I got for his younger sister, but I think he is at/near a point where a little more beans is OK.)

D: Rokslide Special. Speaks for itself I suppose.

Budget is tight, he's the oldest of 6. All want to hunt, so I'm going to be buying a handful more kids' rifles. I want to do theirs right, and I want to do right by him with what I've learned over the last 3-4 years since we got him that rifle.

Gimme your best advice. Thanks in advance!

I have a 13 y/o girl in my house with a 10 y/o son following her. She is learning to shoot this year. Because she is a little recoil shy, I decided not to transition her to her/my 6.5CM.

Since I had a Savage 6 ARC with a rather heavy 24" barrel in a chassis, I decided to convert it to a hunting rig. It is with the gunsmith to get the barrel cut and threaded to 18" before going into a hunting stock.

If I didn't have the Savage, I would have ordered the Howa 6ARC.

 

[Mojave]

I am in my 50's. I have Gucci stuff, I am not buying Gucci stuff for my kids. I had a Ruger 77R in 30-06 with a 4x Leupold fixed power. The Leupold was a lucky deal, my grandfather gave me the rifle. I was proud of it. I should have never messed with it. But I am an idiot.

I have 4 daughters and none of them hunt. But I have 3 grandsons that might. My kids have good enough stuff, nothing super expensive for gear. Everything I own has the words Blaser, Kuiu, Swarovski, Zeiss whatever on it.

Kids have stuff that is good enough! Kids don't need Gucci stuff to hunt. You are buying it for yourself. Kids get cold really quickly. That is an often overlooked super important part of hunting.

What he might need is a more forgiving rifle in a cheaper caliber so he can shoot more. If the Ruger American does not have a brake or a can that is what I would work out. The 6.5 CM and 6mm CM are cheaper to buy ammo for in bulk.

Remember he has to pack this rifle. So it needs to be light enough and portable enough.

Do you really need 6 kids rifles? Maybe just put together 2 decent ones.

I built a 6.5 CM on a ARC Nucleus and bought a Greybull Precision stock I cut down to fit my girls, and none of them had any interest in it. Don't go full retard until they 100% prove they are worthy.

A heavy barreled Ruger American or Howa 1500 Mini in 6.5 Grendel with a heavy threaded barrel would be a great option. Trade that Ruger off, and get them shooting. Put a little in the kitty for a fixed 10x scope that has mil dots on it or a good turret system. Unless of course you live back east and 100 yards is a long shot.

https://swfa.com/swfa-10x42-ss-mil-quad-reticle-30mm-1-mil-clicks-side-focus/ This is what I would buy.

 

[Vern400]

Nothing wrong with setup. NBTs are risky at moderate to low velocity. I lost a deer due to failure to expand. Try Game Kings not tipped. They shoot great out of most guns and hit harder at mid velocities. Deer +7/08+ SGK = DRT The problem comes pushing them 3100 fps and taking close shots. They frag a bit then. I've shot 70 deer with them high shoulder. Only a few of them moved more than about 20 ft. Anyway that's one idea.

 

[eric1115]

It’s been a few months, how is it going with the 6 arc vs the 223? Looking at one of these for my daughter.


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Massive success with both rifles.

I still like that little Mini, but the .223 is objectively better for my application as far as I can tell.

The Tikka just plain works, right out of the box. No magazine or stock mods needed like the Howa.

Both shoot great, MOA 10 shot groups are common with both. I'm loading the ARC light, approx same as Hornady Match which is well below listed loads for bolt guns (2500 with 28.5 gr Leverevolution). There's not much benefit to be had for the extra recoil of a stiff load, as this already gets me upset velocity past where I want my younger kids shooting deer.

My son has put a few hundred rounds through the .223, almost all have been my practice load of thrown (not weighed) TAC charges and 77SMK factory seconds. Fast to load, .40ish CPR. I would not be keeping up with that volume handloading or buying ELDM's in the ARC. If I were to put a 6x SWFA on the Howa as well, and provide unlimited ammo for both, my guess is he'd prefer the ARC. But if it came with the round count limitations that it pretty much has to for me right now, I don't think he'd switch. He has already grown very fond of 80+ round range trips (which he has done with a combination of shooting my AR and his 7mm-08, but hits different now when it's all with his rifle). He's stretched it out to 775 and had surprisingly good success on calm days, less so when the wind is swirling. He has very quickly solidified the 300-400 stuff, and has really enjoyed 500ish yard 10-12" targets.

My daughter (12 now) and next son (10) will run use the 6mm ARC (suppressed) and .223 AR respectively this year unless one of them expresses a desire to do something different, both are enthusiastic but less obsessed than the oldest.

I put together a lot of the thoughts I've had and things I've learned through this process in another thread here, but the short version is that my only regret is waiting as long as I did to make the change.

Kids rifle manifesto

I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here. My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now...

rokslide.com

 

[jerm8352]

What if the kid is left handed? Having problems finding a low recoil smaller gun on left hand. Or do I just teach him to shoot leftie with a rightie gun?

 

[Agross]

I’m in the same boat. I got him a 350 legend in a lefty but so far he’s been shooting my rifles that are righty.

 

[Mojave]

If he is left handed get him a lever action.