Elk .243 or 25-06

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

42, shooting the rifle i got built for a decade or so on the third tube I could afford a better scope but have gotten away from shooting comps so it will suffice. I still sit in my house and dry fire and practice bolt manipulation as it is a stress reliever.

My shooting has dropped of alot in the last year like to around a 1000 rounds or so now that i have gotten a new lab and got into running tests and trails. Didnt even shoot a deer last year as every bit of free time was either training or waterfowl hunting which has been my favorite for ever any way. I shoot my shotgun better than a rifle .

Benefit of living in the middle of nowhere i am 5 minutes from doing what ever be it shooting hunting or dog training.

Amen brother... My nearest neighbor is 3/4 mile away and we're 4 miles from town. I got 9 acres of native grasses on 13 acres with a pistol and rifle range I built out back. Walk out the door and shoot guns, take a pi$$, hunt birds, you name it. Gotta love living in the country.

 

[Indian Summer]

36 thousand! Did I say that?

 

[Indian Summer]

I shoot but it doesn’t take a thousand or even a hundred a year to get back on a bicycle and ride again. I shoot other guns just not the big one as much.

As far as wind… if it’s too much I just don’t shoot. At this point the furthest I’d shoot at an elk is 600 yards. When I build the new gun I’ll also invest in a wind meter and a few other things but even then the wind where you sit and the wind on the other side of a canyon are usually two different things.

I’m not desperate. Don’t need to kill the first bull I see. If things are right I’ll shoot. If not I enjoy another day in the mountains. I’ve only lost one elk in my life. It was my first bow kill. 20 yard shot. He died within 200 yards but we didn’t find him until the next day at 7am. Too late. It was really hot out. We packed him out but by the time we reached the truck bone sour had set in. I’ve never lost an elk I shot with a rifle and only once did I have to trail an elk before finding it. I’ve never missed one. I must be doing something right.

 

[Formidilosus]

36 thousand! Did I say that?

I fat fingered a zero. You knew what I asked however, what are the rifle particulars?

 

[Indian Summer]

Gimme a minute and I’ll dig up the sheet with the numbers. You would get along with all the 1000 yard guys where I shoot. They shoot all day every day. All old retired dudes down in West Virginia. They all shoot 6.5 CMs. They are NEVER done tweaking stuff. They are endlessly striving for perfection. I’m a hunter. I know enough to be as good as I can possibly be with my gun in my hunting area. As long as every single one of my holes is within 3 inches of the X, meaning a 6 inch group, it’s a dead elk. Good enough. When I’m hunting my gun is cold so I spend an entire day down there usually until dark because we take turns shooting and letting barrels cool down. They never get cold but if you don’t pause they do get sizzling hot.

I’ve had a chronograph for years. I only use it when developing a load. I write the numbers down and hand them to the good old bench shooter guys and they average them out and plug in an elevation for where I hunt into their ballistics program and hand me a sheet with my minutes of angle out to 1000 yards.

The first time I called to see about shooting there the president of the club answered. I told him my goal. He asked what I was shooting and about the scope. At the time I had a Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm. I asked him how much ammunition to bring. In my mind it would take a couple boxes to get things figured out. He said “I’ll have you hitting steel at a thousand yards in 5 shots” I was skeptical but excited. My speed was 3600 and a little change. When I got there he had 3 sheets with a couple slightly different velocities. We used the one for the velocity I gave him. I shot at 100 yards first. 3 shots. Everything was good.

I shot every 50 yards out to 800 that day. I couldn’t get the smile off of my face. His numbers were dead on until I got to 450 and then it only took a click or two to be on the mark again. I haven’t changed that load since. I have shot more powder and less but my groups weren’t as tight. I’ve been on a lucky streak for awhile now. I ate tag soup here and there in the 80s and 90s. But last year was number 23 straight. Everything I’ve pulled the trigger on fell over dead. Like I said I had to track one for a short way. If my order ever goes through I’ll be switching to a Leupold Mark 5HD in 7-35x56mm. At 56 years old I feel like my old eyes would like it when I get out past 700 yards. I’ve never shot beyond 800 with the 20 power. 800 with the 35 power is going to be really nice.

Like I said I’m always trying to inch my odds in the right direction and where I hunt the further you can shoot the better off you are. If I could shoot bulls at 1000 yards my odds would be 100% on bigger bulls. My goal is to not just kill a bull it’s also to go help my partners. They are friends from Pa with little experience and this year looking for their first antlered elk. The sooner I’m done the better their odds. After guiding dozens of hunters a year and not hunting enough myself years ago I’m loving life now. Guiding is in your blood so I get to hunt and guide a little. Friends too so it’s just really fun and rewarding.

I was surprised you doubt my bullet speed. I didn’t think it was anything special. It is what it is to me. Judging by your opinion apparently it’s fast. Lol I know the .300 RUM has something like a 17% larger case capacity than a .300 Weatherby Mag and if I remember right 24 or 27% more than a .300 Win Mag. It’s the largest case Remington can fit in their model 700 action. So yeah it’s gonna be quick. That sheet with my velocities and MOAs and all that jazz is somewhere. I’ll post it when I get my hands on it. It’s Friday bud go have a bourbon or a beer.

 

[Formidilosus]

Snip

Barrel length?

 

[Rich M]

I guess what your definition mastered is makes a difference. Had alot of guys tell me they are good to go till the shit is running down there leg and bullets are flying every where but the intended aiming point. Jerking triggers short stroking bolts and not following through being the worst culprits

Im limited to a 250 yard range. My 3006 and 350 Legend keep it inside an inch at that range. My 243 is 1 to 1.25 inch. Thats as good as ive got. I do things like follow up shots instinctively but im old, been deer hunting since 78 and small game since about 75.

I like the 243 better than 06 and Legend better than 243. Im deaf and surprisingly have sensitive ears. Muzzleblast is the debbil.

When i travel west, typically do 6 or more range trips w 20-50 shots per gun per trip. I want to have fresh trigger memory and know where my primary and backup rifles will hit out to 250 anyway. Plus its fun.

Hunting around home i dont practice as much.

 

[sndmn11]

I was surprised you doubt my bullet speed. I didn’t think it was anything special. It is what it is to me. Judging by your opinion apparently it’s fast. Lol I know the .300 RUM has something like a 17% larger case capacity than a .300 Weatherby Mag and if I remember right 24 or 27% more than a .300 Win Mag. It’s the largest case Remington can fit in their model 700 action. So yeah it’s gonna be quick. That sheet with my velocities and MOAs and all that jazz is somewhere. I’ll post it when I get my hands on it. It’s Friday bud go have a bourbon or a beer.

I'm in Colorado too and would be happy to meet up to shoot.

 

[Stu]

I’ve had a chronograph for years. I only use it when developing a load. I write the numbers down and hand them to the good old bench shooter guys and they average them out and plug in an elevation for where I hunt into their ballistics program and hand me a sheet with my minutes of angle out to 1000 yards.

What ranges/distance do you limit your shots to on live game? Do you use a rangefinder and ballistics calculator?

 

[Indian Summer]

What ranges/distance do you limit your shots to on live game? Do you use a rangefinder and ballistics calculator?

I’ve already said several times that I have limited my shots at live game to 200 yards less than I shoot at the range. That means 600 yards. To date I’ve never had to shoot that far. My furthest shot has been 405. I’ve had bulls beyond 600 and out to 900-1100 but either just sat tight and watched them or moved in for a better shot. I’ve also used the same rifle at my lowest magnification which was 6.5 power and killed bulls at 60, 70, and 80 yards.

Omg who would go elk hunting without a good quality rangefinder! Especially someone new to the mountains. It’s as important as your scope. We’ve all looked across a drainage and thought that looks like 700 yards then ranged it and got a big surprise. It was only 500 or it was like 1200! And you say man this country can be deceiving a rangefinder is a must!

My rangefinder has a ballistics calculator which and also a processor that factors in humidity etc.

Lots of people don’t care for long range shooting. But it’s no different than archery hunting where accurate range is everything and more important the further the target.

 

[Indian Summer]

Barrel length?

26 inches. The gun is a Remington model 700AWR out of the Remington custom shop. Teflon coated stainless steel. The barrel has an odd number of grooves and lands so that there’s always a land opposite a groove. I’ve been pretty lucky with guns. My brother has a Browning A Bolt and that thing sends a flyer every 2 out of 5 shots. Yuk! My Remington model 700L is a 7mm Rem Mag and it’s a tack driver. Ok Form go ahead and run all your numbers again now that you have the barrel length so you can tell me I’m full of shit. If my speed isn’t what I said then the chrony is lying not me. If I bullshitted my friends down at the range the MOAs they gave me wouldn’t work. But they do and surprisingly well.

What’s your point? That if I can’t kick that 200 grainer in the ass like that your peashooter does just as much damage?

My long range hunting mentors are Rich (rip) Kenzakoski and his brother Ed Kenzakoski from Wilkes Barre Pa. Ed had the 1 mile record for awhile. It was beat by…. Ed Kenzakoski! Not sure who holds the title now. Those guys hunt elk with heavy barreled customs. They build everything themselves including reaming their own barrels. But the actions started out the same as mine. Remington model 700 long action chambered in .300 RUM. I have no idea what their muzzle velocity is but they kill elk out to 1200 yards. My goal is child’s play compared to them. That gives me confidence. If I told them I was going to hunt elk with a .243 they probably wouldn’t even comment. One year two women we knew drew Montana mountain goat tags. Both killed billies at 900 yards. They set up the gun and said ok hon just peek through the scope and squeeze one off. Boom done. A bullet that weighs enough to retain it’s energy that far might as well be a cannon ball at 6 or 800 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

What’s your point? That if I can’t kick that 200 grainer in the ass like that your peashooter does just as much damage?

The “point” is that a 300 RUM shooting 200gr bullets at 3,600fps with a 26” barrel is not happening. 3,600fps form a 200gr bullet out of that case would put you between 80,000 and 100,000 PSI- the bolt would be in your face.

 

[Indian Summer]

The “point” is that a 300 RUM shooting 200gr bullets at 3,600fps with a 26” barrel is not happening. 3,600fps form a 200gr bullet out of that case would put you between 80,000 and 100,000 PSI- the bolt would be in your face.

That’s scary! I must be wrong then since my face still looks good. I don’t doubt you know everything there is to know about guns. I sure don’t. I’m just good at using them. There’s always the possibility my memory isn’t what it once was AND that you are right. About this anyway. But not about the fact that a .243 is a bare minimum with little margin for error and not a sound recommendation for a new hunter asking what gun he should start his elk hunting career with. Even with magic bullets. ;-)

 

[260madman]

The “point” is that a 300 RUM shooting 200gr bullets at 3,600fps with a 26” barrel is not happening. 3,600fps form a 200gr bullet out of that case would put you between 80,000 and 100,000 PSI- the bolt would be in your face.

I told him he was lying about it a few pages back. The following day I texted my friend that runs a ballistics lab for a large ammo and components manufacturer about his claim And said even with a 30” barrel he comes up short LOL. His response was yeah, he’s way off, Either his chrono wasnt set up correctly or he’s lying.

 

[Indian Summer]

The “point” is that a 300 RUM shooting 200gr bullets at 3,600fps with a 26” barrel is not happening. 3,600fps form a 200gr bullet out of that case would put you between 80,000 and 100,000 PSI- the bolt would be in your face.

That’s scary! But that’s the number and so far so good. I’m about to take the rifle to my gunsmith for a couple things so I’m going to see what he says. Meanwhile I gotta find that data sheet. Who knows it’s been awhile. There’s always the possibility my memory isn’t what it once was AND that you are right. About this anyway. But not about the fact that a .243 is a bare minimum with little margin for error and not a sound recommendation for a new hunter asking what gun he should start his elk hunting career with. Even with magic bullets. ;-)

I told him he was lying about it a few pages back. The following day I texted my friend that runs a ballistics lab for a large ammo and components manufacturer about his claim And said even with a 30” barrel he comes up short LOL. His response was yeah, he’s way off, Either his chrono wasnt set up correctly or he’s lying.

Lying? Not possible if it’s wrong it could be an honest mistake? I’ll repeat something I said before: Thieves keep their doors locked and liars don’t believe anyone. No need to make it personal man. Is it? I don’t know about your gun but your personality isn’t the greatest. Or maybe you’re not such a bad guy but hopefully your shooting skills are better than your communication and people skills.

 

[HaydenLane]

I have a recurring nightmare where I shoot at a cow in a big herd of elk and they all gather together. I can't tell which one I shot at, so I have to sit and watch as they walk or run out of site. Did I hit it? Did I wound it? How am I ever going to figure out which elk I shot if I did wound it and am able to catch up to them? If there is snow, that will help but a weak blood trail can be hard to follow, especially in a big herd. If she's hit hard, will she slip away from the herd and go lay down and die? Will I be able to find her if she does?

I hope there’s a reply in here about spotting your own impact. Just in case, I’ll say it. How will you ever know with a heavy recoiling rifle when you can’t spot your impact?

 

[sndmn11]

I hope there’s a reply in here about spotting your own impact. Just in case, I’ll say it. How will you ever know with a heavy recoiling rifle when you can’t spot your impact?

Because the hand of powdermag god himself jolts smashes that animal straight to the ground DRT when you hunt with the big gun. No need to spot anything.

 

[Marble]

Why would you only shoot 20 times in five years. If a archery hunter said that every one would loose their shit. Why do rifle hunters hold them selves to such a low standard

I forgot to add the 2-3 days of squirl shooting, 200-400 yards generally. 400-600 rounds daily.

Plus at work I have to shoot 100 Pistol and 20 rounds from my M4 monthly.

Plus coyote/squirl/rabbit or whatever on a weekly bassi at the ranch.

It's just expensive and wearing on my gun to shoot it that much. The gun is loaded really hot and so I shoot it not too much to make it last. Ive probably 500 rounds through a factory rifle and I just want it to last. Probably me being too careful. But I've had a few other rifle that got shot out and I just would rather not reinvent the wheel. I'm 45 and would like it to last another 25 years.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I hope there’s a reply in here about spotting your own impact. Just in case, I’ll say it. How will you ever know with a heavy recoiling rifle when you can’t spot your impact?

Because the hand of powdermag god himself jolts smashes that animal straight to the ground DRT when you hunt with the big gun. No need to spot anything.

After shooting whitetails with 12 gauge slugs and muzzleloaders for 20+ years, both of which can recoil as much as a .30-06, I think this "spotting your impact" business is being blown way out of proportion. I'll be first to admit that I probably blink (flinch to some) every time I shoot slugs, muzzleloaders, .308, etc... I will also say that it hasn't affected my kill ratio during this time. The miniscule fraction of a second that I spend with my eye closed while looking through a scope or open sights hasn't prevented me from witnessing a whitetail's reaction to being hit. It also didn't affect my ability to see where I struck my bull last Sep.

Now if a guy is full on pulling his head after a shot to "see" the hit (on paper or an animal) and then remounting his cheek and reacquiring in the scope I can see the validity of this argument. However, that is a whole different can of worms.

 

[roosiebull]

@Formidilosus

From the Sierra website...

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

If the TMK was such a lethal big game round and so widely praised for nuking "thousands" of antelope, moose, elk, etc..., why doesn't Sierra explicitly market this bullet as such? Seems to me the manufacturer should have some expertise, albeit maybe not as much as you, and that they are missing out on significant market share to us lemmings that believe in tried and true cartridges explicityly designed for big game.

how much do you think sierra has tested their TMK's on game? like any other industry almost, they build to a spec for a purpose and market it in that arena, they are still a matchking, but that tip (accidentally on their part) made them a reliable expanding bullet on game and turned them into an effective projectile.... ELD-M aren't a hunting bullet either, yet they are the bullet of choice for many, because they work better than "hunting" bullets for what they do.

would you trust the company who builds a match bullet and leaves it at that, or someone who has killed a bunch of critters with them and watched a bunch more killed with them? i guess the answer lies in your agenda, because if it fit yours, of course you would believe experience over assumption from a company... they built a match bullet, why would they test it on game? they literally (from my understanding) added a plastic tip to a matchking, they didn't know that would result in consistent results on game, and they aren't going to invest in testing, because they already make hunting bullets.

if you want to take marketing and treat it as gospel, while ignoring experience, well..... you are what capitalism relies on to thrive, which is ironic in this context.

entertaining thread though.... especially the last few pages that became even more ironic. if you shoot a big enough cartridge for elk, you only have to shoot it a couple times per year, which is better than someone who shoots a smaller cartridge and shoots it a bunch.

i also shoot my bow every day with very few exceptions (usually 2-3 times per day) and i shoot the bow i'm hunting with exactly as it is when i hunt with it (quiver on, 4 arrows in the quiver+the one on the string)

i don't care what weapon i'm hunting with, but i want to be well practiced with that particular weapon, a few thousand rounds from my 17 shooting rats doesn't cut it for me... it's fun, and good practice, but it doesn't take the place of shooting the rifle i'm hunting with.... certainly tougher recently with ammo and reloading supplies hard to get, but i have been able to find some primers/powder/bullets by shopping a little every morning and evening.... doesn't make it easy, but also not a valid excuse to not practice