Elk Hunting Montana Outfitters

[bsnedeker]

Foundation for Wildlife Management already has chapters set up in MT. F4WM.org everyone should join if nothing else to contribute to the expense fund for reimbursements.

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Yeah, I joined last night after Sadler pointed it out to me. If they have meetings here in the valley I'd love to get more involved. Looks like a good group.

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[jjohnsonElknewbie]

It's all the wolves fault...

Missoula region FWP supervisor retires suddenly prior to elk season upheaval

As of Thursday, Mike Thompson is no longer the FWP Region 2 wildlife manager, according to FWP sources. Thompson’s departure appears to be short-notice, leaving some in Region 2 a little stunned. A few are suspicious.

missoulacurrent.com

During the meeting, Blackfoot watershed biologist Scott Eggeman said he was concerned that Worsech’s requirement to combine districts based only on elk characteristics and to get rid of permits in favor of general tags left biologists with fewer tools to work with.

However, some don’t believe the cost of living is the only reason FWP is losing biologists or can’t find people willing to take on wildlife supervisory positions. In just one year, FWP and the state of Montana have pushed through a lot of changes related to wildlife management, and few if any, are backed by science. In fact, FWP Chief of Staff Quentin Kujala said in May that Worsech has put an end to long-term research projects.

Biologists are being told to do things that aren’t necessarily good for the wildlife populations they manage, but if they don’t, they could lose their jobs.

And my personal favorite:

At the December commission meeting, Worsech also said that elk population objectives should be based only on human tolerance, not habitat considerations. That would basically eliminate biology from the question.

Let’s put away the arguing about cats vs wolves for a second. How many of you fellas from MT read this article? You are a passionate and thoughtful bunch of guys, but I haven’t heard anybody except @BuzzH provide any thoughts on the utter disarray going on within the MT FWP. Ya’ll won’t need to worry about cats and wolves anymore if FWP leadership abandons evidence-based research and scientific population management strategies. It sounds like this Worsech guy just wants it to be a free for all.

 

[tcpip95]

I just looked at price list for MTO.
$8,000 for 2x1 general elk + $3,000 trophy fee. Uf-dah...

SO GETTING BACK ON TOPIC…..

If I’m spending that kind of money to truck hunt, get insulted behind my back, and most likely not even get a look - much less a shot - I’m going to go up to Canada and enjoy a guided moose hunt.

Remember: Somebody, somewhere wants and will appreciate your business.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

SO GETTING BACK ON TOPIC…..

If I’m spending that kind of money to truck hunt, get insulted behind my back, and most likely not even get a look - much less a shot - I’m going to go up to Canada and enjoy a guided moose hunt.

Remember: Somebody, somewhere wants and will appreciate your business.

@tcpip95 agree with you but MTO wasn’t the outfit that was shady. MTO was recommended by a few guys on here.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Since this has turned into a predator thread-- I personally have lost a horse and one years harvest of my penned turkeys to a mtn lion. He ate roughly 250 lbs of turkeys in one night that were flightless and in a pen with a 5 ft fence. It left me a bit crabby both times.

I feel the voume of kitties may be related to a limited number of hunters with dogs. Most have killed a big tom and now just like to chase them. The local biologist told me they had they had no one on staff to moniter cats or wolves. She had 4-6 districts to watch deer and elk. The one I hunted in was hers but she said she had never been in it. Frankly it looked like a no win job.

Often I see 1-2 cat tracks per day in the field. I think its a little much.

Two years ago we cut two wolf tracks in an area I have hunted since 88. These were the first I had seen. Most of the wolves I had encountered were on the west side of the Deer Lodge valley.

When wolves first showed up in the lower Clark Fork, if you cut their tracks you had to move to differant drainage. The game had already moved.

This year 8 wolves swept 7 miles of drainages in one night and cleaned out everything but the squirrels. The elk were herded completely out of my range. The neighbor took a real beating on his calves. I sold my cows. I couldn't survive the hay market and the wolves.

The elk herd has been reduced by 50% since 2017. Predators? Fwp shoulder seasons? The biologist told me the shoulder season netted only 40 head. The warden told a friend they netted 1600.

In a nutshell we have a real mess on our hands. There needs to be some serious predator management. There needs to be some serious changes in the mess we have in the Mt FWP. Things are not working and I have a limited number of years left to hunt. How to solve this I don't know but it has to be solved and soon.

 

[tcpip95]

@tcpip95 agree with you but MTO wasn’t the outfit that was shady. MTO was recommended by a few guys on here.

Understand, and apologize for implying the wrong company, but I’m sure the pricing was about the same - and judging by all the scarcity of game, the results will probably be similar.

I was considering a guided elk hunt out west but decided to head to Canada for a guided moose hunt instead. That same money gets me an 8-day moose hunt and a free wolf tag as well.

 

[Deadfall]

Let’s put away the arguing about cats vs wolves for a second. How many of you fellas from MT read this article? You are a passionate and thoughtful bunch of guys, but I haven’t heard anybody except @BuzzH provide any thoughts on the utter disarray going on within the MT FWP. Ya’ll won’t need to worry about cats and wolves anymore if FWP leadership abandons evidence-based research and scientific population management strategies. It sounds like this Worsech guy just wants it to be a free for all.

They trying to make lots of changes. Or atleast looking at the entire system. This is a new regime looking to improve things. There has been and continues to be lots of conversation. The public comment period for all the proposed changes has been extended.

I understand noone trusts government. It would be tough for anyone to trust them less then I do.

I have to say, this is most dialogue I've seen for awhile. Mr. Worsech even called me about some comments I sent in.

They killed some of their ideas before they were even put out for public comment. Because they listened to the people that called in.

In my mind the jury is still out on this regime. They are still new and settling in. Signs point to them getting on tract, but who knows.

As for the predator regulations. It doesn't much matter. The wolves are here. Time will show they are not going away. Letting us have more tags and cheaper tags is not going to change much. The truth is there just are not very many successful predator hunters. Not enough to have a big enough impact to give any ammo too the other side.

The other side can speculate and throw accusations all over the place as they always have. That's just a bunch of blow holes. That's how they've always been though.

The other side hasn't used science ever that I know of.

When the dust settles and everyone gets thier emotions in check, this regime will be ok.

Things are changing, like it or not we have to be involved now. There are alot of voices from antis and private land folks. We are the biggest strongest voice though. We best start using our power. Otherwise we will be shut out.

Lots of people like spreading hate and discontent. Being Uber emotional. That's fine.

So far my experience with the commision has been only positive. Then again I do more then just bitch. If I disagree with some idea they have, I send in a different solution.

I cannot same the same for some if our supposed public land diy advocates. Especially the self proclaimed professionals. I've been called names and even banned from a different forum. Which, I new what I was walking into when dealing with that particular forum. Or atleast I had suspicion.

 

[Deadfall]

Since this has turned into a predator thread-- I personally have lost a horse and one years harvest of my penned turkeys to a mtn lion. He ate roughly 250 lbs of turkeys in one night that were flightless and in a pen with a 5 ft fence. It left me a bit crabby both times.

I feel the voume of kitties may be related to a limited number of hunters with dogs. Most have killed a big tom and now just like to chase them. The local biologist told me they had they had no one on staff to moniter cats or wolves. She had 4-6 districts to watch deer and elk. The one I hunted in was hers but she said she had never been in it. Frankly it looked like a no win job.

Often I see 1-2 cat tracks per day in the field. I think its a little much.

Two years ago we cut two wolf tracks in an area I have hunted since 88. These were the first I had seen. Most of the wolves I had encountered were on the west side of the Deer Lodge valley.

When wolves first showed up in the lower Clark Fork, if you cut their tracks you had to move to differant drainage. The game had already moved.

This year 8 wolves swept 7 miles of drainages in one night and cleaned out everything but the squirrels. The elk were herded completely out of my range. The neighbor took a real beating on his calves. I sold my cows. I couldn't survive the hay market and the wolves.

The elk herd has been reduced by 50% since 2017. Predators? Fwp shoulder seasons? The biologist told me the shoulder season netted only 40 head. The warden told a friend they netted 1600.

In a nutshell we have a real mess on our hands. There needs to be some serious predator management. There needs to be some serious changes in the mess we have in the Mt FWP. Things are not working and I have a limited number of years left to hunt. How to solve this I don't know but it has to be solved and soon.

I believe this is exactly what hank is trying to do. Some of his stuff may be out of wack. I do think his heart is in right place. I understand noone likes change. It's coming regardless

 

[BuzzH]

I believe this is exactly what hank is trying to do. Some of his stuff may be out of wack. I do think his heart is in right place. I understand noone likes change. It's coming regardless

If what I'm hearing about Worsech is true...he may not be the Director for long. I so hope its true.

He is a total shit-show from stem to stern...his heart is not in the right place, and the leash that GG has on him is nice and snug. The same as the leash the wealthy landowners and MOGA have around GG's neck.

You think its right that Worsech gave wealthy landowners bull permits in areas the public might draw once every 10-12-15 years? I won't apologize for saying that's complete bullshit and totally inappropriate as well as a slap in the face of every R and NR elk hunter in the State.

When you don't manage elk based on science, carrying capacity, etc. but landowner tolerance of elk...Houston, we don't just have a problem, its to the point we aren't making it back.

When you cut every long term study simply because you don't like what the biology is showing...fold up the tent, its over in Montana.

The wolves are wrecking hunting...

Worsech...hold my beer and watch this.

 

[mtluckydan]

With 16 years of Dems controlling MTFWP it no surprise things got messed up. They should have gotten on the same predator program that Idaho was on and for the most part, Wyoming never conceded to Buzz and the Feds. Guess that's why Buzz has such good hunting over there in Wyoming. I don't know if this new FWP director will make the cut and the party in control upset a lot of elk hunters with the BS they pulled with the bull tags last year....let alone what they just tried to get through recently. They already had to back pedal on the elk changes and I'm not sure they're going to be successful getting their agenda through the public review. In watching some of the things FWP have done in the last twenty years, I'm not impressed. There are definitely a contingent of new employees that are not hunters and fisherman in the game agencies across the country and that won't lead to the best choices for the resource. I would agree with Buzz the elk management could be considerably better in Montana, but they are also managing mostly for numbers and not trophy quality in most cases. On the flip side, if you look at some of the top end elk killed in the last ten years, there have been some exceptional animals. If you look at where many of those animals are taken, it's not in the western part of the state with the higher overall predator numbers.

 

[BuzzH]

With 16 years of Dems controlling MTFWP it no surprise things got messed up. They should have gotten on the same predator program that Idaho was on and for the most part, Wyoming never conceded to Buzz and the Feds. Guess that's why Buzz has such good hunting over there in Wyoming. I don't know if this new FWP director will make the cut and the party in control upset a lot of elk hunters with the BS they pulled with the bull tags last year....let alone what they just tried to get through recently. They already had to back pedal on the elk changes and I'm not sure they're going to be successful getting their agenda through the public review. In watching some of the things FWP have done in the last twenty years, I'm not impressed. There are definitely a contingent of new employees that are not hunters and fisherman in the game agencies across the country and that won't lead to the best choices for the resource. I would agree with Buzz the elk management could be considerably better in Montana, but they are also managing mostly for numbers and not trophy quality in most cases. On the flip side, if you look at some of the top end elk killed in the last ten years, there have been some exceptional animals. If you look at where many of those animals are taken, it's not in the western part of the state with the higher overall predator numbers.

In the last 20 years....how about closer to 30 years.

The first EMP was the beginning of the end, what was that 1994? Couple that with Barrett's bill (R) Dillon, the final nail was in the coffin.

If the FWP is managing elk for numbers, they aren't doing worth a shit at that. Not only do we have crap for numbers, but trophy quality, cow/calf ratio's, and age structure sucks too. They can't even reach the ridiculously low objectives in the EMP in a large swath of some of the best elk habitat in the State.

Would be a total wreck if the elk objectives were actually based on biology, instead of sociology.

The reason no good elk come from Western Montana anymore is because that part of the state is mostly public land. Increased technology, and 11 weeks of pounding by 120K licensed OTC Montana hunters with unfettered access to elk, doesn't make conditions conducive to trophy quality.

A public land elk can only dodge hunters for so long...and 11 weeks worth of people on your ass from daylight to dark, its not a matter of "if", just "when".

 

[BuzzH]

With 16 years of Dems controlling MTFWP it no surprise things got messed up. They should have gotten on the same predator program that Idaho was on and for the most part, Wyoming never conceded to Buzz and the Feds. Guess that's why Buzz has such good hunting over there in Wyoming. I don't know if this new FWP director will make the cut and the party in control upset a lot of elk hunters with the BS they pulled with the bull tags last year....let alone what they just tried to get through recently. They already had to back pedal on the elk changes and I'm not sure they're going to be successful getting their agenda through the public review. In watching some of the things FWP have done in the last twenty years, I'm not impressed. There are definitely a contingent of new employees that are not hunters and fisherman in the game agencies across the country and that won't lead to the best choices for the resource. I would agree with Buzz the elk management could be considerably better in Montana, but they are also managing mostly for numbers and not trophy quality in most cases. On the flip side, if you look at some of the top end elk killed in the last ten years, there have been some exceptional animals. If you look at where many of those animals are taken, it's not in the western part of the state with the higher overall predator numbers.

The reason we have good elk hunting in Wyoming is because elk are actually managed based on science/biology instead of landowner tolerance.

Our general recreation elk herds have to maintain 18-22 bulls per 100 cows post harvest. If the BTC ratio drops below that, spikes are excluded from harvest and/or seasons are shortened. Our Archery season in general areas runs the month of September, rifle seasons are usually 15-16 days and that's it. We don't hunt them for 11 weeks and we don't hunt them in most general areas into November.

Our special management herds have to maintain 30-40 bulls per 100 cows post harvest. Tags are reduced if BTC ratio's drop below that. Many of the herds under special management exceed 50 bulls per 100 cows post harvest.

Management and management strategies matter...along with actually practicing biology.

Most of Western Montana is lucky to have 8 bulls per 100 cows post harvest and nothing changes if its less. Oh, well, forgive me...yes it did this year. The FWP added another 10 days of muzzleloader hunting on herds with 8 observed elk and single digit bull to cow ratio's...along with the same 11 weeks of general hunting. Brilliant...but its all the wolves.

Lack of Management matters too, as well as "managing" the exact same way you did, with the exact same season structure you had in the 1950's. Instead of managing with biology, its sociology.

As one good friend of mine told me about 25 years ago, "Any good animal killed in Montana is not because of the MTFWP, its in SPITE of the MTFWP."

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

SO GETTING BACK ON TOPIC…..

If I’m spending that kind of money to truck hunt, get insulted behind my back, and most likely not even get a look - much less a shot - I’m going to go up to Canada and enjoy a guided moose hunt.

Remember: Somebody, somewhere wants and will appreciate your business.

@tcpip95 agree with you but MTO wasn’t the outfit that was shady. MTO was recommended by a few guys on here

 

[Deadfall]

If what I'm hearing about Worsech is true...he may not be the Director for long. I so hope its true.

He is a total shit-show from stem to stern...his heart is not in the right place, and the leash that GG has on him is nice and snug. The same as the leash the wealthy landowners and MOGA have around GG's neck.

You think its right that Worsech gave wealthy landowners bull permits in areas the public might draw once every 10-12-15 years? I won't apologize for saying that's complete bullshit and totally inappropriate as well as a slap in the face of every R and NR elk hunter in the State.

When you don't manage elk based on science, carrying capacity, etc. but landowner tolerance of elk...Houston, we don't just have a problem, its to the point we aren't making it back.

When you cut every long term study simply because you don't like what the biology is showing...fold up the tent, its over in Montana.

The wolves are wrecking hunting...

Worsech...hold my beer and watch this.

I dont understand why people are rooting for failure.

I'm not sure what bull permits you are referring to? So I have no comment on that. Other than to say I know a landowner in belts and he DOES NOT get a tag every year for his property.

As for the elk management plan...well it's been outdated by a decade or so. The original plan was not based in science. Objectives have never been based on biology.

I'm not sure where all your hatred of these folks is coming from. I have had only good experiences with these guys up to this point anyway.

MOGA does not have a grip on anything. Especially after thier nonsense last year.

If all of us peasant folk would start bending the ears of our politicians as much as the wealthy do. Politicians would definitely be on our side. Last year proved that.

Last year also proved that our folks in office are only human. They need just as much grace and forgiveness as the rest of us.

They sure are willing to change thier minds. So long as we bring ideas and not just complaints. They want to make as many people happy as possible. What a thankless job they have

 

[Deadfall]

Landowners are not going away. Public land diy are not going away. Outfitters are not going away.

We best find a way to work together. If we do not, hunting will go away.

Mr. Worsech is open to all ideas. People hate change. It is time for some changes in montana. Mr worsech is looking for the best routes to improve our balances.

Right now we are in the rough draft phase of this brain storming. There has been and will continue to be lots of additions and subtractions.

If we all ban together we have a golden opportunity to improve alot of things that have been broken for a long time.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I dont understand why people are rooting for failure.

I'm not sure what bull permits you are referring to? So I have no comment on that. Other than to say I know a landowner in belts and he DOES NOT get a tag every year for his property.

As for the elk management plan...well it's been outdated by a decade or so. The original plan was not based in science. Objectives have never been based on biology.

I'm not sure where all your hatred of these folks is coming from. I have had only good experiences with these guys up to this point anyway.

MOGA does not have a grip on anything. Especially after thier nonsense last year.

If all of us peasant folk would start bending the ears of our politicians as much as the wealthy do. Politicians would definitely be on our side. Last year proved that.

Last year also proved that our folks in office are only human. They need just as much grace and forgiveness as the rest of us.

They sure are willing to change thier minds. So long as we bring ideas and not just complaints. They want to make as many people happy as possible. What a thankless job they have

Thank you for the information and context on the struggle guys. This gives me serious pause about my hunt in Sep. I now fully and truly understand and appreciate the magnitude of the hunt and how absolutely blessed I was to have the opportunity to shoot the bull I did. On the flip side, as a NR on his first Western big game hunt, I admit I feel somewhat guilty about it after hearing about how many R and NR have hunted their entire lives and had to put up with poor numbers and low harvests. Ya’ll certainly deserve it more than I did.

To sound like a broken record, if there was one change I would advocate MTFWP implement, it would be mandatory harvest reporting. You don’t need check stations that require even more Human Resources, they should follow the digital model that Iowa and other states use. Issue tags with harvest registration numbers on them. After a hunter kills an animal they have 24 hours to call it in. The system is 100% automated. Again, if surveys on existing populations are challenging, with a harvest reporting system at least you have solid hunter-related mortality data.

 

[Deadfall]

Thank you for the information and context on the struggle guys. This gives me serious pause about my hunt in Sep. I now fully and truly understand and appreciate the magnitude of the hunt and how absolutely blessed I was to have the opportunity to shoot the bull I did. On the flip side, as a NR on his first Western big game hunt, I admit I feel somewhat guilty about it after hearing about how many R and NR have hunted their entire lives and had to put up with poor numbers and low harvests. Ya’ll certainly deserve it more than I did.

To sound like a broken record, if there was one change I would advocate MTFWP implement, it would be mandatory harvest reporting. You don’t need check stations that require even more Human Resources, they should follow the digital model that Iowa and other states use. Issue tags with harvest registration numbers on them. After a hunter kills an animal they have 24 hours to call it in. The system is 100% automated. Again, if surveys on existing populations are challenging, with a harvest reporting system at least you have solid hunter-related mortality data.

While things are not perfect in montana. It's not as dire as has been expressed.

You should not feel bad about getting a tag and coming to hunt. Your dollars ad a NR, help fund these changes and management.

Noone deserves a tag or hunt more then anyone else. That's the beauty of this country. Work hard be disciplined and good things happen.

DO NOT feel guilty. There are piles and piles of folks that are unsuccessful because they rather complain instead of getting out of the yuppy mobiles and getting after it.

Some guys get after it but are green and learning.

There's piles of things at play.

I'm a resident. I'm glad you came to our state supported a outfitter, had a good hunt and enjoyed yourself.

Come on back. Continue doing your due diligence and being successful.

Outfitter I work for was 50 percent during rifle last year. That's in the BOB.

We hunt predators hard. As a result there are areas they just don't hang in anymore. When they do....well too bad for them...

We need more predator hunters though. Sooner or later it's going to be too much. This is one of things FWP is trying to fix.

We need the NR dollars

 

[BuzzH]

They need just as much grace and forgiveness as the rest of us.

They sure are willing to change thier minds. So long as we bring ideas and not just complaints. They want to make as many people happy as possible.

Naive...and done before you started. Playing nice is how Sportsmen have taken it in the teeth in Montana, right along with our wildlife resources.

Pun be intended, and Montana Sportsmen need to take a page out of Alejandro's playbook:

 

[Deadfall]

Nah...sportsman taking it in teeth so long because all we do is complain about what everyone is doing to us. Instead of getting involved in a positive way. Our problems are of our own making.

 

[BuzzH]

Nah...sportsman taking it in teeth so long because all we do is complain about what everyone is doing to us. Instead of getting involved in a positive way. Our problems are of our own making.

Agree that not enough are involved...However, too many of those involved are too meek and timid.

This is not, and never has been, a game for the meek and timid.

Playing nice gets you a participation trophy, best case. Compromise is for losers.