Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting

[david2duck]

Printed targets and hoping to try this tomorrow. Thanks for all the great info you guys put out. Appreciate it.

 

[JollyRoger]

I like to baby my stuff.


I think everyone has shot that rifle. It’s coming up on time for a barrel replacement.

I’ve got a ways to go to catch up to that! Would like to hear what you plan for a replacement barrel... factory profile?

Getting these targets gets printed out to try. I’m stoked


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Would like to hear what you plan for a replacement barrel... factory profile?

Either sending back to Tikka for a factory replacement- highly likely, or a 1-6.5” to 1-7” 20-22” with matched profile for shooting 88gr ELD-M’s and 90gr ATIP’s

 

[Formidilosus]

Where’s the results guys?



Meant to post the other day. Good day but windy 20-25mph gusts.


Went out to play with some Mexican match loads that day, and threw the drill in . BH 77gr SMK (at least this two lot #’s) has opened up to right at 2 MOA for ten rounds. 3 rounds “groups” are still averaging sub .6 MOA. Funny how that works. 77gr TMK’s are still 1.2-1.3 MOA for ten.

 

[Low_Sky]

Where’s the results guys?

I'd have played along by now, but my range is shut down and Alaska is entering breakup season, so it's time to stay off any trails that would get me to where I can shoot on public land. Haven't forgot about this one, but life is calling the shots right now.

 

[Lawnboi]

Shot it the other day with 22lr. Pretty windy. Ended up with 14/20. Pretty poor, would like to give it a go with my 223 next time I’m out.

 

[Blaw]

NICE!! Im pumped I came across this. Exactly what was needed!

Thanks Form!

 

[Patch]

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions. It’s an attempt to get to actually using your rifles.


People online tend to act like 600/800/whatever yards is a rifle, cartridge and BDC scope purchase away. When someone asks for advice, or says I’m building an -insert whatever rifle/cartridge you want-, people are discussing hardware not practice and skill. Lots will say that practice is a given but it is not. 6 year olds spend more time practicing T-ball, than anyone practices using a lethal instrument and taking a life. Damn near every modern CF rifle is a 600 yard hunting gun with a solid scope combined with a knowledgeable and skilled shooter. No rifle is a solid 300 yard gun without it.

That is why they recommend what they do. Very few people are skilled enough at shooting distance, and even fewer have an experience base large enough to to teach/coach people what it takes to bring someone from a box a year hunter, to on demand cleaning killing game past 200-300 yards in backpacking environments.

I have to take a couple dozen people a year and get them truly competent from 0-600m at realistic sized targets (sub 12”) from field conditions in relatively tight time constraints, under stress, when NOT using dedicated long range rifles. I.E.- not much different than hunting. So when someone is asking for help, and their first priority is anything other than practice and proficiency... I take pause. It’s not just me. There is a small minority is some threads that are trying to bring sanity to these things, but they get drowned out by the “I just built X” crowd.

Anything other than round count with structured practice that leads to on demand performance under hunting conditions is mental and ballistic masturbation. It shows up constantly on both the range and during hunting- a custom magnum rifle, with sketchy scope, and low round count, leads to missing and wounding animals.

The less someone shoots, the more reliable and consistent their rifle and scope needs to be, the smaller the cartridge needs to be, and the shorter their max range on animals needs to be- not the reverse. Ryan Avery can shoot a big magnum in a 8lb rifle well and experiment with scopes that may not be as reliable because he is shooting every week and has the ability and skill to quickly recover and diagnose when things go wrong. A quick “ah chit” moment for people that shoot several thousand rounds a year under hunting conditions, is a catastrophic rodeo that probably results in a lost animal for anyone that doesn’t practice like that.


People aren’t missing animals because they don’t have a big enough gun, or enough magnification. They miss due to lack of skill and knowledge. There is a path that consistently works to take a “normal” hunter and make them truly solid at mid ranges in a spring and summer. It’s not the only way, but it has proven to work consistently and faster than any way which I, or those I’m around have seen.


A snapshot of how someone can gain solid ability at mid range shooting by this fall...

Two cases of ammo that has low recoil, a solid and consistent rifle, a scope that unquestionably works, and practice. Rifles, scopes and cartridge/ammo is discussed Ad nauseam. The practice is conspicuously absent nearly everywhere.

A start-

Grouping prone, from a front and rear sandbag until 10 round groups are 1.5’ish MOA. Once on consistent precision from a rest is achieved, then prone over a backpack until 10 round groups are 1.5 MOA and no larger than 2 MOA on demand. Same for a bipod if using one.
Once someone can lay down at any point and hit a 2 MOA target with every round fired over a pack, then positional work needs to happen. Sitting and kneeling using alternate rests, primarily a pack if you use one, but with hiking sticks, tripod, downed trees, etc. 2 MOA targets should be consistent from these positions. Then standing using both rests and offhand.

A decent standard is offhand out to 100, standing with sticks at 100-150, sitting unsupported out to 200-250, sitting or kneeling with a pack or sticks out to 300-350, and prone with a pack, etc past that. When someone can go from standing with all straps buckled and all gear on their person, in 20 seconds or less to get two hits on targets at their desired distance/size, then worry about shooting past 100 yards and wind.


A great drill that works very well is below that a gent came up with on another board. It’s been slightly modified a bit to reflect more realistically required skills.




100 Yard Hunting Rifle Test

Print out one each of these targets and post them up at 100 yards. This works best if you are using a setup that can be zeroed dead on at 100, however if you zero at a different range (200, 300, etc) is that zero as it will show using hold unders for hitting realistic targets. Each string starts standing with all equipment in hand or on body, I.E.- wearing pack, hiking sticks in hand, etc. If you carry empty chamber- all strings start with empty chamber.

DO IT EXACTLY HOW YOU CARRY WHILE HUNTING!
(They need to be printed out at 100% scale, and then they are still in shooter MOA, not true MOA). All shot at 100 yards.


STRING 1: No time limits.

7MOA = 2 shots offhand
5MOA = 2 shots sitting unsupported
3MOA = 2 shots sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack
2MOA = 2 shots prone (can use a pack, but no rear bag, no bipod)



STRING 2: Is a repeat of string one, but with a 20 second par time. I set a timer on my phone, if the shot isn't taken BEFORE the buzzer, it doesn't count.


7MOA = 2 shots offhand in 20 seconds
5MOA = 2 shots sitting unsupported in 20 seconds
3MOA = 2 shots sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack in 20 seconds
2MOA = 2 shots prone in 15 seconds (can use pack, but no bipod and no rear bag)





STRING 3: is a "medley". One shot from each position, with a 60 second par time.

60 seconds to go fromstanding with all gear strapped in, to-

7MOA = 1 shot offhand
5MOA = 1 shot sitting unsupported
3MOA = 1 shot sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack
2MOA = 1 shot prone (can use pack, but no bipod and no rear bag)


It's scored out of 20. A decent score is in the 15/20 range, 17 to 18 should be the goal for the first year. It’s an excellent diagnostic tool as well as a great way to practice, and has a high correlation to performance with spot and stalk hunting shots.

Looking to get some reliable instruction on shooting both rifle and pistol. Any recomendations?

 

[Tentman]

What an excellent concept. Every shot taken at game is a "scored shot". I find that shooters who consistently shoot scored targets (or tests like this one) are generally much better at at taking game cleanly at reasonable distances. There is no such thing shooting at game as explaining away a larger than desired group with the old chestnut "oh I dropped one in that group" or shucking in the third round for a shot at the x hundreds gong and walking off satisfied with that third shot "ping" . . .

Have printed off the test and will shoot it with a 22 tomorrow (we are locked down here so can't get to a place to use a C/F)

 

[Castle Rock]

Hey F what do you think of that pistol grip, I was thinking of trying one

 

[Vinootz]

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions. It’s an attempt to get to actually using your rifles.


People online tend to act like 600/800/whatever yards is a rifle, cartridge and BDC scope purchase away. When someone asks for advice, or says I’m building an -insert whatever rifle/cartridge you want-, people are discussing hardware not practice and skill. Lots will say that practice is a given but it is not. 6 year olds spend more time practicing T-ball, than anyone practices using a lethal instrument and taking a life. Damn near every modern CF rifle is a 600 yard hunting gun with a solid scope combined with a knowledgeable and skilled shooter. No rifle is a solid 300 yard gun without it.

That is why they recommend what they do. Very few people are skilled enough at shooting distance, and even fewer have an experience base large enough to to teach/coach people what it takes to bring someone from a box a year hunter, to on demand cleaning killing game past 200-300 yards in backpacking environments.

I have to take a couple dozen people a year and get them truly competent from 0-600m at realistic sized targets (sub 12”) from field conditions in relatively tight time constraints, under stress, when NOT using dedicated long range rifles. I.E.- not much different than hunting. So when someone is asking for help, and their first priority is anything other than practice and proficiency... I take pause. It’s not just me. There is a small minority is some threads that are trying to bring sanity to these things, but they get drowned out by the “I just built X” crowd.

Anything other than round count with structured practice that leads to on demand performance under hunting conditions is mental and ballistic masturbation. It shows up constantly on both the range and during hunting- a custom magnum rifle, with sketchy scope, and low round count, leads to missing and wounding animals.

The less someone shoots, the more reliable and consistent their rifle and scope needs to be, the smaller the cartridge needs to be, and the shorter their max range on animals needs to be- not the reverse. Ryan Avery can shoot a big magnum in a 8lb rifle well and experiment with scopes that may not be as reliable because he is shooting every week and has the ability and skill to quickly recover and diagnose when things go wrong. A quick “ah chit” moment for people that shoot several thousand rounds a year under hunting conditions, is a catastrophic rodeo that probably results in a lost animal for anyone that doesn’t practice like that.


People aren’t missing animals because they don’t have a big enough gun, or enough magnification. They miss due to lack of skill and knowledge. There is a path that consistently works to take a “normal” hunter and make them truly solid at mid ranges in a spring and summer. It’s not the only way, but it has proven to work consistently and faster than any way which I, or those I’m around have seen.


A snapshot of how someone can gain solid ability at mid range shooting by this fall...

Two cases of ammo that has low recoil, a solid and consistent rifle, a scope that unquestionably works, and practice. Rifles, scopes and cartridge/ammo is discussed Ad nauseam. The practice is conspicuously absent nearly everywhere.

A start-

Grouping prone, from a front and rear sandbag until 10 round groups are 1.5’ish MOA. Once on consistent precision from a rest is achieved, then prone over a backpack until 10 round groups are 1.5 MOA and no larger than 2 MOA on demand. Same for a bipod if using one.
Once someone can lay down at any point and hit a 2 MOA target with every round fired over a pack, then positional work needs to happen. Sitting and kneeling using alternate rests, primarily a pack if you use one, but with hiking sticks, tripod, downed trees, etc. 2 MOA targets should be consistent from these positions. Then standing using both rests and offhand.

A decent standard is offhand out to 100, standing with sticks at 100-150, sitting unsupported out to 200-250, sitting or kneeling with a pack or sticks out to 300-350, and prone with a pack, etc past that. When someone can go from standing with all straps buckled and all gear on their person, in 20 seconds or less to get two hits on targets at their desired distance/size, then worry about shooting past 100 yards and wind.


A great drill that works very well is below that a gent came up with on another board. It’s been slightly modified a bit to reflect more realistically required skills.




100 Yard Hunting Rifle Test

Print out one each of these targets and post them up at 100 yards. This works best if you are using a setup that can be zeroed dead on at 100, however if you zero at a different range (200, 300, etc) is that zero as it will show using hold unders for hitting realistic targets. Each string starts standing with all equipment in hand or on body, I.E.- wearing pack, hiking sticks in hand, etc. If you carry empty chamber- all strings start with empty chamber.

DO IT EXACTLY HOW YOU CARRY WHILE HUNTING!
(They need to be printed out at 100% scale, and then they are still in shooter MOA, not true MOA). All shot at 100 yards.


STRING 1: No time limits.

7MOA = 2 shots offhand
5MOA = 2 shots sitting unsupported
3MOA = 2 shots sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack
2MOA = 2 shots prone (can use a pack, but no rear bag, no bipod)



STRING 2: Is a repeat of string one, but with a 20 second par time. I set a timer on my phone, if the shot isn't taken BEFORE the buzzer, it doesn't count.


7MOA = 2 shots offhand in 20 seconds
5MOA = 2 shots sitting unsupported in 20 seconds
3MOA = 2 shots sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack in 20 seconds
2MOA = 2 shots prone in 15 seconds (can use pack, but no bipod and no rear bag)





STRING 3: is a "medley". One shot from each position, with a 60 second par time.

60 seconds to go fromstanding with all gear strapped in, to-

7MOA = 1 shot offhand
5MOA = 1 shot sitting unsupported
3MOA = 1 shot sitting or keeling with sticks or backpack
2MOA = 1 shot prone (can use pack, but no bipod and no rear bag)


It's scored out of 20. A decent score is in the 15/20 range, 17 to 18 should be the goal for the first year. It’s an excellent diagnostic tool as well as a great way to practice, and has a high correlation to performance with spot and stalk hunting shots.

In short: practice and shoot at game within your ability. I think I’ve heard that somewhere before. Lol. All kidding aside though your long version has good intentions. Personally I just always practice offhand out to 300. Then any supported position is a breeze after that. I would never shoot at game offhand beyond 200(even less mostly) but it builds confidence when you can hit a target the equivalent of the kill zone -at 300 offhand 90% of the time with a first shot cold bore. I’ve gotten to that percentage at 200 last year but have kinda lost it due to less practice. At 300 my percentage was less with a cold bore shot offhand. But with goals like that you will likely not miss a 300 yards in any supported position. Also, at 300 you got to start paying careful attention to wind. I will practice a few shots off of sticks and will practice on windy days as well. Every day I wake up I step out on my terrace on the ocean and try to determine wind speed. Then I check the local wind reading on my iPhone. I also look at the tree branches, flagswater caps and feel of wind on my face to make windage determination second nature.
I also plotted different ranges up the intracoastal with a rangefinder and regularly ingrain the distances of the plotted structures to have a natural sense of various distances. You never know when a rangefinder malfunctions or there is no time.
I won’t even bother with long range(well mid range by today’s standards). I prefer stalking in to within 300 at most. MBPR (to 300)with a minor hold over(or under inside 100) will likely prevent any misses. Again so long as you practice, know your rifle,cartridge and ability. Always shoot supported when hunting unless a quick shot inside 100 is the only option.

 

[Mosster47]

This is a great thread.

I grew up shooting offhand and I did it a ton from a 10 pump air rifle up to a 300wm. Shooting from bags was to zero a rifle and that's it. I was completely confident in my ability to shoot offhand out to 250-300ish. Whatever distance was under 12" of drop for that weapon I would take the shot and I didn't miss when it counted either.

Then about ten years age I went out with a buddy that had gotten into distance shooting and I was awful at it. I mean I was shooting 2ft groups at 800 yards with a .25 MOA rifle. So, of course I went down that rabbit hole and got really good off a bag, bipod, pack, etc. I pretty much never shot offhand for about three or four years and completely stopped small game hunting.

I didn't draw the archery deer tag I wanted one year and decided to do an OTC rifle hunt. I get an offhand shot at a buck about 150 yards away and this was my first attempt at an offhand shot in years and it felt like trying to land a brick on an aircraft carrier. I had way too much magnification, my crosshairs are all over the place, my perfect breath and squeeze style trigger pull was just not going to work. I couldn't even take the shot.

Coming out of that I sold all of my distance builds and now everything I have I shoot both ways and limit the distance to 600 yards. That's a 12" zone if I'm 2MOA which I can live with. Shooting offhand is really hard. Shooting past 300 yards is really hard. Very few people with a job, family, etc. have the time, money, or desire to put the trigger time in to be able to shoot both ways to just be a ringer in every scenario out to 1,000 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

Looking to get some reliable instruction on shooting both rifle and pistol. Any recomendations?

Pistol is easy- Esoteric Llc.

Rifle, if you mean hunting rifle like presented here, not so much.

Hey F what do you think of that pistol grip, I was thinking of trying one

The vertical grip? It’s on all the T3’s I have that use the factory stocks. Better wrist alignment, and does help with recoil control a bit and spotting impacts.

 

[Formidilosus]

NICE!! Im pumped I came across this. Exactly what was needed!

Thanks Form!

No problem. Try it and let us know how you do.

 

[fightthenoise]

they are still in shooter MOA, not true MOA

Can y'all school me on what this means? I get MOA, but not the difference between shooter vs true.

 

[Formidilosus]

Can y'all school me on what this means? I get MOA, but not the difference between shooter vs true.

True MOA is 1.047” at 100 yards, 2.094” at 200, 3.141” at 300, etc. Shooter MOA is rounded off to be 1” at 100 yard, 2” at 200, 3” at 300, etc. For most things the difference between the two is meaningless. When you start adjusting for distance is when it starts to matter.

 

[rootacres]

Good read, I have a couple comments to add.

First, I am one of the people asking about building a rifle in a particular caliber, with the intention fo shooting a particular distance. Im sure I speak for many, but being here out east in IL of all states we don't have access to long ranges. I pay stupid money to be a part of the only club that offers a 600 yd range. So when I ask about equipment designed for a certain distance its because I have the intention of mastering it to that point and that will be my comfort zone when in the field. There's no question that far too many YouTube heroes go out chucking shots beyond their comfort zone just because the ballistics says they can.

Secondly, I agree there are 100 to 1 questions about gear instead of training. I do feel that technique and training are hard topics to cover when not in person. Shooting schools are without a doubt more valuable than having the next best wiz bang fancy rifle. I too wish there was more dialogue going on about drills to run that would improve ones shooting. I think its partially human nature to want to tinker with gear and some people feel they can buy accuracy. My Dad took his T3X 300 WM with good glass to a shooting school (700 yds was the furthest shot) side-by-side with some best of the west, gunwerks rifles and outshot many of the guys there.

 

[Stu]

Thanks Form, this looked like a real eye opener when I first saw it. Tried it today and can confirm!

I put the Tikka 6.5 Creedmoor back together today after doing some bedding.




Fired a couple of shots to see where I was and then proceeded to a 10round group for zero.



I decided I wanted to try this without any dry practice and without gaming it. I'm accustomed to shooting off sticks, but very rarely fire any bolt guns from unsupported positions. I bought two Tikkas in the past 8 months with the intention of having some practical rifles and building some practical skills.

The first attempt went to hell in a hand basket very quickly. My first attempt at getting from standing wearing pack, sticks on pack, and rifle slung to a supported seated position resulted in no shots fired before 20 seconds had gone by. These are circled below. Also dropped a point due to not getting two shots off in the 15 seconds to get from wearing all gear to prone. I really underestimated the time it takes to get a pack off and a positions setup (and my positions need rehearsal badly).
Also made a mental note to remember that a Tikka doesn't have a 2 stage trigger!



Round two:


Are we counting perforated lines? Hope so...



This reminded me of the first time I went to a pistol competition- humbling.
I bet if enough of us do this, Form will help us with positional shooting and other technique...

 

[fightthenoise]

Thanks Form, this looked like a real eye opener when I first saw it. Tried it today and can confirm!

I put the Tikka 6.5 Creedmoor back together today after doing some bedding.
View attachment 172350View attachment 172351



Fired a couple of shots to see where I was and then proceeded to a 10round group for zero.
View attachment 172352


I decided I wanted to try this without any dry practice and without gaming it. I'm accustomed to shooting off sticks, but very rarely fire any bolt guns from unsupported positions. I bought two Tikkas in the past 8 months with the intention of having some practical rifles and building some practical skills.

The first attempt went to hell in a hand basket very quickly. My first attempt at getting from standing wearing pack, sticks on pack, and rifle slung to a supported seated position resulted in no shots fired before 20 seconds had gone by. These are circled below. Also dropped a point due to not getting two shots off in the 15 seconds to get from wearing all gear to prone. I really underestimated the time it takes to get a pack off and a positions setup (and my positions need rehearsal badly).
Also made a mental note to remember that a Tikka doesn't have a 2 stage trigger!
View attachment 172360


Round two:
View attachment 172362

Are we counting perforated lines? Hope so...

View attachment 172363

This reminded me of the first time I went to a pistol competition- humbling.
I bet if enough of us do this, Form will help us with positional shooting and other technique...

At the risk of sounding like I’m laughing at you (I’m really not) that first round is hilarious. I imagine a drill like this can spiral out of control fast putting anyone in the single digits. Like Form said, an oh shit moment can unravel things in a hurry (accidental discharge anyone?). Props to you for showing that first round and improving. You easily could have just posted that 2nd round.

 

[Stu]

Haha laugh away, brother. For the record, I had sights on target before the trigger finger got on, but you see the result. I simply wasn’t ready/in full control of that round. I’m accustomed to either having a Glock or AR in hand when the timer is running so that was another lesson learned. Can’t believe it took Form to get me to use my timer with this platform.