Elk Hunting Montana Outfitters

[mtluckydan]

https://idfg.idaho.gov/old-web/docs/wolves/plan02.pdf

Buzz...haven't read the document cover to cover yet, but pretty much supports what myself and others have been saying and you've been denying. Maybe you should polish up your reading skills and try to work through the reading/comprehension of the facts. No one argues that lions kill their share of animals right along with with wolves...and bears are experts at killing fawns/calves. The wolves are the straw that broke the camels back whether you want to admit it or not. There was a long established balance in place before wolves and now that's gone. Keep in mind there's not an endless line of new research on wolf depredation as the cat's out of the bag so to speak...the groups you seem to favor are on to the next thing....lynx & wolverine listing as endangered so we can get trapping stopped altogether and further the overall agenda. I'm surprised with you being such an avid hunter you'd take the tact you take, but I guess almost nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Ross]

https://idfg.idaho.gov/old-web/docs/wolves/plan02.pdf

Buzz...haven't read the document cover to cover yet, but pretty much supports what myself and others have been saying and you've been denying. Maybe you should polish up your reading skills and try to work through the reading/comprehension of the facts. No one argues that lions kill their share of animals right along with with wolves...and bears are experts at killing fawns/calves. The wolves are the straw that broke the camels back whether you want to admit it or not. There was a long established balance in place before wolves and now that's gone. Keep in mind there's not an endless line of new research on wolf depredation as the cat's out of the bag so to speak...the groups you seem to favor are on to the next thing....lynx & wolverine listing as endangered so we can get trapping stopped altogether and further the overall agenda. I'm surprised with you being such an avid hunter you'd take the tact you take, but I guess almost nothing surprises me anymore.

Dan nailed it here, there was a balance prior to wolves…..yes other predators killed elk and deer, but when the wolf arrived, stayed, multiplied and courts/judges delayed the ability to manage them they simply multiplied too quickly in areas where it is difficult to manage them and it has been a losing game ever since ..maybe just maybe if the new seasons can stay in place a balance can be restored, otherwise for your best opportunity stay away from units that are infested with them……

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

@Ross Agree and I think the eeriest thing we experienced when we were in the Bob was the quiet during the day and night. Other than the day I shot mine, we didn't hear any bugles, howling, etc... Honestly, we didn't really see too many birds either other than the occasional grouse. We glassed and observed huge swaths of country during our hunt including burned areas with decent visibility. To see so few animals over 6 full days of hunting was sort of surreal. Somebody on a different thread said if you're in the wolves stay there, because you will be in the deer and elk too. He may be on to something. In our camp the consensus was the predators had just run the vast majority out of the country.

 

[Ross]

@jjohnsonElknewbie you nailed sadly awesome country can be like a morgue and you wonder what is was like decades prior…and if you have been there every year for 42 years you know what has changed it is not bears and lions it is packs and packs and packs of wolves…..they are very smart more than I imagined and when too many, in far removed country not accessible in winter things get out of control….

 

[N.ID7803]

Dan nailed it here, there was a balance prior to wolves…..yes other predators killed elk and deer, but when the wolf arrived, stayed, multiplied and courts/judges delayed the ability to manage them they simply multiplied too quickly in areas where it is difficult to manage them and it has been a losing game ever since ..maybe just maybe if the new seasons can stay in place a balance can be restored, otherwise for your best opportunity stay away from units that are infested with them……

Or @Ross learn how to become a good trapper or a good hunter and hunt them. I bet now that its not $2k per wolf there are a lot less people targeting them. I know I dont care what the reimbursement is I like hunting them, its challenging.

 

[KHNC]

At one time fields were full of bison and elk stretched across the whole country( grizzly, wolfs and lions were there too). Besides calfs elk have almost no known predators on the east coast. I don't see a few coyotes easily killing a herd of elk anyways. and i also don't see black beers killing a full grown healthy elk. So humans seem to be soley responsible for over hunting the population down.

Humans are obviously the detriment to any species as we break the eco system. It seems like it would be common sense, if the wolfs kill lets say 1500 elk a year. that in their reintroduction Montana would have would have to take 1500 elk from hunters to maintain the 1980s "pre" wolf reintroduction eco balance of elk. then from day 1 they would have to kill wolfs off at the reproduction rate.

Lets also say you have to walk 250 miles on average to harvest a bull each season. if so many animals were being killed by wolfs and lions you'd think I'd come across a few elk carcasses.

What is your opinion on the restocking of elk in NC years ago? Specifically regarding black bears and calf mortality. Black bears converge on the elk calving grounds each spring so they can ravage the freshly dropped calves. They effectively kept the elk population from multiplying to a point that game & fish considered giving up on the program entirely. They are in a bear sanctuary (sound familiar to wolves?) so killing the bears is out of the question. They ended up trapping bears and relocating them during the spring calf season. This has worked somewhat and the elk are reproducing successfully. By your logic, this was unnecessary as bears and elk lived together years ago with no problems right? And it was only man who wiped things out correct? I think this is a prime example of how uncontrolled predators are the main problem.

 

[Ross]

@N.ID7803 maybe when retired and have more free time to chase them….until then will keep providing direction for you as I hear of packs and where someone can target them….my luster has always been with big brown elk antlers and mule deer racks and the savory flavor of backstrap versus stinky vermin….good luck on them

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

There was a wolf trapping feature in Fur, Fish, and Game in the November issue called, "Evolution of a modern day Montana wolf trapper". Here is a link to an online version of the article from Trappermag.com. Its a very good read.

https://www.trappermag.com/article-index/the-evolution-of-a-wolf-trapper

A guy named Dan Helterline has been trapping and evolving his approach to long lining for wolves since 2012. He now offers fully guided wolf hunts and trapline adventures and education. The website from the article is:

https://huntwithcody.com/montana-guided-hunts/wolf-hunting/

For professional trapping instruction, you can also email Dan at: [email protected].

 

[N.ID7803]

@N.ID7803 maybe when retired and have more free time to chase them….until then will keep providing direction for you as I hear of packs and where someone can target them….my luster has always been with big brown elk antlers and mule deer racks and the savory flavor of backstrap versus stinky vermin….good luck on them

Totally understand Im right there with you. And I really appreciate the info you have given me.

 

[KHNC]

What? You mean quality habitat has something to do with increases in ducks, elk, deer, etc.? Is that what you're saying?

No way....sounds like a bunch of liberal mumbo-jumbo hippy stuff to me.

We'd have more ducks if it weren't for wolves.

Sorry you are getting your feelings hurt on this post Buzz. Im sure someone has a crying towel you can borrow.

 

[KHNC]

There was a wolf trapping feature in Fur, Fish, and Game in the November issue called, "Evolution of a modern day Montana wolf trapper". Here is a link to an online version of the article from Trappermag.com. Its a very good read.

https://www.trappermag.com/article-index/the-evolution-of-a-wolf-trapper

A guy named Dan Helterline has been trapping and evolving his approach to long lining for wolves since 2012. He now offers fully guided wolf hunts and trapline adventures and education. The website from the article is:

https://huntwithcody.com/montana-guided-hunts/wolf-hunting/

For professional trapping instruction, you can also email Dan at: [email protected].

Except for everyone should avoid this POS outfitter. Cody is a S--t bag who should have his outfitters license pulled. However, if Dan would do what he is doing without being involved with carr, this would be phenomenal. This area of montana is pretty much only good for predator hunting nowadays, for the reasons mentioned.

 

[Firestone]

@jjohnsonElknewbie you nailed sadly awesome country can be like a morgue and you wonder what is was like decades prior…and if you have been there every year for 42 years you know what has changed it is not bears and lions it is packs and packs and packs of wolves…..they are very smart more than I imagined and when too many, in far removed country not accessible in winter things get out of control….

I live in montana where Ross stomps around and he is spot on. I'm also friends with Helterline and have been able to witness first hand what happens when he takes out a pack. More move in within a couple months, has happened multiple times now. In one instance it was more like three weeks a new bunch moved in. They are here to stay that's for sure. Trapping and being effective at it is tough and takes tons of time. It would be nice if there were 30 Dan's running around but unfortunately not many guys can actually afford it or have the time for it. The Foundation for Wildlife Management has now branched out of Idaho into Montana and is reimbursing wolf harvest with cash. So hopefully that gives guys that have the time a little incentive. To be eligible the wolf has to be harvested legally and you have to be a member. I think it's 40 bucks to become a member.

 

[BuzzH]

@jjohnsonElknewbie you nailed sadly awesome country can be like a morgue and you wonder what is was like decades prior…and if you have been there every year for 42 years you know what has changed it is not bears and lions it is packs and packs and packs of wolves…..they are very smart more than I imagined and when too many, in far removed country not accessible in winter things get out of control….

Yeah, and the Bob has been in decline since the mid-80's. Check the elk classifications.

Again, you can't pound on elk with a rifle in September, with a bunch of outfitters, a bunch of locals. Then as those same elk leave the Bob for the Sun River, Sugarloaf, Boyd, Shanley, Lodgepole Creek, etc. and then pound on them for another 2 months and expect to have a lot of elk around. You can't do that for decades as Montana's population tops 1 million, issues OTC general tags to the tune of 120K, another 17K (more this year) to NR's and expect good results. You can't do that as technology is archery, rifles, clothing, optics, etc. etc. improves. Or as lion harvest drops from 100-110 a year to 10. Or as noted, you have wolves move in.

I would also question someone complaining about all that country and no elk, apparently researching where to hunt, and where not to, isn't their strong suit. I don't believe I'd be complaining about the elk situation, when the data is available that shows 202 observed elk in a classification flight. Which is a fraction of what it was 25-30 years ago. With that data in hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised to only see 2 elk...in particular knowing the other history of the area from living/hunting there since the 1940's.

Again, to blame the woes of Montana elk hunting in NW Montana solely on wolves is purely a function of willful ignorance. Literally worrying about mice while being trampled by elephants.

I'd like to assume that hunters as a group aren't really that ignorant...but then again, with elk success rates what they are...maybe I shouldn't be all that surprised.

 

[BuzzH]

Sorry you are getting your feelings hurt on this post Buzz. Im sure someone has a crying towel you can borrow.

Elk hunting client from NC,

The only time I needed a crying towel this year, was from crying about all the dead elk I had to pack...

 

[Pony Soldier]

I grew up in NW Montana. Hunting was tough in the 70s and 80s. After the wolves it became recreational walk in the woods. There was very little left to see- not even tracks. I avoided the far northwest sections. It was a little too thick for me.

I now live east of Missoula. We had healthy populations of elk. The wolves are moving in and things are changing. The lion populations are high and the hound hunters won't go near the area because of the wolves. Until we get the predators in balance with the prey I'm afraid the future is going to be bleak. I haven't seen a deer in three years. I pray the elk aren't going to go the same way.

When I was in high school there was a bounty on mtn lions of $50. I'm not sure with inflation that $100 might be a place to start for both wolves and cats until we get this mess under control.

 

[BuzzH]

I grew up in NW Montana. Hunting was tough in the 70s and 80s. After the wolves it became recreational walk in the woods. There was very little left to see- not even tracks. I avoided the far northwest sections. It was a little too thick for me.

I now live east of Missoula. We had healthy populations of elk. The wolves are moving in and things are changing. The lion populations are high and the hound hunters won't go near the area because of the wolves. Until we get the predators in balance with the prey I'm afraid the future is going to be bleak. I haven't seen a deer in three years. I pray the elk aren't going to go the same way.

When I was in high school there was a bounty on mtn lions of $50. I'm not sure with inflation that $100 might be a place to start for both wolves and cats until we get this mess under control.

When did you go to highschool? 1950's or 60's? I do remember my Dad talking about lion bounties. I think our neighbors in the Blackfoot, the Copenhaver's, hunted them for bounties in the 1960's.

Lions were classified as a game animal in 1976 and have not had a bounty on them in Montana since then.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I live in montana where Ross stomps around and he is spot on. I'm also friends with Helterline and have been able to witness first hand what happens when he takes out a pack. More move in within a couple months, has happened multiple times now. In one instance it was more like three weeks a new bunch moved in. They are here to stay that's for sure. Trapping and being effective at it is tough and takes tons of time. It would be nice if there were 30 Dan's running around but unfortunately not many guys can actually afford it or have the time for it. The Foundation for Wildlife Management has now branched out of Idaho into Montana and is reimbursing wolf harvest with cash. So hopefully that gives guys that have the time a little incentive. To be eligible the wolf has to be harvested legally and you have to be a member. I think it's 40 bucks to become a member.

Roger that Firestone, and @jordanrw23 lives/hunts/guides on the reservation north of the Bob. His relation is the state trapper there and the state actually has him on the res doing the wolf management. When Jordan talked to him last he said he’s got 3 packs of 15+ that he can’t keep up with. The tribe and the state both have him shoot on site for wolves.

@jordanrw23 also said cats are hard to talk about for management and numbers because they’re so elusive. In his personal experience there are so many lions on the res and in the area he beileves they need more hunting opportunities for them. They guide cat hunts on the res, but they don’t nearly put a dent in the population. A couple years ago they had a hunter on the res shoot 3 in self defense.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Buzzh -- in the 60s in Hot Springs

 

[BuzzH]

Buzzh -- in the 60s in Hot Springs

Kind of what I figured.

Used to fish Dog/Rainbow Lake, the sinkholes, and Lonepine quite a but up there in your neck of the woods back in the day. In fact fished them for the first time in years a couple summers ago while visiting my folks, not as good as they used to be. I remember when there were no pike in Dog Lake...was awesome trout fishing then.

Some fair to middlin' mule deer around there too...pretty sad when the Reservation has better management than the State...but not surprising. I also talked to a tribal warden and was shocked to learn Ferry Basin has OTC general cow tags for tribal members. He said the bull tags weren't even that tough for them to draw? Saw some extra large bull elk come from there in the past, I'm sure its still very good.

 

[KHNC]

Elk hunting client from NC,

The only time I needed a crying towel this year, was from crying about all the dead elk I had to pack...

You can try that route all you want, but i have been hunting the west since 2001. Sorry, better try a new angle.