Gray Wolves Delisted

[TomJoad]

A rancher thats pro wolf? Selling ocean front property in Arizona too?

He averages over 5k head of cattle in WY: We're not talking about a small outfit. He also has held high level positions in WY Game and Fish in the past, so he has heard plenty of arguments from both sides over the decades. He's also rational, sane and reasonable which is what has made him so successful as a businessman and rancher.

 

[Life_Feeds_On_Life]

Life_Feeds_On_Life: Genuine thanks for your meaningful contribution. I hadn't seen this particular article but do like a lot of it. It doesn't however discuss the same topics addressed in the NG article or study. It is focused on the pro-wolf "Trophic Cascades" arguments and he makes reasonable and good cases against those. The Study I posted above was about wolfs benefits to elk population health especially as it pertains to climate change. As this article is from 2018 and that study was published in March 2020 I'd very much like to hear Jim's (biologist author) perspective on it, I'm sure he would have a perspective.

My favorite bits:

From the front end:
"Now wolves are portrayed inaccurately by most people except for a minority who simply see them as native carnivores that belong on the landscape, managed along with all the other species of wildlife." This describes me to a T

From the back end:
"The truth is, the wolf is not necessary to have a healthy landscape, but it belongs there with the other native species we have all helped to restore. David Mech wrote in 2012: “We don’t have to make the wolf out to be a hero to justify recovery.”

Hit him up on instagram. You might be able to dig up his email somewhere too.

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[MattB]

MattB aka "dog with a bone":

My sincere apologies for using the word "sick" in my second post in response to you. To help you loosen your canine's a bit I have gone to the effort to remove this word from that single posting, it is now gone. Praise be. Let's hope that moves things on a bit.

Now aside from my interpretation of the study or article did you have your own interpretation you wanted to serve up for discussion? Do you see indications in the study or data or any other studies that point to wolf re-introductions not being good on balance for the health and management of Elk populations? If so AWESOME, lets hear it!

TomJoad aka "guy without reading comprehension skills":

I already expressed what the study determined. Not my interpretation, what it says.

To take it back to your earlier comment: ". Hunters and wolves don't target Elk in the same ways, hunters are either filling the freezer or looking for a trophy bull based on rack size. Wolves do an exceptionally good job culling the sick or the weak which does a great job of creating a stronger herd."

The study does not say that. What the study says is that, depending on environmental factors, wolves appear to shift their focus based on sex and age of their prey and that appears to have a moderating affect on elk population growth.

To the point about wolves and hunters not targeting elk in the same way and that wolves thus have a niche, that is a false choice. Game departments could easily shift tag numbers and bull:antlerless ratios - and even add calf tags - based on encironmental factors/forage quality to achieve a similar result if they thought it would be biologically beneficial.

This again is tied to the study's findings that wolves shift from cows to calves and bulls as the herd condition changes, and not that the individual elk wolves target are less healthy or less strong than the population in general. That specifically is the logical leap that NG made and that you seen to be baselessly reiterating.

 

[TomJoad]

Hit him up on instagram. You might be able to dig up his email somewhere too.

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Message sent. If I hear back form him with an opinion I'll post it up!

 

[wind gypsy]

Oh, I think you saw exactly what I was getting at....we can go ahead and extirpate wolves and other predators all over again, but will still negatively affect big game hunting through overdevelopment.

Just so we're on the same page - there is a wide gap of different takes between "The wolves should be de-listed" and "Wolves should be extirpated again".

 

[MattB]

Life_Feeds_On_Life: Genuine thanks for your meaningful contribution. I hadn't seen this particular article but do like a lot of it. It doesn't however discuss the same topics addressed in the NG article or study. It is focused on the pro-wolf "Trophic Cascades" arguments and he makes reasonable and good cases against those. The Study I posted above was about wolfs benefits to elk population health especially as it pertains to climate change. As this article is from 2018 and that study was published in March 2020 I'd very much like to hear Jim's (biologist author) perspective on it, I'm sure he would have a perspective.

I word searched the study for the word "health" and, surprise surprise, it is not used in the study. Not once.

How do you explain that your synopsis of the study's findings are largely predicated on concepts that are not even referenced in the study?

Funny thing is they are however mentioned in the NG article....

 

[wind gypsy]

Wolf Plan Update

So far in the wolf plan update process, the DNR has conducted a scientific public opinion survey, consulted with technical experts and tribal staff, convened a 20-member wolf advisory committee, and solicited public input. Public input in 2020 included virtual open

engage.dnr.state.mn.us

MN could use all the helpful input we can get. There's an awful lot of people in MN who think wolves ride on rainbows, we could never have too many, and cant stomach the idea of humans harming a one in the name of pets, livestock, or the crashed moose population.

For the record, I want them here, I just think that focused hunting/trapping seasons would do a lot of good as well.

 

[Lawnboi]

I agree they should be on the landscape as well. However at this point, atleast where I live at, we need coyote level seasons to get them in check. Too many years left unchecked.

 

[Scottyboy]

MN DNR is re writing it’s wolf management plan and say they are accepting public comment until 11/20. I’m trying to figure out the proper way to place said comments and will share here when I know. We need all the help we can get because uniformed urbanites that form most of the states population are very pro more wolves..

let’s just hope the season will, eventually, come. I’m sick of seeing them on trail camera

 

[Scottyboy]

Wolf Plan Update

So far in the wolf plan update process, the DNR has conducted a scientific public opinion survey, consulted with technical experts and tribal staff, convened a 20-member wolf advisory committee, and solicited public input. Public input in 2020 included virtual open

engage.dnr.state.mn.us

MN could use all the helpful input we can get. There's an awful lot of people in MN who think wolves ride on rainbows, we could never have too many, and cant stomach the idea of humans harming a one in the name of pets, livestock, or the crashed moose population.

For the record, I want them here, I just think that focused hunting/trapping seasons would do a lot of good as well.

Bingo.

I like them. I want them here. I also want to help our moose/elk population flourish just the same (and don’t get me started on the current moose situation)

they need to be managed, we are so far above recovery numbers it’s ridiculous

 

[Elk97]

Sounds like a step in the right direction, at least now states can determine how (or if) they will manage the wolves. I would at least like to see legislation that allows a rancher the right to kill wolves that are killing their livestock with no legal repercussions.

 

[Idaho_Potato]

A rancher thats pro wolf? Selling ocean front property in Arizona too?

Make that two of us. I'm not an owner but an employee. Cattle are my life and pay my bills. I would rather have wolves in Idaho than none at all. I also love a full freezer of elk (and prime ribeyes ). Let's get the balance right for all.

 

[Marbles]

About time. I want wolves, but I think they have far surpassed the point where they need endangered species protection.

 

[Marbles]

I wonder if some of the wolf sympathizers would change their tune if they had them in there back yard where their kids and pets play. That’s the reality of it in norther WI for me. I want to be able to legally take care of a problem if it comes knocking. I hope I can get a wolf tag every year. Have more spots around home picked out for wolf than I do deer.

Not me. I have moose wonder through my yard (vary dangerous) and I'm pro moose. Also have black bear in the neighborhood and I don't want to see them exterminated. I saw a big brown less than 1.5 miles from my yard, and I don't want browns exterminated. I have two children, one old enough to play in the yard.

Creating a danger free bubble for children results in adults who cannot navigate life very well.

 

[amassi]

Science please?
Can you please link research based articles discrediting this study? ALL CAPS doesn't make anything more real without data.

Link your research

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[Lawnboi]

Not me. I have moose wonder through my yard (vary dangerous) and I'm pro moose. Also have black bear in the neighborhood and I don't want to see them exterminated. I saw a big brown less than 1.5 miles from my yard, and I don't want browns exterminated. I have two children, one old enough to play in the yard.

Creating a danger free bubble for children results in adults who cannot navigate life very well.

I understand they are around and will be. We have bears as well and I don’t want them to go away. I’m simply referencing that it will be nice to not have all the red tape if one needs to be removed. That said I won’t tolerate a pack of wolves or bears in my back yard, I’d scare them off, I’m not in a neighborhood. To each their own.

 

[Extrapale]

About time. I want wolves, but I think they have far surpassed the point where they need endangered species protection.

Agreed.

There are over what 500k? Of them in Alaska and Canada? They never should have been listed.

The native wolves are gone, replaced by their northern cousins.

The real beef is the moving of the goal line by preservationists.

Wolves were shoved down the throats of Western residents as an experimental population with specific recovery levels. Those levels were far surpassed before management was allowed. Still no management in Oregon and Washington.

They are here, for the long haul, let's manage them.

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[PA Hunter]

Kaboom!!!!

 

[Mossyhorns51]

Its about time, hopefully it sticks this time. Thanks for posting!!

It won't it will get over turned and thry will be relisted

This will have no impact on what's happening in Colorado. If they get voted in we'll likely never be able to manage them with hunting or trapping.

They will get voted in its pretty much a gaureentee

 

[Mossyhorns51]

Agreed.

There are over what 500k? Of them in Alaska and Canada?

Ummmmmm NO no where near 500,000