Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting

[Jesse Jaymes]

Shot it 1.75 times this evening. Enlightening. Ran out of ammo second round and didn’t shoot prone. Used 45 seconds of time. Found position 3 rather challenging. And can see visually I am Left Handed on the targets. Plenty of stuff to clean up. Am very able to call my shots. And when I was off it was by a mile. Kicking my own ass mentally of “GeeeseZus....why did you break the trigger there?”

Also realized that on the clock I don’t breath....EVER. I do that in training scenarios. And a ton during competitive archery. Pressure goes up....my O2 level goes down.
Scored a legit 15 first time out. Was looking about the same, maybe 16ish. Second round. I’m going to experiment and dry fire a bunch to clean some up (isn’t that called Practice? Lol)

 

[Formidilosus]

Good shooting Stu. That rifle is a dang good package... no bias. Ha.

As for under estimating time to get into position.... This is what I try to get people to realize when they talk “speed”- dudes aren’t shooting in 5 to 10 seconds from anything other than an offhand snapshot. The fastest and I mean the fastest times you will see in the field for throwing a pack off, and getting in a shooting position will be 8 to 10 seconds and that is from legit world class shooters.
In hundreds of hunters/shooters when asked how fast they are when seeing an animal, ranging, getting into position, and hitting it, the standard response to the tune of 90+% of them, is- “big bucks/bulls don’t give you time to fiddle with all that stuff. f you aren’t able to kill them with 5 to 10 seconds, they’re gone”. Then we have them do it on a timer..... the time for experienced and seasoned hunters is almost always between 45 and 75 seconds. People having no sense of time, and always way overestimate their abilities. If you aren’t using a timer and a target, you have no idea what capability is.






Jesse,



Yep, practice. Are you saying that you used 45 seconds per string instead of 20?

 

[JollyRoger]

Well I have a ton of work to do. 13/20 today is pretty awful and humbling.

T3X 223, SWFA 3-9. Left it on 6x the whole time. And maybe should have tried 3 or 4 to take out that wobble.


My 10 round zero confirmation before hand. Not sure why the perfect horizontal line but I’m all ears if anyone has a diagnosis.

 

[Castle Rock]

The vertical grip? It’s on all the T3’s I have that use the factory stocks. Better wrist alignment, and does help with recoil control a bit and spotting impacts.

I grabbed one to try, it feels good in the hand, looking forward to trying it out when I can get out of town

 

[Castle Rock]

Well I have a ton of work to do. 13/20 today is pretty awful and humbling.

T3X 223, SWFA 3-9. Left it on 6x the whole time. And maybe should have tried 3 or 4 to take out that wobble.


My 10 round zero confirmation before hand. Not sure why the perfect horizontal line but I’m all ears if anyone has a diagnosis.

Trigger finger not clear of the stock, been there, done that

 

[woods89]

We should probably be paying for this. Appreciate the info.

 

[Stu]

Hoping to do another round or two tomorrow after practicing positions. Speaking of positions, Form, when you shoot with two hands on the rifle (i.e. standing, unsupported seated, supporting seated), do you generally put rearward pressure on the gun with your support hand as well as your firing hand? I find with my carry strap (which I usually have going over my right shoulder, around my back and under my left arm like a 2-point AR setup), I tend to push forward to tension the sling. Am I overthinking this?

Have any good references for field positions and managing recoil outside of prone?

 

[Formidilosus]

Hoping to do another round or two tomorrow after practicing positions. Speaking of positions, Form, when you shoot with two hands on the rifle (i.e. standing, unsupported seated, supporting seated), do you generally put rearward pressure on the gun with your support hand as well as your firing hand? I find with my carry strap (which I usually have going over my right shoulder, around my back and under my left arm like a 2-point AR setup), I tend to push forward to tension the sling. Am I overthinking this?

Have any good references for field positions and managing recoil outside of prone?

I don’t generally use a sling anymore as it creates torque that I don’t want to deal with. For pressure with the support hand, just enough to keep it in my shoulder without from my strong hand on the gun.

As for references, we might be working on something. If you have specific questions let me know.

 

[Stu]

Definitely understand the torque issue. I’ve placed both sling mounting points on the support side of the rifle to help alleviate that (rifle stays fairly well aligned axially without the firing hand’s input). I’ll try to experiment both ways. Looking forward to the reference that you...referenced.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Good shooting Stu. That rifle is a dang good package... no bias. Ha.

As for under estimating time to get into position.... This is what I try to get people to realize when they talk “speed”- dudes aren’t shooting in 5 to 10 seconds from anything other than an offhand snapshot. The fastest and I mean the fastest times you will see in the field for throwing a pack off, and getting in a shooting position will be 8 to 10 seconds and that is from legit world class shooters.
In hundreds of hunters/shooters when asked how fast they are when seeing an animal, ranging, getting into position, and hitting it, the standard response to the tune of 90+% of them, is- “big bucks/bulls don’t give you time to fiddle with all that stuff. f you aren’t able to kill them with 5 to 10 seconds, they’re gone”. Then we have them do it on a timer..... the time for experienced and seasoned hunters is almost always between 45 and 75 seconds. People having no sense of time, and always way overestimate their abilities. If you aren’t using a timer and a target, you have no idea what capability is.






Jesse,



Yep, practice. Are you saying that you used 45 seconds per string instead of 20?

Negative....my second iteration I did not have 20 rounds remaining. Had 15ish. So I omitted the Prone position from each stage. And on Stage 3 I utilized a 45 second time (as I was omitting the transition/shot from prone). As best of a shit show I could muster on limited ammo. Realize it's not a legit "score". Best I could do with ammo on hand. I'll load more this weekend and shoot/post again early next week. And for the records....I still don't agree with you on Xs. I still like them. Think I shot the whole course on 15X with the SWFA 3-15. Just my findings so far.

 

[koppertop]

Thanks for taking the time to post all this stuff, Formidilosus. I'm hoping to shoot this soon. Any tips on recoil management and staying on target from the sitting position and sitting with a pack for added support?

Someone above mentioned we should probably be paying for this, I agree. Thanks for being generous with your knowledge!

 

[KClark]

Trigger finger not clear of the stock, been there, done that

One of the very few problems on a Tikka, the trigger is too close to the rear of the trigger guard and your trigger finger may wrap the guard. I suppose it's buried deep in there to protect against AD/ND.

 

[Formidilosus]

Negative....my second iteration I did not have 20 rounds remaining. Had 15ish. So I omitted the Prone position from each stage. And on Stage 3 I utilized a 45 second time (as I was omitting the transition/shot from prone).

Ah. Was just curios. 15/20 is not bad.

As to magnification, obviously it can help on something like this. You’re not worried about animals moving, spotting the impact, sorting which animal is the right one now that they moved, reacquiring the correct animal in the scope, applying a follow up shot (hopefully with what you learned from the first shot), seeing the impact and effect, etc. I’m not against magnification, just like I’m not against magnum cartridges. However, people aren’t not killing because the recoil was too little or because they didn’t have 20x magnification. But lots of people have rodeos because of too much recoil, and too little information during and after the shot.

 

[Monty3006]

Thanks for all the information Form.

Haven’t had a chance yet but I’m keen to give this a go. I have been running through it in dry fire though and putting yourself against the clock definitely makes it interesting.

These kind of drills and training are why I have my .223 the same as my 30-06.

 

[TwoTracks]

Great thread. What direction would you steer a guy needing to add a hunting weight 223 to practice with? My hunting rifles are represented with: CRF Mod70/Kimber, Savage, Rem700/Clone actions. As you know, there aren't a lot of hunting weight rifle options that provide a 1/8” twist or greater. Savage Liteweight, Remington Model-7 are both 1/9”. The Tikka and Howa are 1/8” but they don’t replicate any of my larger caliber rifles.

Would it be better to shoot a high volume of 6.5cm out of a current rifle or drop down to the 223 practice, even if the rifle is dissimilar?

Would it be better to add a new action type, the Tikka, even if I don’t own another Tikka?

I have a pretty good supply of 62/64gr 223. Should I just live with a 1/9” barrel and shoot what I have on hand?

There probably isn’t a perfect answer to any of this but I need to steer the train in some direction and I’d like to gain as much skill and leave as little on the table as possible.

Thanks for all your posts and sharing your experience!

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

That was my intent as well. The rifle I used for this test is a chunky 223 Ackley Imp. Short and handy but chunky. Cheap. Lots of ammo for cheap. 8 twist. Think everyone should have something similar. Since relocating to Idaho....I'm considering becoming a Stunt Shooter and trying it on a deer this fall....just to see

 

[Formidilosus]

Great thread. What direction would you steer a guy needing to add a hunting weight 223 to practice with? My hunting rifles are represented with: CRF Mod70/Kimber, Savage, Rem700/Clone actions. As you know, there aren't a lot of hunting weight rifle options that provide a 1/8” twist or greater. Savage Liteweight, Remington Model-7 are both 1/9”. The Tikka and Howa are 1/8” but they don’t replicate any of my larger caliber rifles.

Would it be better to shoot a high volume of 6.5cm out of a current rifle or drop down to the 223 practice, even if the rifle is dissimilar?

Tikka T3x 223 with 1-8” twist. Rifles don’t have to perfectly match for a trainer. You already have different safety’s, so there is no real issue. There’s no problem with 62 and 64 gr bullets, especially for practice, but there is a vast difference between them and good 75+ grain high BC bullets when used past 300. Don’t box yourself into a corner with a slow twist. The T3x is more than “accurate and has a 8” twist”. It’s the sum of its parts that helps with really learning to use a rifle competently. Handling, manipulation, weight, vertical grip, integrated rail, etc. all make it imminently suitable.


The TIkka is the best option on the market.

 

[TwoTracks]

I really appreciate your advice. I’m fortunate enough to be on the range quite often and even shoot with a timer. I’ve never put myself through timed drills with a hunting rifle. This is an eye opener for me. I love putting people on the clock and watching them realize they need more trigger time. This thread has done the same for me. Thanks!

 

[Stu]

Got to work on some loads for the Tikka now that I got a jug of Varget in.

I couldn't get the 75gr ELD to shoot at all. 10 round groups were over 2".

I have had good luck with the 73gr ELD and 75gr Hornady BTHP.
Form, have you used either of these bullets on game? If anyone else has experience I would love to hear it as well.



I was looking for a cheap and quick to load option for practice. I can get the 75 BTHP for 15 cents and measure the XBR pretty darn consistently volumetrically. I don't recommend that powder charge- too hot.

Also, got a couple of rounds of practice in. Noticed myself flinching/anticipating recoil. At least my average was better...
The misses in the first round must have been flyers and the barrel go hot by the second round.

 

[Formidilosus]

I have had good luck with the 73gr ELD and 75gr Hornady BTHP.
Form, have you used either of these bullets on game? If anyone else has experience I would love to hear it as well.

Both. The 73gr ELD-M is good. Wide wound channels with sufficient penetration for deer/lopes. The 75gr HPBT is a penetrator. Kills well while going through bone. I prefer results when impact velocity is above 2,200fps with the HPBT.