Federal New Cartridge

[Bugger]

Remi Warren did his contractually obligated ad on his FB page yesterday for the 7mm Backcountry. 228 comments already and all but a couple are negative. His followers are typically positive fanboys so it appears people are tired of the “new cartridge machine’ that the industry has become.

 

[dirtshooter]

Remi Warren did his contractually obligated ad on his FB page yesterday for the 7mm Backcountry. 228 comments already and all but a couple are negative. His followers are typically positive fanboys so it appears people are tired of the “new cartridge machine’ that the industry has become.

He's just shilling like other influencers. Dude was awesome when he was just the solo hunter.

 

[Bluefish]

Some light reading on the subject https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/a-test-of-fast-vs-slower-powders-winston.68141/. Make sure and expand the first post from Neil Winston. Unfortunately with his death, I can find links to his papers, but they no longer work. While the pressures are a lot less the difference between pressures as a % are more than on a rifle.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/an-improved-detailed-analysis-of-shotgun-recoil.458418/

 

[Axlrod]

I’m all for advancements and see the benefits for certain applications and I’m sure will try it out myself at some point. But here’s how I view it now for hunting.
I can either buy a 7prc rifle, brass, dies or factory ammo for $50/box. Or I can buy a 7BC rifle which I’m guessing is going to be more expensive, more expensive dies, and alloy cases, or factory ammo for Im guessing $80-$100 box or more.
Both will probably achieve similar performance(guessing within 100fps) and I’m assuming close to the same recoil. It’s just going to cost way more to shoot the 7BC.
Also I would think this will change the minimum barrel length ratings for your suppressor. I would also assume a 7BC country is going to be pretty loud at 80kpsi out of a 16” Bbl no matter what can your using.

On the price of 7 BC, Powder Valley has it listed (not in stock) between $49 and $63 per box.

 

[littlebigtine]

He's just shilling like other influencers. Dude was awesome when he was just the solo hunter.

I think of Remi as a legend. But that doesnt mean im buying 7 bc.

 

[dirtshooter]

I think of Remi as a legend. But that doesnt mean im buying 7 bc.

I really like remi too I just hate the shilling but I get it he's gotta make a living

 

[MarkOrtiz]

7mm flatbrim

7mm broke-backcountry is one I heard yesterday and it made me laugh.

 

[z987k]

Recoil comparison for a 7PRC and 7BC at the same speed, with my best estimates of powder charge and accounting for higher muzzle exit pressure/powder velocity increase due to higher chamber pressure (e rif is the column for recoil energy):
View attachment 819370
Tiny difference in recoil. We could debate on muzzle exit pressure/powder velocity increase at bullet exit, or better yet maybe someone could run some Quickload/GRT iterations and post those pressure curves for assessment. But from this I don't see a benefit other than maybe the 7PRC cannot actually hit 3k in 20". Running a 28 Nos which I think can do that no problem:
View attachment 819371
So in that case there is a more noticeable difference. However I'm now a little skeptical the 7BC can even hit 3k in 20" at 80ksi... again need some Quickload investigations to see if that actually works.

Fundamentally though I don't see the benefit of higher mv with the 175 class 7mm - it's still an 8mph gun and terminal ranges are still STUPID far. It's just more recoil.

I ran it real quick through GRT, using the 280ai case and a 175eldx..... no powder in the database gets a 175 to 3000fps from a 20in barrel by 80kpsi. Best was 2930 with 59.2gr of powder. Muzzle pressure 16,981psi. Gas outflow velocity 3347fps.
7PRC about 2870fps at 65kpsi with 68.6gr, 20686psi muzzle pressure, 3319fps outflow velocity.

In an 8lb gun, the 80k 280ai produces 26ft-lbs of recoil while the 7PRC produces 27.
If I put more powder in the 280ai until it gets to 3000fps, the recoil is 27.
If I match the velocity of the two by getting the 280ai to 2870fps, it only has 24ft-lbs of recoil.

It's something.

 

[SwiftShot]

To figure out the recoil look at the 277 Fury. It does the same thing. Some how it has less recoil than anything shooting same weight and velocity.
Sure influencers could be full of crap. We dont have enough reviews yet. Shooting 175 to 195 grain bullets pretty fast out of 18 inch barrels with manageable recoil makes it interesting if true. Federal has said the case is reload able and a major reloader manufacturer will have proper products, well according to Ron Spoomer. If true cool but I will wait and watch.

 

[CMP70306]

To figure out the recoil look at the 277 Fury. It does the same thing. Some how it has less recoil than anything shooting same weight and velocity.
Sure influencers could be full of crap. We dont have enough reviews yet. Shooting 175 to 195 grain bullets pretty fast out of 18 inch barrels with manageable recoil makes it interesting if true. Federal has said the case is reload able and a major reloader manufacturer will have proper products, well according to Ron Spoomer. If true cool but I will wait and watch.

Recoil is determined by mass exiting the barrel which includes the powder charge, higher pressure mean less powder which means less mass and therefore less recoil.

 

[H@mstar19x3]

Remi Warren did his contractually obligated ad on his FB page yesterday for the 7mm Backcountry. 228 comments already and all but a couple are negative. His followers are typically positive fanboys so it appears people are tired of the “new cartridge machine’ that the industry has become.

To be fair, this cartridge release is especially foolish.

 

[H@mstar19x3]

To figure out the recoil look at the 277 Fury. It does the same thing. Some how it has less recoil than anything shooting same weight and velocity.
Sure influencers could be full of crap. We dont have enough reviews yet. Shooting 175 to 195 grain bullets pretty fast out of 18 inch barrels with manageable recoil makes it interesting if true. Federal has said the case is reload able and a major reloader manufacturer will have proper products, well according to Ron Spoomer. If true cool but I will wait and watch.

Of course Spomer is all about it, he's there to push fud guns to his old fud followers.

 

[solarshooter]

I ran it real quick through GRT, using the 280ai case and a 175eldx..... no powder in the database gets a 175 to 3000fps from a 20in barrel by 80kpsi. Best was 2930 with 59.2gr of powder. Muzzle pressure 16,981psi. Gas outflow velocity 3347fps.
7PRC about 2870fps at 65kpsi with 68.6gr, 20686psi muzzle pressure, 3319fps outflow velocity.

In an 8lb gun, the 80k 280ai produces 26ft-lbs of recoil while the 7PRC produces 27.
If I put more powder in the 280ai until it gets to 3000fps, the recoil is 27.
If I match the velocity of the two by getting the 280ai to 2870fps, it only has 24ft-lbs of recoil.

It's something.

This is very interesting. Your 7PRC results look right on the money with some of the load data people have quoted around here. My basic understanding of this 80ksi is you would load a bigger charge of a faster burning powder in there, so going off 280ai, if a "normal" load was say 60gr of H1000, you would instead put 60gr of H4350, or something like that. Not sure if it's that simple, or if that should even yield more MV since the specific energies of those powders are similar?

Also interesting the MEPs are similar. In that case the table I posted with the same powder velocities would be the most valid comparison. And I should really be using more like 3300fps for powder exit velocity.

Edit: could you post the pressure curves you came up with here? I'd be curious what they look like.

 

[BelowAverageBowhunter]

I ran it real quick through GRT, using the 280ai case and a 175eldx..... no powder in the database gets a 175 to 3000fps from a 20in barrel by 80kpsi. Best was 2930 with 59.2gr of powder. Muzzle pressure 16,981psi. Gas outflow velocity 3347fps.
7PRC about 2870fps at 65kpsi with 68.6gr, 20686psi muzzle pressure, 3319fps outflow velocity.

In an 8lb gun, the 80k 280ai produces 26ft-lbs of recoil while the 7PRC produces 27.
If I put more powder in the 280ai until it gets to 3000fps, the recoil is 27.
If I match the velocity of the two by getting the 280ai to 2870fps, it only has 24ft-lbs of recoil.

It's something.

The similar or lower muzzle exit pressure is interesting. I guess it makes sense that a fast burning powder would spike the pressure then die off it's the same reason we can get higher speeds out of the super slow powders because they're holding that pressure longer. Do you know why they're getting slower outflow velocity on the PRC even though the muzzle exit pressure is higher? What do those muzzle exit pressures look like if you use a 16-18" barrel like some of the rifles they're putting it in?

Definitely showing some improvement in felt recoil somewhere between 5-14oz of gun weight worth depending on what recoil number you use, certainly isn't nothing.

 

[SwiftShot]

The similar or lower muzzle exit pressure is interesting. I guess it makes sense that a fast burning powder would spike the pressure then die off it's the same reason we can get higher speeds out of the super slow powders because they're holding that pressure longer. Do you know why they're getting slower outflow velocity on the PRC even though the muzzle exit pressure is higher? What do those muzzle exit pressures look like if you use a 16-18" barrel like some of the rifles they're putting it in?

Definitely showing some improvement in felt recoil somewhere between 5-14oz of gun weight worth depending on what recoil number you use, certainly isn't nothing.

That is the questions we need answered. I am betting we are going to see a new powder blend like Hornadys Lever Revolution. The pressure has to jump fast but you do need a little sustained to get that accuracy.

I just like the fact that Federal is saying it is reloadable. They did patent the case metal though so that will make it harder for others to make cases. Federal is not who I would go to for cases.

 

[Mojave]

Gay-er than aids. Yes!

 

[Axlrod]

To be fair, this cartridge release is especially foolish.

So you are CEO at Federal. Your team comes to you and says " Chief, we didn't get the Army contract, we have $xxxxxx invested in this alloy case. Should we A) shelve it and eat the entire R&D costs or B) should we bring it to market and produce some revenue?"

You pick A) and the board of directors will ask you to discontinue being the CEO.
So to be fair, there is only one foolish option.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

I have to say, the Alterra boys did a nice practical workup on this thing. Their approach on velocity variation and group size, pumping that through the WEZ, and talking about it based on what they were seeing out of their gun, with the ammo provided, was really refreshing. Especially thinking about it in terms of hit rates and at what distances are practical. I'm not sure what their assumptions were for wind on the hit rates, but still, better than the influencer assault.

The reload part of this is another factor and Shoot2Hunt covered that plenty in-depth I think.

I agree with folks on Remi - hate to see him pushing "get the 7BC in my live wild edition weatherby" and the like, but the guy is mega legit and puts some good stuff out there, so hard to fault him too hard for trying to make a buck. Still makes me roll my eyes a bit to see it.

 

[Mojave]

I would imagine that the DOD spent most of the up front cost of that.