Handgun for back country Archery Elk?

[realunlucky]

That's a pretty small group to base all data on. I also think many gun encounters go unreported when successful so the data gets swayed that way to. Best to be very comfortable with whatever you choose and practice getting it into action quickly. I've carried both before in Montana and Wyoming and often only carry spray when no threat of grizzlies. Sometimes the g20 is just to heavy

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[Beendare]

That's a pretty small group to base all data on. I also think many gun encounters go unreported when successful so the data gets swayed that way to. Best to be very comfortable with whatever you choose and practice getting it into action quickly.

Yep, good post ^^^
#1. The FWS folks and many others do not want those bears shot....under any circumstances. I get the impression even if it means sacrificing a few hunters.

#2. I bet a huge % of guys shooting a grizz and walking away flip the bird to the red tape involved in reporting it. The guys that cannot draw fast or shoot well enough become the statistics.

I looked at all of the cases in Alaska a few years ago trying to find the one bear attack that happened on the island we were hunting- not in there. An Outward bound group was attacked, they sprayed the bear, it left for a few minutes then came back with a vengeance and mauled one of the kids badly. It was in the local paper....but never made the spray study.


I think the spray can work...but personally I'm faster with my pistol.

 

[colonel00]

#2. I bet a huge % of guys shooting a grizz and walking away flip the bird to the red tape involved in reporting it. The guys that cannot draw fast or shoot well enough become the statistics.

From some of the Alaska folks that I've talked with, it's much easier to just tag a bear then report it as a DLP. As a resident up there, you just slap your $15 (or whatever nominal fee) harvest ticket on it and you are good. If you report a DLP, you have to go through all of this mess to prove your case. As a non-res (and a res I guess), a DLP can be a nightmare it seems unless you have fresh wounds to prove you were in danger.

Overall, to me there are almost three different sides to a bear encounter in the wild.

There is a curious bear that is just snooping around looking for some food. Fairly passive and inquisitive, I'm guessing bear spray would be fine as a "deterrent" with these animals. You just need to send the message that this isn't the area they want to be in.

Then there is the aggressive/defensive/protective animal which is acting on instinct and adrenaline. These are the encounters that I wouldn't want anything less than a lethal means of defense with. The problem here is if you are only prepared for the curious, passive encounter, the aggressive encounter can go all wrong.

The third is the "invited" scenario where people have done silly and stupid things to gain the attention of the animals be it having a dirty camp or encroaching in areas that obviously are dominated by the bears. If an animal now thinks there is a food source or they are being pushed off of a food source, that innocent, curious bear can morph into the aggressive, protective animal very quickly. Again, lethal force is my preference here too.

Now, I'm no expert by any means but I've been in the wild of Alaska plenty of times. Quite often I laugh when we take someone new up there and they want to carry a gun with them everywhere. Most often, I don't even thing about carrying anything, but it's all about situational awareness. There are certain times when I will most definitely carry a firearm. Mostly it's because we are either encroaching on the bears food source (fishing salmon streams) or packing out meat which could get the attention of a hungry animal.

Anyway, I guess my point is a firearm isn't meant to be a "deterrent", it's meant to be an endgame. I don't view bear spray as an endgame at all. Even in the situations where it is effective, that animal may not really "learn" from that isolated incident and could be a threat to someone else.

 

[kicker338]

2X on that beendare, i'le bet that a lot of wolves being shot here in Id. never get reported either, and I for can't blame them for it.

 

[garrete]

From some of the Alaska folks that I've talked with, it's much easier to just tag a bear then report it as a DLP. As a resident up there, you just slap your $15 (or whatever nominal fee) harvest ticket on it and you are good. If you report a DLP, you have to go through all of this mess to prove your case. As a non-res (and a res I guess), a DLP can be a nightmare it seems unless you have fresh wounds to prove you were in danger.

Overall, to me there are almost three different sides to a bear encounter in the wild.

There is a curious bear that is just snooping around looking for some food. Fairly passive and inquisitive, I'm guessing bear spray would be fine as a "deterrent" with these animals. You just need to send the message that this isn't the area they want to be in.

Then there is the aggressive/defensive/protective animal which is acting on instinct and adrenaline. These are the encounters that I wouldn't want anything less than a lethal means of defense with. The problem here is if you are only prepared for the curious, passive encounter, the aggressive encounter can go all wrong.

The third is the "invited" scenario where people have done silly and stupid things to gain the attention of the animals be it having a dirty camp or encroaching in areas that obviously are dominated by the bears. If an animal now thinks there is a food source or they are being pushed off of a food source, that innocent, curious bear can morph into the aggressive, protective animal very quickly. Again, lethal force is my preference here too.

Now, I'm no expert by any means but I've been in the wild of Alaska plenty of times. Quite often I laugh when we take someone new up there and they want to carry a gun with them everywhere. Most often, I don't even thing about carrying anything, but it's all about situational awareness. There are certain times when I will most definitely carry a firearm. Mostly it's because we are either encroaching on the bears food source (fishing salmon streams) or packing out meat which could get the attention of a hungry animal.

Anyway, I guess my point is a firearm isn't meant to be a "deterrent", it's meant to be an endgame. I don't view bear spray as an endgame at all. Even in the situations where it is effective, that animal may not really "learn" from that isolated incident and could be a threat to someone else.

When I worked in AK a guy at work shot a grizzly out berry picking with his family. He wasn't a hunter, but when he reported it they asked him to buy a license. which he did. They then congratulated on his first successful hunt and told him to go skin it out to remain legal. I think it was less paperwork.


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[Beendare]

Good post Colonel00....Well put on the different scenarios

Its like everything else, better understanding gets better results. Thankfully in the only 2 close range encounters I've had with Brown bears....they didn't want anything to do with me and skedaddled....which happens more often than not i bet. I don't worry too much about blackies.....

 

[AK Troutbum]

I have the Eberle stock nose gunner quit carrying the pistol unless I'm packed out spray is way more effective but I don't wanna be trying to use it in my tent in the dark

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I'd be willing to guess this guy is pretty happy that his partner was carrying a gun as opposed to bear spray.
Bear Mauling - YouTube

 

[Steve]

Smith and Wesson 657 from the PC. 41 mag with a 2 5/8" barrel


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[Beendare]

I've recently discovered a nice option;

.45 super in your H&K USP FS.

The bad news; the compact...or the HK 45 isn't as reliable as the FS USP. There is a couple guys that have been playing with this that didn't get 100% reliable feeding with the BB hardcast even in the USP.....but there are other decent options and the USP runs them without a hiccup.

 

[paleraider]

2X on that beendare, i'le bet that a lot of wolves being shot here in Id. never get reported either, and I for can't blame them for it.

One of the first conversations I had once I moved to Idaho was at a bar with some locals. The conversation turned to hunting and wolves. They were adamant about understanding the concept of the 3 S's. "Shoot, Shovel, Shut the F**k up".

Not sure if any of them have ever seen any wolves though.

 

[elkguide]

One of the first conversations I had once I moved to Idaho was at a bar with some locals. The conversation turned to hunting and wolves. They were adamant about understanding the concept of the 3 S's. "Shoot, Shovel, Shut the F**k up".

Not sure if any of them have ever seen any wolves though.

Before there were any seasons on wolves, there was quite a run on "solids" at most gunshops.

 

[Bar]

Back in the 70's I worked a gold claim with my buddy in Alaska. We both carried 44mag handguns and I also had a .458 mag as my bear charge gun. We were in the bush and lot's of grizz were in the area. One day when we were working about 100yds apart I heard my bud yealing at a bear. That was common and I can't count the times I was bluff charged. This time was different and heard him firing his .44 mag. I grabbed my rifle and ran at full speed towards him. By the time I got there he had fired all 6 shots and the bear was still coming. I shouldered the .458 and sent a 500gr bullet towards the bear. It knocked the bear off it's feet and it never moved again. My bud was pale white and couldn't stop thanking me.

That opened my eyes to how ineffective a .44 mag is on a pissed off grizz boar. I never bothered carrying a handgun again for bear protection. It would be fine for black bear. For grizz i'll take my chance on a big can of bear spray. Same for blackies.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Back in the 70's I worked a gold claim with my buddy in Alaska. We both carried 44mag handguns and I also had a .458 mag as my bear charge gun. We were in the bush and lot's of grizz were in the area. One day when we were working about 100yds apart I heard my bud yealing at a bear. That was common and I can't count the times I was bluff charged. This time was different and heard him firing his .44 mag. I grabbed my rifle and ran at full speed towards him. By the time I got there he had fired all 6 shots and the bear was still coming. I shouldered the .458 and sent a 500gr bullet towards the bear. It knocked the bear off it's feet and it never moved again. My bud was pale white and couldn't stop thanking me.

That opened my eyes to how ineffective a .44 mag is on a pissed off grizz boar. I never bothered carrying a handgun again for bear protection. It would be fine for black bear. For grizz i'll take my chance on a big can of bear spray. Same for blackies.

How many times have you emptied a can of bear spray into a charging BB? And if you did, did it work? I'm not trying to call you out, just wondering if you've had any positive experiences with BB's and bear spray in charging situations.


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[Bar]

Never had a black bear charge.

 

[larryschwartz]

I have not been in big brown bear country before, but I have always thought, for the reasons that Bar pointed out above, that the best defense for a charging bear...especially a brown bear...is a short barreled shotgun slung upside down so that you can swing it up and into action quickly. A mix of 12 gauge buckshot and slugs.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I have not been in big brown bear country before, but I have always thought, for the reasons that Bar pointed out above, that the best defense for a charging bear...especially a brown bear...is a short barreled shotgun slung upside down so that you can swing it up and into action quickly. A mix of 12 gauge buckshot and slugs.

Yup, that sounds about right, and for camp that's the only way I'll have it. I only wish that I could fit that into my mountain hunting situations.


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[larryschwartz]

Yup, that sounds about right, and for camp that's the only way I'll have it. I only wish that I could fit that into my mountain hunting situations.
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A Kifaru Gun Bearer would make it workable on a mountain or backpack hunt. I once designed a scabbard that was very similar to a plains style side quiver that you could mount to your backpack. You could swing your rifle or shotgun out of it with one hand and have it ready for action...now where did I put those designs....hmmmmm.

Larry

 

[Brendan]

A Kifaru Gun Bearer would make it workable on a mountain or backpack hunt.

Except that doesn't work when you use the gunbearer for your bow. Not really practical to carry your bow in your left hand, and a 12GA under your right arm, along with all your other gear (Bugle Tube, Binoculars, Rangefinder, etc). The bear would have time to sit there laughing at you trying to get untangled before he whipped your ass

Bear Spray on left hip or shoulder strap, .44 / 10mm / .45 Super on right hip or in a chest rig. Bow would get dropped and Bear Spray gets the call first because I'm being honest with myself about my ability to shoot accurately under pressure like that.

About the only other thing I could come up with - Use a Mountain Rambler with a lightweight 308 or 12GA there. Drop your bow with your left, and yank the rifle with your right. An open sight kimber adirondack comes in around 5lb loaded.

Carrying the rifle here, although it was in case I saw a nice muley:

 

[Brendan]

I've recently discovered a nice option;

.45 super in your H&K USP FS.

I've done a bunch of research for the 45 Super in the G20/21 - some people are running up to ~1000 ft-lb loads, but with an upgraded barrel and a compensator. Huge thread on this over on GlockTalk if you're interested

 

[AK Troutbum]

Or I could always just bring my boy along.

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