Elk Hunting Montana Outfitters

[strattonje2020]

At one time fields were full of bison and elk stretched across the whole country( grizzly, wolfs and lions were there too). Besides calfs elk have almost no known predators on the east coast. I don't see a few coyotes easily killing a herd of elk anyways. and i also don't see black beers killing a full grown healthy elk. So humans seem to be soley responsible for over hunting the population down.

Humans are obviously the detriment to any species as we break the eco system. It seems like it would be common sense, if the wolfs kill lets say 1500 elk a year. that in their reintroduction Montana would have would have to take 1500 elk from hunters to maintain the 1980s "pre" wolf reintroduction eco balance of elk. then from day 1 they would have to kill wolfs off at the reproduction rate.

Lets also say you have to walk 250 miles on average to harvest a bull each season. if so many animals were being killed by wolfs and lions you'd think I'd come across a few elk carcasses.

 

[strattonje2020]

 

[BuzzH]

At one time fields were full of bison and elk stretched across the whole country( grizzly, wolfs and lions were there too). Besides calfs elk have almost no known predators on the east coast. I don't see a few coyotes easily killing a herd of elk anyways. and i also don't see black beers killing a full grown healthy elk. So humans seem to be soley responsible for over hunting the population down.

Humans are obviously the detriment to any species as we break the eco system. It seems like it would be common sense, if the wolfs kill lets say 1500 elk a year. that in their reintroduction Montana would have would have to take 1500 elk from hunters to maintain the 1980s "pre" wolf reintroduction eco balance of elk. then from day 1 they would have to kill wolfs off at the reproduction rate.

Lets also say you have to walk 250 miles on average to harvest a bull each season. if so many animals were being killed by wolfs and lions you'd think I'd come across a few elk carcasses.

Or reduce the lion population by about 30....

 

[BuzzH]

View attachment 364799

Nice wolf you have there.

 

[strattonje2020]

Nice wolf you have there.

right lol

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

On top of that we had some of the wettest years up here in the prairie pot hole region and crp was at an all time high. 1997 was my senior year in high school we missed alot of days that winter and up until the last year and half we have been wet. The decline in crp also follows the decline in ducks being hatched in the last decade.

completely off topic sorry

On top of all of that, abyssmal fur prices keeping guys from trapping possums, coons, mink, skunks, and foxes. Hard to have ducklings when they don't have a chance to hatch due to invasions of furbearers.

 

[KurtR]

On top of all of that, abyssmal fur prices keeping guys from trapping possums, coons, mink, skunks, and foxes. Hard to have ducklings when they don't have a chance to hatch due to invasions of furbearers.

Not much for fox around coyotes have killed them off. We have a bounty for those here in Sodak if it works is a big argument but water and habitat are 1A and 1AA by a wide margin

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Not much for fox around coyotes have killed them off. We have a bounty for those here in Sodak if it works is a big argument but water and habitat are 1A and 1AA by a wide margin

I read an article by Pheasants Forever that put my understanding of coyote predation on its head. Its results were counterintuitive in that places with higher coyote density in SD had more birds. The same areas had fewer deer.
Like Pheasants? Thank a Coyote!
Effects of Predators

On the contrary, coyotes are brutal on midwest whitetail populations, especially when the herds are under stress.
How Coyotes Killed Deer Hunting

 

[mtluckydan]

Again Buzz likes to provide only some of the facts...with spin. In comparing areas of Montana by habitat, and in Idaho for that matter, the large wilderness areas with essentially little hunting pressure - in other words hunters aren't making a dent in the elk, deer, wolves or lions, the time since wolves have been on the playing field is relatively short and the damage relatively large. Look at the elk population in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Frank Church Wilderness and on and on. Almost nothing left - most outfitters out of business or really low success rates compared to pre-wolf.

Take the west out of the picture and look at northern Minnesota with essentially just wolves and whitetails - no cats or grizz - there are black bears. Compare today's harvest statistics with pre-wolf. In NW Montana the wolves chewed through the shiras moose and elk first as the imported wolves were already used to killing moose in Canada. The lions predominately kill deer - mostly Whitetail. If you look at the overall population of deer vs elk vs moose and the reproduction rates of each, the deer have the largest population, then elk and lastly moose. The deer population can take more predation from lions and still have a good age structure and not take as long to rebound after bad winters.

In my experience with the wolves on the landscape, when we lose a large number of deer, elk and moose from bad winters, it takes considerably longer for the population to rebound and even longer for the age structure to recover to the animals in most demand by hunters - mature animals. After all, that's why most everyone is on this website to begin with.

Buzz likes to take a study - like his dogs kill more elk than wolves study - or the lion study from the Bitteroot and then apply it everywhere which is not really how things work - his BS not mine.

https://fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/mountain-lion

The above link has great detail on what MTFWP is doing now as I mentioned in an earlier post on tracking and managing lions in Montana. Another spin by Buzz is on lions draw tags vs general tags that they went to in parts of NW Montana. This was to both control the length of the season - what he stated was mostly correct on the season being over in a few short days with many gmu's over quota- and with draw tags they could then limit non-resident lion hunters to less tags just like having elk quotas in the breaks for the very same reason. Montana was being overrun with out of state lion hunters with dogs from other states like Oregon, California and such because they totally shut down lion hunting. It was the lion outfitters in Montana taking advantage of the previous system as with the reporting rules, they could potentially kill a few extra lions at $3-5k a hunt and report at the very end of the required time for reporting. Again a half truth by good ole Buzz.

Buzz has a pretty good track record of using half truths and picking on groups like MTFWP or Houndsmen or Couch Hunters that don't know anything, are lazy and can't hunt. I think most people on here see Buzz for exactly what he is and represents. I'm still waiting for him to reply on how much money he made off the wolf re-introduction. Another good tactic Buzz has is to not answer questions if it's a topic he doesn't want to address.

With respect to Buzz's number on how many ungulates lions or wolves or bears kill a year - he lumps them into one large number and makes it sound like lions are doing the majority of the damage to elk when that just isn't true in NW Montana and large parts of Idaho. I guess if you're in the woods and not finding dead things you're not leaving the road or trail. When I shot my caribou in Alaska and went back to the site a couple days later, you couldn't find a single trace of a dead animal. So if you're not finding dead things that's cause the wolves eat most of the evidence. Cat's don't eat as much and most likely wolves will come along and clean up the extra or chase the cat off the kill. When they're attributing whether wolves kill AG animals for monetary reimbursement that's a common report - not enough left to determine species of predator - pretty slick little method to not pay ranchers.

Just drive down the road in NW Montana and see what you see more of - Whitetails, Elk or Moose. Having picked up thousands of antlers, I can assure you there are many times more Whitetails than elk and then again with Moose. I might find 250-300 whitetail sheds in a season, less than 50 elk sheds and maybe a 5 or less moose paddles - that was before the wolves did their damage. Now those numbers are much less in the areas I ramble. So when Buzz cites his numbers without quantifying them - just more spin.

 

[BuzzH]

Again Buzz likes to provide only some of the facts...with spin. In comparing areas of Montana by habitat, and in Idaho for that matter, the large wilderness areas with essentially little hunting pressure - in other words hunters aren't making a dent in the elk, deer, wolves or lions, the time since wolves have been on the playing field is relatively short and the damage relatively large. Look at the elk population in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Frank Church Wilderness and on and on. Almost nothing left - most outfitters out of business or really low success rates compared to pre-wolf.

Take the west out of the picture and look at northern Minnesota with essentially just wolves and whitetails - no cats or grizz - there are black bears. Compare today's harvest statistics with pre-wolf. In NW Montana the wolves chewed through the shiras moose and elk first as the imported wolves were already used to killing moose in Canada. The lions predominately kill deer - mostly Whitetail. If you look at the overall population of deer vs elk vs moose and the reproduction rates of each, the deer have the largest population, then elk and lastly moose. The deer population can take more predation from lions and still have a good age structure and not take as long to rebound after bad winters.

In my experience with the wolves on the landscape, when we lose a large number of deer, elk and moose from bad winters, it takes considerably longer for the population to rebound and even longer for the age structure to recover to the animals in most demand by hunters - mature animals. After all, that's why most everyone is on this website to begin with.

Buzz likes to take a study - like his dogs kill more elk than wolves study - or the lion study from the Bitteroot and then apply it everywhere which is not really how things work - his BS not mine.

https://fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/mountain-lion

The above link has great detail on what MTFWP is doing now as I mentioned in an earlier post on tracking and managing lions in Montana. Another spin by Buzz is on lions draw tags vs general tags that they went to in parts of NW Montana. This was to both control the length of the season - what he stated was mostly correct on the season being over in a few short days with many gmu's over quota- and with draw tags they could then limit non-resident lion hunters to less tags just like having elk quotas in the breaks for the very same reason. Montana was being overrun with out of state lion hunters with dogs from other states like Oregon, California and such because they totally shut down lion hunting. It was the lion outfitters in Montana taking advantage of the previous system as with the reporting rules, they could potentially kill a few extra lions at $3-5k a hunt and report at the very end of the required time for reporting. Again a half truth by good ole Buzz.

Buzz has a pretty good track record of using half truths and picking on groups like MTFWP or Houndsmen or Couch Hunters that don't know anything, are lazy and can't hunt. I think most people on here see Buzz for exactly what he is and represents. I'm still waiting for him to reply on how much money he made off the wolf re-introduction. Another good tactic Buzz has is to not answer questions if it's a topic he doesn't want to address.

With respect to Buzz's number on how many ungulates lions or wolves or bears kill a year - he lumps them into one large number and makes it sound like lions are doing the majority of the damage to elk when that just isn't true in NW Montana and large parts of Idaho. I guess if you're in the woods and not finding dead things you're not leaving the road or trail. When I shot my caribou in Alaska and went back to the site a couple days later, you couldn't find a single trace of a dead animal. So if you're not finding dead things that's cause the wolves eat most of the evidence. Cat's don't eat as much and most likely wolves will come along and clean up the extra or chase the cat off the kill. When they're attributing whether wolves kill AG animals for monetary reimbursement that's a common report - not enough left to determine species of predator - pretty slick little method to not pay ranchers.

Just drive down the road in NW Montana and see what you see more of - Whitetails, Elk or Moose. Having picked up thousands of antlers, I can assure you there are many times more Whitetails than elk and then again with Moose. I might find 250-300 whitetail sheds in a season, less than 50 elk sheds and maybe a 5 or less moose paddles - that was before the wolves did their damage. Now those numbers are much less in the areas I ramble. So when Buzz cites his numbers without quantifying them - just more spin.

What sources have you EVER cited?

How many lions are there in Montana?

How many ungulates a year does each lion kill?

How many wolves are there?

How many ungulates does each wolf kill a year?

Do the simple math and refute the facts. In NW Montana, and all other areas of Montana lions kill more than double the amount of ungulates. Just a fact.

Refute it or give up with the lies..

Read the various mortality studies on elk, Hebblewhite, etc. found lions kill more elk than wolves, both adults and calves. Which makes sense, since lions have 5 times the population of wolves.

If you cant even get those facts straight or post something other than your "feelings" and outright lies, nobody wants to hear it.

I've told you countless times, I've never made a dime off wolves, wolf reintroduction, or any other wildlife. Period, end of story for the tenth time now. You'll have to find something else to lie about...

For the record, what does picking up sheds have to do with wolf and lion mortality?

I've done a tiny bit of shed hunting in Montana...not sure how that qualifies anyone in regard to predation by lions, wolves, or bears?

Am I more qualified to talk about lions and wolves now, you know since I may have picked up an antler or three?

 

[WCB]

Again Buzz likes to provide only some of the facts...with spin. In comparing areas of Montana by habitat, and in Idaho for that matter, the large wilderness areas with essentially little hunting pressure - in other words hunters aren't making a dent in the elk, deer, wolves or lions, the time since wolves have been on the playing field is relatively short and the damage relatively large. Look at the elk population in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Frank Church Wilderness and on and on. Almost nothing left - most outfitters out of business or really low success rates compared to pre-wolf.

Take the west out of the picture and look at northern Minnesota with essentially just wolves and whitetails - no cats or grizz - there are black bears. Compare today's harvest statistics with pre-wolf. In NW Montana the wolves chewed through the shiras moose and elk first as the imported wolves were already used to killing moose in Canada. The lions predominately kill deer - mostly Whitetail. If you look at the overall population of deer vs elk vs moose and the reproduction rates of each, the deer have the largest population, then elk and lastly moose. The deer population can take more predation from lions and still have a good age structure and not take as long to rebound after bad winters.

In my experience with the wolves on the landscape, when we lose a large number of deer, elk and moose from bad winters, it takes considerably longer for the population to rebound and even longer for the age structure to recover to the animals in most demand by hunters - mature animals. After all, that's why most everyone is on this website to begin with.

Buzz likes to take a study - like his dogs kill more elk than wolves study - or the lion study from the Bitteroot and then apply it everywhere which is not really how things work - his BS not mine.

https://fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/mountain-lion

The above link has great detail on what MTFWP is doing now as I mentioned in an earlier post on tracking and managing lions in Montana. Another spin by Buzz is on lions draw tags vs general tags that they went to in parts of NW Montana. This was to both control the length of the season - what he stated was mostly correct on the season being over in a few short days with many gmu's over quota- and with draw tags they could then limit non-resident lion hunters to less tags just like having elk quotas in the breaks for the very same reason. Montana was being overrun with out of state lion hunters with dogs from other states like Oregon, California and such because they totally shut down lion hunting. It was the lion outfitters in Montana taking advantage of the previous system as with the reporting rules, they could potentially kill a few extra lions at $3-5k a hunt and report at the very end of the required time for reporting. Again a half truth by good ole Buzz.

Buzz has a pretty good track record of using half truths and picking on groups like MTFWP or Houndsmen or Couch Hunters that don't know anything, are lazy and can't hunt. I think most people on here see Buzz for exactly what he is and represents. I'm still waiting for him to reply on how much money he made off the wolf re-introduction. Another good tactic Buzz has is to not answer questions if it's a topic he doesn't want to address.

With respect to Buzz's number on how many ungulates lions or wolves or bears kill a year - he lumps them into one large number and makes it sound like lions are doing the majority of the damage to elk when that just isn't true in NW Montana and large parts of Idaho. I guess if you're in the woods and not finding dead things you're not leaving the road or trail. When I shot my caribou in Alaska and went back to the site a couple days later, you couldn't find a single trace of a dead animal. So if you're not finding dead things that's cause the wolves eat most of the evidence. Cat's don't eat as much and most likely wolves will come along and clean up the extra or chase the cat off the kill. When they're attributing whether wolves kill AG animals for monetary reimbursement that's a common report - not enough left to determine species of predator - pretty slick little method to not pay ranchers.

Just drive down the road in NW Montana and see what you see more of - Whitetails, Elk or Moose. Having picked up thousands of antlers, I can assure you there are many times more Whitetails than elk and then again with Moose. I might find 250-300 whitetail sheds in a season, less than 50 elk sheds and maybe a 5 or less moose paddles - that was before the wolves did their damage. Now those numbers are much less in the areas I ramble. So when Buzz cites his numbers without quantifying them - just more spin.

Minnesota has plenty of lions...DNR doesn't admit too much to it but there is a healthy population.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

So if you're not finding dead things that's cause the wolves eat most of the evidence. Cat's don't eat as much and most likely wolves will come along and clean up the extra or chase the cat off the kill. When they're attributing whether wolves kill AG animals for monetary reimbursement that's a common report - not enough left to determine species of predator - pretty slick little method to not pay ranchers

When we finished gutting, quartering, and packing my elk, one of the hunters asked if he could post up on the carcass and try to shoot a wolf. The guides said grizz would be on the pile by nightfall and the wolves wouldn’t come around till he was done. But I imagine within a couple days it was just a memory.

Forgot to mention that’s a $hitty deal about the ranchers not getting compensated for their losses.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Minnesota has plenty of lions...DNR doesn't admit too much to it but there is a healthy population.

For that matter, Iowa has had a handful of lions passing through and being spotted and/or killed every year the last few years. Last fall there was one that “terrorized” residents in Des Moines. Caught on several city slickers security cameras. Lol!

My cousin got this one on his trail cam a few weeks ago in Hamilton county about 50 miles north of Des Moines in the Skunk River valley.

 

[mtluckydan]

Cougars in Minnesota

www.dnr.state.mn.us

 

[mtluckydan]

Buzz...you're finally talking about something you're knowledgeable about...lying. I could swear I've very recently seen someone with a name like yours telling others to do there own research and find their own links. You post all the time with no backup to your line of bs & spin. You take things out of context regularly and make broad statements with no information whatsoever. What shed hunting has to do with lions, bears and wolves is I may spend a lot of time in the woods and am observant to what changes with respect to elk, deer and moose populations. You've clearly told everyone who cares or don't that you left Montana years ago and I doubt you have done much shed hunting since the wolves have been a factor to game populations.

Even if I did cite specific sources they wouldn't be adequate to overcome your obvious disregard for the damage wolves have caused and will continue to cause on the wild game and domestic animal populations of every state they're in. Until there's a DNA study which I highly doubt will ever happen for wolves no one will know how many there are. They have some idea how many active packs there are and the only population statistics expressed are minimum numbers of wolves which most people would agree are understating the actual population by alot. The pack they killed in the Flathead early on in the wolf program totaled 28 wolves and additional animals were spotted in the area immediately after those were killed so likely from the same pack. The bad press MTFWP got from that one management act was enough to shut down any further discussion on how many they were killing.

There have been similar large packs sited in wilderness areas in Idaho and filmed. Even though you may not agree most reasonable people know that wolves kill for sport and don't eat an entire group of animals they may have killed. There have been documented cases of this activity in wild animals and domestic animals. My experience with lions is they kill an animal and then stay with it until they consume it. You may get a more viable number of animals eaten, but only with accurate population estimates which we know haven't previously existed on a large scale. You talk like these things are rock solid facts and say anyone with high school math could figure it out. If that was the case, you wouldn't have so much to complain about with the game departments. They'd know exactly how many animals there were and how many could be harvested of both predators and game. We both know that's not true.

As far as sources cited, I cited data from the Montana Elk Management plan in an earlier post yesterday to refute your bs, out of context flyover comment. I just cited for the gentleman above the link basically agreeing with my earlier statement regarding no lions in Minnesota - they do have some pass throughs, but no resident population - their information not mine but probably not good enough for you. I did post the link to all the most recent data on Lion tracking and population research in Montana that is part of the current management strategy...again probably not good enough for you. I guess the common theme here is like I said earlier and previously...everyone else has no credibility except you. Any research you supply, regardless of where it occurred applies to support anything you say. All of us are crappy, lazy hunters and you're the best hunter. We should just suck it up and agree that moving wolves wherever the federal government wants them is acceptable such as Colorado or Utah or who knows where else.

 

[mtluckydan]

Montana - Mountain Lion Foundation

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP) conducts population monitoring in two of its ecoregions, the Northwest and West-Central. In the Northwest ecoregion, the median independent-aged density for mountain lions was calculated at 3.7/100 km2. In the West-Central ecoregion, the median...

mountainlion.org

Buzz....This source immediately says Montana overestimates the population by half. You might have to re-work you highschool math a little and downsize your ungulate estimates. My guess is you'll say this is a bad source and MTFWP is right in this case. I wonder how this will change the bottom line on lions vs. wolves. I think they underestimate the wolf population by half. How does that stack up with that calculator mind of yours? I'll keep looking for sources for you to refute....

 

[BuzzH]

Montana - Mountain Lion Foundation

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP) conducts population monitoring in two of its ecoregions, the Northwest and West-Central. In the Northwest ecoregion, the median independent-aged density for mountain lions was calculated at 3.7/100 km2. In the West-Central ecoregion, the median...

mountainlion.org

Buzz....This source immediately says Montana overestimates the population by half. You might have to re-work you highschool math a little and downsize your ungulate estimates. My guess is you'll say this is a bad source and MTFWP is right in this case. I wonder how this will change the bottom line on lions vs. wolves. I think they underestimate the wolf population by half. How does that stack up with that calculator mind of yours? I'll keep looking for sources for you to refute....

Dude...really?

This is what you feel is a reliable source to estimate lion populations in Montana? A group that has an axe to grind with lion hunting? A group that provides zero data on anything to do with how lion populations are determined

You're embarrassing yourself...

 

[mtluckydan]

Article on Cougar Predation

Interesting research on cougar predation. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/mountain-lion-study.41710/

www.hunttalk.com

Here's another link for you Buzz....sounds like you're a broken record. Seems like other hunters and outdoors people here in NW Montana disagree with your line of BS. Like I said earlier....most people see exactly what you stand for. The common theme on how much a lion eats...the studies vary considerably and the population estimates vary even more widely. I guess your simple math isn't so simple.

 

[BuzzH]

Article on Cougar Predation

Interesting research on cougar predation. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/mountain-lion-study.41710/

www.hunttalk.com

Here's another link for you Buzz....sounds like you're a broken record. Seems like other hunters and outdoors people here in NW Montana disagree with your line of BS. Like I said earlier....most people see exactly what you stand for. The common theme on how much a lion eats...the studies vary considerably and the population estimates vary even more widely. I guess your simple math isn't so simple.

Now you're off the rails.

There is no debating there are more lions in Montana than wolves...by a long shot.

There is no debate that a lion kills more ungulates a year than a wolf.

That's verified by mountains of peer reviewed science, not from fwp data.

The data you just provided again proves exactly what I've been telling you all along, lions are killing wayyyy more ungulates in Montana than wolves.

Thank you for confirming that.

 

[mtluckydan]

https://idfg.idaho.gov/old-web/docs/wolves/plan02.pdf

Carbyn (1987) documented that wolves prey on calf elk in excess of their proportion of abundance in the population. Wolves selected older and younger deer and elk than did hunters in northwestern Montana (Kunkel et al. 1999). Vales and Peek (1995) examined several studies that reported the age structure of deer and elk killed by wolves compared to the estimated age structure of the deer and populations (Table 4). In several studies wolves were documented to take old deer in excess of their proportion of abundance in the population, and wolves tended to take elk calves in excess of their abundance in the population (Table 4; Kunkel et al. 1999). Husseman and Power (1999) similarly reported wolves taking elk calves in excess of their proportion of abundance in the population. Fifty-eight percent of elk killed by wolves near Salmon, Idaho during winter 1999 were calves (Husseman and Power 1999); whereas, calves comprised approximately 17% of the elk population in the area at that time (Kuck and Rachael 1999). Kill rates of wolves may vary widely by area and from year to year depending upon primary prey species, prey abundance, and weather conditions, among other factors. Most often the effects on prey populations that are attributable to wolf predation are unknown because of the lack of information on population dynamics of the prey populations and the rates of other mortality sources. However, Kunkel and Pletscher (1999) documented that predation by wolves and other predators (i.e., mountain lions, grizzly bears, black bears, coyotes, and humans) on ungulate species in northwestern Montana appeared to be mostly additive to the effect of other mortality factors and that predation appeared to be the primary factor limiting the growth of deer and elk populations.