Elk .243 or 25-06

[Formidilosus]

There are more, but I would need to review video to get times.

 

[Squincher]

I didn’t demand anything- I asked. It’s very simple- Shoot a 2 moa, 3 moa, 5 moa, and 7 moa target twice untimed. Then timed at 20 seconds. All over people talk about how they have to make shots within 5 seconds after seeming an animal, so 20 seconds should be easy.

To be clear- your saying that an off hand shot at a deers chest from 100-150 yards has no relevance? A sitting shot from 200’ish has no relevance? A sitting shot with a rest at 300’ish no relevance? And a 400-500 yard shot prone has no relevance to hunting?



How many hundreds of animals would it take for you? Would you believe it if I gave it?

No, an offhand shot at 100-150 yards has no relevance. At least not for me because I'm not going to take that shot. But you aren't just suggesting an off hand shot or a sitting or prone shot. Your suggesting at least 5 five times as many shots as anyone is going to take in hunting a situation.

And the part I have issue with is you telling us it is applicable to hunting discussions just because you say it is. Show us the data that validates a 20 shot program with a hunting situation.

The part of this I find funny is I suspect you are right that a .243 will kill an elk, and I know for certain a .25-06 will. I think you are either so wrapped up in telling other people what they ought to shoot, or enjoy the ass kissing of internet fanboys so much, that you are willing to engage in naked hypocrisy to keep it going.

 

[Rich M]

No, an offhand shot at 100-150 yards has no relevance. At least not for me because I'm not going to take that shot. But you aren't just suggesting an off hand shot or a sitting or prone shot. Your suggesting at least 5 five times as many shots as anyone is going to take in hunting a situation.

And the part I have issue with is you telling us it is applicable to hunting discussions just because you say it is. Show us the data that validates a 20 shot program with a hunting situation.

The part of this I find funny is I suspect you are right that a .243 will kill an elk, and I know for certain a .25-06 will. I think you are either so wrapped up in telling other people what they ought to shoot, or enjoy the ass kissing of internet fanboys so much, that you are willing to engage in naked hypocrisy to keep it going.

He (F) helps a lot of folks with their shooting and reloading. Guy knows his way around a shooting range.

I'm not sure what you (S) do.

.243 is one of the more common elk cartridges out there - locals use em all the time.

 

[id_jon]

No, an offhand shot at 100-150 yards has no relevance. At least not for me because I'm not going to take that shot. But you aren't just suggesting an off hand shot or a sitting or prone shot. Your suggesting at least 5 five times as many shots as anyone is going to take in hunting a situation.

And the part I have issue with is you telling us it is applicable to hunting discussions just because you say it is. Show us the data that validates a 20 shot program with a hunting situation.

The part of this I find funny is I suspect you are right that a .243 will kill an elk, and I know for certain a .25-06 will. I think you are either so wrapped up in telling other people what they ought to shoot, or enjoy the ass kissing of internet fanboys so much, that you are willing to engage in naked hypocrisy to keep it going.

It's a drill. For training. I honestly do not at all understand objecting to a range drill that will help you to identify weakpoints in your marksmanship so that you can understand your limitations and know where and how to improve your skills.

 

[Formidilosus]

No, an offhand shot at 100-150 yards has no relevance. At least not for me because I'm not going to take that shot. But you aren't just suggesting an off hand shot or a sitting or prone shot. Your suggesting at least 5 five times as many shots as anyone is going to take in hunting a situation.

It’s statistical relevance. One shot on a drill doesn’t tell anyone much of anything useful. The same as a multiple choice test only having one question to answer.

And the part I have issue with is you telling us it is applicable to hunting discussions just because you say it is. Show us the data that validates a 20 shot program with a hunting situation.

I just did.

I think you are either so wrapped up in telling other people what they ought to shoot, or enjoy the ass kissing of internet fanboys so much, that you are willing to engage in naked hypocrisy to keep it going.

Please show me where I have told anyone what to shoot?
Hypocrisy? I apologize, when I first shot the drill, and everyone I know that has shot the drill, has thought it self explanatory for its applicability. I provided a partial list of animals and opportunities that I was apart of this year. The times and positions of the shots are included. The times and positions have lined up very well over the last decade or so of hunting situations. If you have a better practice or test drill for measuring western hunting shots, I would like to shoot it.

 

[sndmn11]

Nobody has seen a situational batting practice before a game???

 

[woods89]

The drill is some of the better content on this site. While one can never say for sure, I suppose, I'm quite sure shooting variations of it helped me a lot this year.

It's a humbler for sure.

 

[Indian Summer]

It’s hard to keep up with this thread. I originally missed the post about the test. So I didn’t know what you were talking about. I’d gladly take it for you if you send me 20 primers and 20 200 grain Accubonds. Never mind the cost that stuff is too hard to find these days to just fling shots at paper. Especially faster than I’d ever attempt to.

But I will agree with Squincher that the test is for the most part irrelevant. It factors in one variable and that’s obviously the amount of time a guy has to shoot.

The way I look at it it’s not about taking shots with little time. You have control over that. You don’t have to shoot. Just like we have to talk about using the same bullet so performance is apples to apples we should also assume everyone can shoot their gun and has the time to do it. It’s more about being prepared for the things beyond our control. It’s about the wind and a twig in the way or an elk that turns at the exact moment your trigger breaks. Things that cause poor placement even if the shooter did his job.

Getting back to the basics of this thread I think that when a hunter is just getting into the elk game and asks about rifle choice what he’s asking is what rifle are most guys using successfully. He’s not looking for extremes. No big cannons and no pea shooters. A gun that will get it done even when all the realities of the moment weigh in and he needs to rely on the widespread damage for 51% of his luck and shot placement for the rest. I think it’s safe to say he isn’t asking what gun is best to get the most accurate shots out of in a certain amount of time.

@Formidilosus I’m sure you and would have fun sharing stories around a campfire. We’re basically cut from the same cloth except all of my data is between my ears. We’d never run out of stories. We could probably one up each other until the sun came up. Lol! But I’m definitely not a numbers guy. Paperwork makes me ill. I like to keep things simple. Neither of our guns are best suited for the OP. Not everyone can effectively shoot mine. But anyone and everyone can shoot a .243 and anyone can shoot something more middle of the road and there’s no reason they shouldn’t.

Why don’t you set up a poll asking guys to pick a gun for public land mountain elk hunting for a first time elk hunter. The kind of hunt where elk can vanish. Options would be of course a 243, a .300 Ultra Mag. Then maybe a spectrum of 3 others in the middle. You pick ‘em. Maybe common ones like 270 & .30-06. One more. How about the 35 Whelen to keep him happy. I’d be interested to see what the results are. You might as well specify a bullet too before that becomes a giant debate and derails the poll.

 

[Esq]

". . . basically Cut from the same cloth. . ." Not even close.

 

[Dobermann]

Nobody has seen a situational batting practice before a game???

Or all manner of shooting drills for improving military, self-defense, or precision rifle competition shooting?

 

[id_jon]

It’s hard to keep up with this thread. I originally missed the post about the test. So I didn’t know what you were talking about. I’d gladly take it for you if you send me 20 primers and 20 200 grain Accubonds. Never mind the cost that stuff is too hard to find these days to just fling shots at paper. Especially faster than I’d ever attempt to.

But I will agree with Squincher that the test is for the most part irrelevant. It factors in one variable and that’s obviously the amount of time a guy has to shoot.

The way I look at it it’s not about taking shots with little time. You have control over that. You don’t have to shoot. Just like we have to talk about using the same bullet so performance is apples to apples we should also assume everyone can shoot their gun and has the time to do it. It’s more about being prepared for the things beyond our control. It’s about the wind and a twig in the way or an elk that turns at the exact moment your trigger breaks. Things that cause poor placement even if the shooter did his job.

Getting back to the basics of this thread I think that when a hunter is just getting into the elk game and asks about rifle choice what he’s asking is what rifle are most guys using successfully. He’s not looking for extremes. No big cannons and no pea shooters. A gun that will get it done even when all the realities of the moment weigh in and he needs to rely on the widespread damage for 51% of his luck and shot placement for the rest. I think it’s safe to say he isn’t asking what gun is best to get the most accurate shots out of in a certain amount of time.

@Formidilosus I’m sure you and would have fun sharing stories around a campfire. We’re basically cut from the same cloth except all of my data is between my ears. We’d never run out of stories. We could probably one up each other until the sun came up. Lol! But I’m definitely not a numbers guy. Paperwork makes me ill. I like to keep things simple. Neither of our guns are best suited for the OP. Not everyone can effectively shoot mine. But anyone and everyone can shoot a .243 and anyone can shoot something more middle of the road and there’s no reason they shouldn’t.

Why don’t you set up a poll asking guys to pick a gun for public land mountain elk hunting for a first time elk hunter. The kind of hunt where elk can vanish. Options would be of course a 243, a .300 Ultra Mag. Then maybe a spectrum of 3 others in the middle. You pick ‘em. Maybe common ones like 270 & .30-06. One more. How about the 35 Whelen to keep him happy. I’d be interested to see what the results are. You might as well specify a bullet too before that becomes a giant debate and derails the poll.

That thread's been done. No one is under the impression that the majority of people wouldn't pick a larger cartridge, but that has no bearing on whether or not a 243 or a 25-06 can kill an elk effectively.

Ideal Elk Cartridge?

Preffered Elk Cartidge. Tried to pick the most popular calibers/cartridges in N.A.

www.rokslide.com

 

[Indian Summer]

That thread's been done. No one is under the impression that the majority of people wouldn't pick a larger cartridge, but that has no bearing on whether or not a 243 or a 25-06 can kill an elk effectively.

Ideal Elk Cartridge?

Preffered Elk Cartidge. Tried to pick the most popular calibers/cartridges in N.A.

www.rokslide.com

It answers the OPs question. Isn’t that the point? The question wasn’t can this little gun kill elk. Of course. Is it ideal? Nope

 

[Indian Summer]

". . . basically Cut from the same cloth. . ." Not even close.

I’ve spent my entire adult life hunting elk. Guiding others for elk. Outfitting and sending guides out with all kinds of hunters and paying attention to the results. I just don’t have a stack of paperwork documenting it all. That’s awesome for sure but not many guys do that. We just log it away in our minds. What about you Esq? Anything in common with us?

 

[Indian Summer]

That thread's been done. No one is under the impression that the majority of people wouldn't pick a larger cartridge, but that has no bearing on whether or not a 243 or a 25-06 can kill an elk effectively.

Ideal Elk Cartridge?

Preffered Elk Cartidge. Tried to pick the most popular calibers/cartridges in N.A.

www.rokslide.com

Yep thanks! Results are what you’d expect. But…. the .300 win mag is the winner but I still don’t think it’s the best choice for new elk hunters unless they have already been shooting guns like that and are comfortable with it.

 

[KurtR]

I just don’t understand why people don’t practice situationally with there rifles. Hell most don’t even take the time to fry fire. We talk all this stuff about ethics and fast kills wouldn’t it ethically make sense to practice in field situations.

 

[yycyak]

Wait what?

"Fling shots at paper"? Is that what practice is called these days? Or are you saying that firing 20 rounds is simply an unreasonable expectation of anyone? What does a range session look like for you?

I'm concerned that you are taking the Fudd joke (buying a box of 20 rounds, and taking 28 years to empty said box) a little too seriously.

And please don't feel like I'm personally attacking you or anything like that - That's certainly not my intent. We are just two guys chatting etc. But you've got to see the irony in someone suggesting that they have it all figured out, when at the same time hesitant to shoot 20 rounds...

[...] I’d gladly take it for you if you send me 20 primers and 20 200 grain Accubonds. Never mind the cost that stuff is too hard to find these days to just fling shots at paper. Especially faster than I’d ever attempt to [...]

But I will agree with Squincher that the test is for the most part irrelevant. It factors in one variable and that’s obviously the amount of time a guy has to shoot. [...]

 

[sndmn11]

I just don’t understand why people don’t practice situationally with there rifles. Hell most don’t even take the time to fry fire. We talk all this stuff about ethics and fast kills wouldn’t it ethically make sense to practice in field situations.

AND learn what you bullet is/isn't designed for.

 

[35WhelenAI]

The way I look at it it’s not about taking shots with little time. You have control over that. You don’t have to shoot. Just like we have to talk about using the same bullet so performance is apples to apples we should also assume everyone can shoot their gun and has the time to do it. It’s more about being prepared for the things beyond our control. It’s about the wind and a twig in the way or an elk that turns at the exact moment your trigger breaks. Things that cause poor placement even if the shooter did his job.

Getting back to the basics of this thread I think that when a hunter is just getting into the elk game and asks about rifle choice what he’s asking is what rifle are most guys using successfully. He’s not looking for extremes. No big cannons and no pea shooters. A gun that will get it done even when all the realities of the moment weigh in and he needs to rely on the widespread damage for 51% of his luck and shot placement for the rest. I think it’s safe to say he isn’t asking what gun is best to get the most accurate shots out of in a certain amount of time.

Why don’t you set up a poll asking guys to pick a gun for public land mountain elk hunting for a first time elk hunter. The kind of hunt where elk can vanish. Options would be of course a 243, a .300 Ultra Mag. Then maybe a spectrum of 3 others in the middle. You pick ‘em. Maybe common ones like 270 & .30-06. One more. How about the 35 Whelen to keep him happy. I’d be interested to see what the results are. You might as well specify a bullet too before that becomes a giant debate and derails the poll.

In the grand scheme, it's a concept being discussed. What is said above says that well.

The title of the thread that you suggested is a good one. It puts a face to the hunter and the situation. 35 Whelen/AI need not apply in the scope of that poll. While being a good tool for the job, it's a fringe cartridge, and IMO, it's not reality the poll would be better with that included.

How about a second poll that allows bullet choice as well. Cup and core bullet, (whether long range or otherwise), bonded core, or mono.

Combine results of the chambering, with the bullet style that was chosen. Make that the poster child for the official rokslide first time western elk hunter recommendation.

 

[Indian Summer]

Wait what?

"Fling shots at paper"? Is that what practice is called these days? Or are you saying that firing 20 rounds is simply an unreasonable expectation of anyone? What does a range session look like for you?

I'm concerned that you are taking the Fudd joke (buying a box of 20 rounds, and taking 28 years to empty said box) a little too seriously.

And please don't feel like I'm personally attacking you or anything like that - That's certainly not my intent. We are just two guys chatting etc. But you've got to see the irony in someone suggesting that they have it all figured out, when at the same time hesitant to shoot 20 rounds...

I hear you. But at my stage of the game I can assure you that I need absolutely no practice brother. None. The past couple years, and come spring this year, I’ll go down to a 1000 yard range and shoot. I’ll shoot 20 or 40 rounds or whatever it takes to achieve my goal. The goal is further. I’ll shoot every hundred yards starting with 400. I’m not learning how to squeeze the trigger though. I’m just fine tuning my MOAs at those ranges.

For a hunter to just rapid fire 20 rounds is flinging them. I’m a spot and stalk hunter. I still hunt a little but only to get some blood circulation going on the colder days. I have my hunting area dialed in. The bulls are there. I could sit in one single spot and just wait until it’s time to shoot. I am NOT jump shooting elk even when I still hunt. That’s because I’m not out searching. I’m not trying to cover ground. I’m moving as slow as the shadows with 10-20 minute sits in between movements. Instead of having 5 seconds to shoot I might have 5 minutes. Or hours! Last year I watched the bull I shot for three days before he made the wrong move. I videoed him fighting with other bulls with a couple others hanging around. On the third morning they weren’t where they had been which was just out of reach. But day 3 he was where I needed him to be and he was on the ground by 8am after one shot.

That’s the style of hunting that has brought me consistent success. I choose the area I hunt (semi open) that suits my style of hunting. If I have 5 seconds to shoot there’s a good chance I can do it. I certainly have. I’ve been a good shot even under pressure since before I was a teenager. But if there’s not enough time to make an ethical shot I just say oh well tomorrow is another day. I get enough opportunities to pass on a shaky one. I had a 5 point bull at 270 yards last year for 4 hours. Too early in the hunt for bulls under 6 points. But spending lots of time close to elk helps a guy stay calm when the time comes. Spending 35-40 years around elk has that effect too. I’m as calm and calculated as can be at trigger time. So for me zipping off 20 shots as fast as I can serves no purpose. Also if I do that in my gun the barrel will be smoking hot and not as accurate as my shots when hunting or during my normal shooting routine where I let it cool down periodically.

Everyone has their own style. New hunters in unfamiliar areas have to explore it. You can’t sit until you know the sweet spots to put it in park. Knowing the area really well is what gives you the patience to stay put in those spots too. Getting to know the area means still hunting a lot and with no knowledge of local elk habits it means not knowing when it’s time to slow down or stop. Inevitably that means jumping elk and therefore some quick shooting maybe even offhand.

Some seasoned hunters prefer to still hunt in timber. That’s fine too and the exercise is something that without a doubt has relevance and is a good test for them. To a new hunter I would say to try to make an effort to avoid getting themselves in that pressured shot situation by thinking about what I just said and employ a style of hunting that results in having the time to take more controlled shots. Shots where you have the time to hold off on that final trigger squeeze until you are truly ready. It’s a good way to prepare to still be able to kill elk past 70 years old too because it’s hunting smarter instead of harder. The other advantage is that by not hiking around setting myself up for marginal shot opportunities I don’t put any human scent in my area. There’s no reason for the elk to be gone the next day after feeding through human stink at night. When you’re a sniper the elk don’t know you’re there until one falls over dead. I didn’t improve my shooting and adapt my hunting style over night. I did what everyone else does for the first 20 plus years before I committed to one area and hunting it the way I do. Flinging 20 bullets isn’t going to change or improve anything or enlighten me in any way. It might teach a guy to slow the hell down.

Yycyak don’t worry man I don’t feel attacked. It’s the internet. Plus you can’t have anything but respect for a person for sticking to their beliefs. If you or Form believe that shooting 20 rounds asap improves your shooting or teaches you something then have at it. But to think that it applies to everyone isn’t true. I could likely kill 20 elk with those 20 bullets you want me to waste. You asked what a range session looks like to me. I try to be respectful and answer legitimate questions on forums. My sessions are geared toward making every shot count. Regardless of how long it takes me to make a shot at that range my goal is to be able to say that’s a dead elk after every shot. Then…. If I am 100% satisfied at a certain distance I’ll factor in reality. For example if I determine that I have the perfect MOA for 800 yards I walk away thinking ok I’m good to 600 yards to aim a gun at a live animal under field conditions.

An exercise for hunters like me would be to see if you can sit in one spot for several days and then make a single shot perfect. Will you try my exercise? Get up at 4:00 and go sit at your range from dark to dark. Do that for three days and then midway through day 3 take one shot at the max range for your cartridge. It tests your ability to remain in the right spot until the time is right. Much more difficult for some than to shoot quickly. I think being in the right place at the right time is equally if not more important.

 

[roosiebull]

I hear you. But at my stage of the game I can assure you that I need absolutely no practice brother. None. The past couple years, and come spring this year, I’ll go down to a 1000 yard range and shoot. I’ll shoot 20 or 40 rounds or whatever it takes to achieve my goal. The goal is further. I’ll shoot every hundred yards starting with 400. I’m not learning how to squeeze the trigger though. I’m just fine tuning my MOAs at those ranges.

For a hunter to just rapid fire 20 rounds is flinging them. I’m a spot and stalk hunter. I still hunt a little but only to get some blood circulation going on the colder days. I have my hunting area dialed in. The bulls are there. I could sit in one single spot and just wait until it’s time to shoot. I am NOT jump shooting elk even when I still hunt. That’s because I’m not out searching. I’m not trying to cover ground. I’m moving as slow as the shadows with 10-20 minute sits in between movements. Instead of having 5 seconds to shoot I might have 5 minutes. Or hours! Last year I watched the bull I shot for three days before he made the wrong move. I videoed him fighting with other bulls with a couple others hanging around. On the third morning they weren’t where they had been which was just out of reach. But day 3 he was where I needed him to be and he was on the ground by 8am after one shot.

That’s the style of hunting that has brought me consistent success. I choose the area I hunt (semi open) that suits my style of hunting. If I have 5 seconds to shoot there’s a good chance I can do it. I certainly have. I’ve been a good shot even under pressure since before I was a teenager. But if there’s not enough time to make an ethical shot I just say oh well tomorrow is another day. I get enough opportunities to pass on a shaky one. I had a 5 point bull at 270 yards last year for 4 hours. Too early in the hunt for bulls under 6 points. But spending lots of time close to elk helps a guy stay calm when the time comes. Spending 35-40 years around elk has that effect too. I’m as calm and calculated as can be at trigger time. So for me zipping off 20 shots as fast as I can serves no purpose. Also if I do that in my gun the barrel will be smoking hot and not as accurate as my shots when hunting or during my normal shooting routine where I let it cool down periodically.

Everyone has their own style. New hunters in unfamiliar areas have to explore it. You can’t sit until you know the sweet spots to put it in park. Knowing the area really well is what gives you the patience to stay put in those spots too. Getting to know the area means still hunting a lot and with no knowledge of local elk habits it means not knowing when it’s time to slow down or stop. Inevitably that means jumping elk and therefore some quick shooting maybe even offhand.

Some seasoned hunters prefer to still hunt in timber. That’s fine too and the exercise is something that without a doubt has relevance and is a good test for them. To a new hunter I would say to try to make an effort to avoid getting themselves in that pressured shot situation by thinking about what I just said and employ a style of hunting that results in having the time to take more controlled shots. Shots where you have the time to hold off on that final trigger squeeze until you are truly ready. It’s a good way to prepare to still be able to kill elk past 70 years old too because it’s hunting smarter instead of harder. The other advantage is that by not hiking around setting myself up for marginal shot opportunities I don’t put any human scent in my area. There’s no reason for the elk to be gone the next day after feeding through human stink at night. When you’re a sniper the elk don’t know you’re there until one falls over dead. I didn’t improve my shooting and adapt my hunting style over night. I did what everyone else does for the first 20 plus years before I committed to one area and hunting it the way I do. Flinging 20 bullets isn’t going to change or improve anything or enlighten me in any way. It might teach a guy to slow the hell down.

Yycyak don’t worry man I don’t feel attacked. It’s the internet. Plus you can’t have anything but respect for a person for sticking to their beliefs. If you or Form believe that shooting 20 rounds asap improves your shooting or teaches you something then have at it. But to think that it applies to everyone isn’t true. I could likely kill 20 elk with those 20 bullets you want me to waste. You asked what a range session looks like to me. I try to be respectful and answer legitimate questions on forums. My sessions are geared toward making every shot count. Regardless of how long it takes me to make a shot at that range my goal is to be able to say that’s a dead elk after every shot. Then…. If I am 100% satisfied at a certain distance I’ll factor in reality. For example if I determine that I have the perfect MOA for 800 yards I walk away thinking ok I’m good to 600 yards to aim a gun at a live animal under field conditions.

An exercise for hunters like me would be to see if you can sit in one spot for several days and then make a single shot perfect. Will you try my exercise? Get up at 4:00 and go sit at your range from dark to dark. Do that for three days and then midway through day 3 take one shot at the max range for your cartridge. It tests your ability to remain in the right spot until the time is right. Much more difficult for some than to shoot quickly. I think being in the right place at the right time is equally if not more important.

do you pack a shooting bench into the back country?