Federal New Cartridge

[wind gypsy]

How many weeks before Hornady starts pimping out steel cased high pressure 6.5 needmoor? All the cool kids will want some.

Uh, yeah. A 6.5 creedmoor that performs like a 6.5 PRC but with less recoil, what's not to like?

 

[TxLite]

How many weeks before Hornady starts pimping out steel cased high pressure 6.5 needmoor? All the cool kids will want some.

Are there any legal concerns for them to sell ammo that exceeds the pressure that was approved by Saami?

 

[TaperPin]

Uh, yeah. A 6.5 creedmoor that performs like a 6.5 PRC but with less recoil, what's not to like?

That would be kind of cool if there were +P options for all the cartridges.

 

[TaperPin]

Are there any legal concerns for them to sell ammo that exceeds the pressure that was approved by Saami?

That’s a good question

 

[rileybassman]

Are there any legal concerns for them to sell ammo that exceeds the pressure that was approved by Saami?

I've had 3 different guys tell me that SAAMI approved the .277 fury and one guy told me that SAAMI already approved the 7 BC.

 

[TxLite]

I've had 3 different guys tell me that SAAMI approved the .277 fury and one guy told me that SAAMI already approved the 7 BC.

Right but if Saami approved the 6.5 creed at 62,000psi or whatever, can Hornady produce/sell steel case ammo at 80k psi without legal ramifications down the road if something goes sideways

 

[Dos XX]

6.5 Steelmoor.

You are welcome Hornady.

 

[WCB]

Right but if Saami approved the 6.5 creed at 62,000psi or whatever, can Hornady produce/sell steel case ammo at 80k psi without legal ramifications down the road if something goes sideways

At this point I don't think so...maybe if SAAMI approved a "steel waiver" where the ammo demonstrated no greater stress on the firearm than the already approved pressure. And the manufacturer had to certify it? Which is essentially what this casing does.

Technically companies don't "have to" adhere to SAAMI. It does add some protection. However, like anything else companies still get sued.

 

[walk2112]

6.5 Steelmoor.

You are welcome Hornady.

6.5 Speedmoor

 

[SwiftShot]

Right but if Saami approved the 6.5 creed at 62,000psi or whatever, can Hornady produce/sell steel case ammo at 80k psi without legal ramifications down the road if something goes sideways

They cannot. Saami specs say max pressure. Change jt is making a whole new cartridge. There would be legal hoops to jump through. Plus tons of liability as rifles where made on the old spec. One dude blows his hand off because he made a Creedmoor with an ancient Mauser action and he would win the lotto.

 

[Article 4]

Federal has a patent pending on this round - and it appears on potential innovation with the round. To me this is a huge risk for them. This will likely never be a hand loaders round, due to the limitations we have all talked about, but IMO don't think it was ever meant to be. If the OTC market is soft, they are going to be a small player with this.

Stifle innovation and you stifle potential business.

Elon Musk - like him or not - has said that patents are ineffective and act as a barrier to innovation. He has described patents as "landmines in warfare" that "don't actually help advance things." Further stating that by the time somone copies what we are going, we are 3 iterations ahead of that.

I do not see myself adding one of these to the safe anytime.

 

[gretch6364]

I think it will be successful and map out the next evolution of ammo. Reloaders are a small percentage of the public and federal probably makes twice as much off a box of factory ammo then all the brass a reloaded buys over the life of a rifle.

It is a hunting round meant for guns that are light and not fun to shoot a ton at the range. I think there is lots of market space to split up types of shooters.

These forums are full of reloaders and the average joe that buys factory ammo probably isn’t posting here. It’s a target audience and even if you do reload, I don’t see why you can’t find room in your safe for a light rifle with a 20” barrel shooting 7BC

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Uh, yeah. A 6.5 creedmoor that performs like a 6.5 PRC but with less recoil, what's not to like?

That’s called a 6 Creedmoor

 

[Unckebob]

Are there any legal concerns for them to sell ammo that exceeds the pressure that was approved by Saami?

Federal could used their technology in a standard 280AI cartridge, but that would result in non SAAMI approved ammo and rifles might blow up.

To solve that problem, Federal slightly redesigned the case so it is not a 280AI and has gone to SAAMI for approval of the case.

If Hornady wanted to do a 6.5CM, they would need to design a new cartridge and have it Saami approved.

 

[z987k]

I've had 3 different guys tell me that SAAMI approved the .277 fury and one guy told me that SAAMI already approved the 7 BC.

SAAMI did approve the 277 fury at 80kpsi. You can look it up yourself in that massive pdf of cartridges SAAMI has on their website.
Or this one.

 

[Unckebob]

Interesting IMO. Not something I’d rush out and buy but if factory ammo shoots well enough I could see it being a popular option for factory ammo hunters.

Sounds like federal is saying reloadable which is a big deal in high performance cartridges IMO.

If you can get the same speeds with less powder it does equate to a little less recoil energy.

Not likely something for me but I’m not going to poo poo on it without knowing how it really works out. Might be a great option.

I submit that people on this forum are vastly into reloading more than the average hunter. My guess is that the percentage of hunters who only use factory ammo is in the 90+% range.

Average Hunter goes into gun store: I want an inexpensive rifle to hunt deer and Elk/bear/etc.
"Why do the Savage and Weatherby rifles have shorter barrels."
"I can have 7 PRC or 7 RM performance in a compact rifle?"

Takes home a Savage 110 or Weatherby Vanguard in 7 BC.

 

[z987k]

This is very interesting. Your 7PRC results look right on the money with some of the load data people have quoted around here. My basic understanding of this 80ksi is you would load a bigger charge of a faster burning powder in there, so going off 280ai, if a "normal" load was say 60gr of H1000, you would instead put 60gr of H4350, or something like that. Not sure if it's that simple, or if that should even yield more MV since the specific energies of those powders are similar?

Also interesting the MEPs are similar. In that case the table I posted with the same powder velocities would be the most valid comparison. And I should really be using more like 3300fps for powder exit velocity.

Edit: could you post the pressure curves you came up with here? I'd be curious what they look like.

The powder energies matter a lot, as do the densities. Both powders I used in that simulation were double base. RL26 in the 7prc. But you cannot get enough RL26 in a 280ai case to get above 65kpsi. Powder density matters a lot with the more limited case volume. This usually results in using ball powders.
It's the same issue with the 277 fury, the powder used vs the powder used in a 6.8w to achieve the same results is a double base ball(I think all ball powders produced are double base) vs a higher energy, slower burning stick.

My experience with these really high performing ball powders... like leverevolution or superformance is that you will NEVER get the ES/SD needed for ethical shots at 800, let alone 1000 yards. They're great for speed, but not consistent enough for that long of range of shooting. Which mirrors what the Allterra guys were seeing.
My reloads for the 277 fury, the best SD I have for that round at higher pressures is 37(sample size 52). Run that through a WEZ and tell me you're taking a shot at even 500 yards. If I back the pressure off and use a single base stick at just over 65k, I can get great SD's around 5.


280ai curve -

7prc -

 

[wind gypsy]

That’s called a 6 Creedmoor

There are some higher BC 6.5 pills out there but yes, close.

But in that case, gimme a 6 dasher or GT type case that outperforms a 6 creed.

 

[Formidilosus]

The powder energies matter a lot, as do the densities. Both powders I used in that simulation were double base. RL26 in the 7prc. But you cannot get enough RL26 in a 280ai case to get above 65kpsi. Powder density matters a lot with the more limited case volume. This usually results in using ball powders.
It's the same issue with the 277 fury, the powder used vs the powder used in a 6.8w to achieve the same results is a double base ball(I think all ball powders produced are double base) vs a higher energy, slower burning stick.

My experience with these really high performing ball powders... like leverevolution or superformance is that you will NEVER get the ES/SD needed for ethical shots at 800, let alone 1000 yards. They're great for speed, but not consistent enough for that long of range of shooting. Which mirrors what the Allterra guys were seeing.
My reloads for the 277 fury, the best SD I have for that round at higher pressures is 37(sample size 52). Run that through a WEZ and tell me you're taking a shot at even 500 yards. If I back the pressure off and use a single base stick at just over 65k, I can get great SD's around 5.


280ai curve -
View attachment 820886
7prc -
View attachment 820887

It is incorrect to believe that Velocity ES and SD directly correlates with vertical or group size at distance.

 

[z987k]

It is incorrect to believe that Velocity ES and SD directly correlates with vertical or group size at distance.

When I punch a large SD into a WEZ calculator the hit probability goes to crap at distance. If large velocity variations are not indicative of some amount of vertical stringing...
I mean how would that be? If you're somehow perfectly zero'd at X distance at X velocity, and then the velocity drops 50fps, physics would require that shot to hit somewhere lower than the previous that was at the X velocity.