Elk .243 or 25-06

[MTWop]

 

[Indian Summer]

View attachment 375431

@MTWop … quit that you’re upsetting the peashooters. Lol

 

[ARK_Ginger]

This is a valid point that different bullets require different minimal velocities to work properly. However, it’s also true that the kinetic energy has relevance. I wouldn’t consider this information a “fallacy” as it directly applies to ballistics and is a well acccepted term when discussing them. The kinetic energy formula defines the relationship between the mass of an object and its velocity. The kinetic energy equation is as follows: KE = 0.5 * m * v², where: m - mass, v - velocity.

This is a too simplistic understanding of kinetic energy to apply to terminal ballistics. The bullet does use its kinetic energy to do work (

) on the body (animal) but not all bullets will impart the same amount of work to the body. This is largely or solely due to design. Some (monos cough cough) will impart less kinetic energy to the body due to passing through the body, which is wasted energy for our purposes.

The only reason kinetic energy is an accepted term when discussing terminal ballistics is because of the prevailing poor education on the subject and the dogma that keeps people uneducated as shown in this very thread.

 

[sndmn11]

This is a valid point that different bullets require different minimal velocities to work properly. However, it’s also true that the kinetic energy has relevance. I wouldn’t consider this information a “fallacy” as it directly applies to ballistics and is a well acccepted term when discussing them. The kinetic energy formula defines the relationship between the mass of an object and its velocity. The kinetic energy equation is as follows: KE = 0.5 * m * v², where: m - mass, v - velocity.

Can you enlighten the masses how my example of a 208LRX vs a 208amax out of a 300BO will see the same terminal performance?
Same caliber
Same cartridge
Same velocity
Same mass
Same kinetic energy
Same-sies all around except bullet construction, same terminal performance?

 

[Indian Summer]

This guy has killed a few! Worth reading.

Is there a perfect elk rifle?

I've been asked many questions about hunting over the years, given my full-time career as a hunting journalist, especially with Outdoor Life magazine. Of all those questions, the one most asked is my opinion on elk rifles. Most of those were from folks who didn't live in elk country and were...

www.jimzumbo.com

 

[Indian Summer]

I’m nobody. Don’t listen to me. Here’s another good read from a credible source. Recent article too. New elk hunters take note…..

The Best Elk Hunting Calibers of 2024

In this review, hunting and shooting expert Ron Spomer gives his insight and experience on the best calibers for elk hunting.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[KurtR]

This guy has killed a few! Worth reading.

Is there a perfect elk rifle?

I've been asked many questions about hunting over the years, given my full-time career as a hunting journalist, especially with Outdoor Life magazine. Of all those questions, the one most asked is my opinion on elk rifles. Most of those were from folks who didn't live in elk country and were...

www.jimzumbo.com

He said 40 elk in 50 years that one years worth of killing and bullet performance that @Formidilosus has.

 

[MTWop]

I think I would rather argue about religion or covid vaccinations at this point. Can we all recognize that there are valid arguments on both sides? The reality is that the answer lies somewhere in the middle (like most things). There are compromises on both sides. Anybody that thinks they’re 100% correct (me included) is ignorant. Form, I’m genuinely curious how you’re involved in 50 elk kills/year. Here in Montana, we have one of the longest elk seasons in the country. I have several friends that have guided their entire lives that don’t reach the numbers you’re mentioning. This is an anonymous forum. Again, not trying to argue it isn’t true, I’m genuinely curious

 

[Indian Summer]

Petersens Hunting…. that way you can’t twist my words. Plus it saves me typing too. This is a really good article.

Is the .243 Winchester a Viable Elk Cartridge? - Petersen's Hunting

Ourexperts the author contacted disagreed on whether or not the .243 is a reliable

www.petersenshunting.com

 

[roosiebull]

Go out and shoot a lifetime of animals and get back to me. It would honestly require several hundreds of kills with each to realize the difference.

i think you're barking up the wrong tree....

 

[ARK_Ginger]

I think I would rather argue about religion or covid vaccinations at this point. Can we all recognize that there are valid arguments on both sides? The reality is that the answer lies somewhere in the middle (like most things). There are compromises on both sides. Anybody that thinks they’re 100% correct (me included) is ignorant. Form, I’m genuinely curious how you’re involved in 50 elk kills/year. Here in Montana, we have one of the longest elk seasons in the country. I have several friends that have guided their entire lives that don’t reach the numbers you’re mentioning. This is an anonymous forum. Again, not trying to argue it isn’t true, I’m genuinely curious

If I'm honest I would say no if the argument is that more energy is more better. Or if the argument is that you need a certain caliber bullet to kill elk. Those arguments aren't based in data.

I don't believe anyone will be convinced to give up their magnums to hunt elk with this data, but we, as a knowledgeable forum, shouldn't be giving gun-store advice to people seeking data based decisions when we have evidence of the contrary. In other words, people are more than welcome to recommend magnums and the like as THEIR preference, but we have evidence that proper bullets in 'peashooters' will kill animals just as dead at ranges beyond what I believe an average shooter will take a shot.

 

[id_jon]

Petersens Hunting…. that way you can’t twist my words. Plus it saves me typing too. This is a really good article.

Is the .243 Winchester a Viable Elk Cartridge? - Petersen's Hunting

Ourexperts the author contacted disagreed on whether or not the .243 is a reliable

www.petersenshunting.com

From the article: "Countless elk have been successfully harvested with the .243 without fuss. However, for every success story there are just as many failures."

This can be said about just about any cartridge. As has been said more times than I can count, bullet selection is more important than cartridge.

 

[roosiebull]

What harm comes when the "masses" read they just need a .30cal or something with a magnum primer in it and "the energy" means they only must strike flesh?.

hit em' anywhere with a mag!!!

how many times will the narrative change in this thread? haha.

 

[sndmn11]

I think I would rather argue about religion or covid vaccinations at this point. Can we all recognize that there are valid arguments on both sides? The reality is that the answer lies somewhere in the middle (like most things). There are compromises on both sides. Anybody that thinks they’re 100% correct (me included) is ignorant. Form, I’m genuinely curious how you’re involved in 50 elk kills/year. Here in Montana, we have one of the longest elk seasons in the country. I have several friends that have guided their entire lives that don’t reach the numbers you’re mentioning. This is an anonymous forum. Again, not trying to argue it isn’t true, I’m genuinely curious

I think this has been a good discussion, there are a lot of points of view and everyone has been respectful. When one of these gets so deep @wannakillabigbull gets involved, you know it is intriguing as sin.

What I think is being missed by some are an open mind to examining tests and the possibility that old wives' tales might be misleading. I don't think anyone in here has said the super cartridge doesn't have the capability to kill, but there have been many who say the smaller cartridges do not. I personally could care less what cartridge someone I am hunting with is using. I care where they put that bullet and if they are within the intended parameters of that bullet.

I think that some on here do not care about terminal ballistics facts because of a few comments on here. One point to this was when @Indian Summer mentioned a .32cal bullet didn't penetrate into a deer. I asked if he thought a lower impact velocity would have yielded better results and he said no. Factually, with the same bullet one can expect more penetration and less expansion with a lower velocity. The denial of that fact illustrates that those stuck in camp with old wives don't have a desire to understand the terminal results of their shots.

More expansion = less penetration, more velocity = more expansion

25% more penetration from 20% less velocity


Here is an example of a bullet impacting outside of it velocity window


The focus shouldn't be on caliber, powder capacity, kinetic energy, etc., it should be on terminal performance of the bullet/impact velocity combo. It doesn't take oodles of experience for one to look at results and learn the why of them.

 

[MTWop]

i think you're barking up the wrong tree....

Simply acknowledging that neither of us will ever likely shoot enough animals with the variety of calibers necessary to make a valid conclusion. We are both biased by our own experiences

 

[Marble]

I had two hunters sitting together with identical rifles. Both .30-.06s shooting 185 grain bullets. 6 bulls stepped out of the timber. (why doesn’t stuff like that happen to me?) Both guys shot. All the elk blew back into the timber. They were only about 300 yards from camp so they came back and got me and the packer. We found one bull about 100 yards downhill from where he was hit. By the way both shots were frontal shots. That bull was hit in one lung.

The other bull kept going. He was bleeding pretty good and there was snow so tracking was easy. After about 600 yards he turned uphill. Shit. We found a spot where he bedded for a little and we may have jumped him. After about 2/3 of a mile we backed out until morning. We caught up to him around 9:00. He was bedded down and still alive. He was still able to get up and when he did the hunter finished him off.

The bullet, I can’t recall what make or type, had slipped inside the right shoulder but outside the rib cage. Never entered the lung cavity. I’m here to tell you that if that bull was hit with something bigger he would have died no further than the other bull. If I hit him with the .300 RUM he would have went down in his tracks. A .243 in the same spot and I don’t think we would have recovered him.

I totally agree and I have seen this happen more than one time.

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[Marble]

Maybe I’m just getting old and conservative, but I shudder to think about the masses reading this thread and taking their 223’s elk hunting. Do you really think that’s a good idea? It’s asking for trouble in my opinion. Just because you can, doesn’t make it an ideal choice. At the end of the day, we’re talking about killing living animals, not paper. We owe it to them to do it as humanely as possible. We’re going to have to agree to disagree

That's what I got at earlier. I feel like there should be a "reader discretion is advised" arning for some of the claims here.

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[Indian Summer]

From the article: "Countless elk have been successfully harvested with the .243 without fuss. However, for every success story there are just as many failures."

This can be said about just about any cartridge. As has been said more times than I can count, bullet selection is more important than cartridge.

Dude really… one line out of the article, taken out of context, is quoted because it somewhat supports the small gun theory. There are 20 other sentences in that article that can be quoted that do not support it and the article in general does anything but that.

 

[roosiebull]

Simply acknowledging that neither of us will ever likely shoot enough animals with the variety of calibers necessary to make a valid conclusion. We are both biased by our own experiences

i agree mostly, but there are very few people period who get to see the number of critters die as Form, and he documents very detailed results, which very few do regardless of how many critters killed. i have formed my life since i was very young to spend as much time as i possibly can in the woods, and have relatively seen a lot of stuff shot with firearms and bows, but my relative "a lot" isn't a lot by many standards..... i do agree for the vast majority of us, the data we collect shows what it shows, but the amount of data is not big enough to draw any hard conclusions. i have seen over 60 elk shot, and at least the same deer, with a wide variety of calibers and bullets, and almost 1/3 of them have been mine, which for elk have been with arrows, and the rest have been almost all rifle kills.... still not a big data set, certainly enough to form some fairly strong opinions on what works and what doesn't, and the tendencies of others behind a rifle in the woods.

our elk here are big animals, and it's very thick country... you don't get to watch a wounded elk run for a half mile, and even at that, i would never encourage someone to buy a big magnum to hunt elk (if they ask, they most likely shouldn't get a big magnum) i think the big powerhouse cartridges are an awesome tool, but i think they are a very specialized tool for a person who has spent a ton of time behind a rifle with a lot of experience, yet those who preach them will be quick to advise a new elk hunter they should get a magnum.... i think it's poor advise.

the new elk hunter likely has no business shooting elk in the mountains at extended ranges (where magnums shine) and they shouldn't have that false sense of confidence because they shoot a magnum.

 

[Formidilosus]

Off topic, but if you were going to rebarrel a tikka to a 6mm, what cartridge, twist rate, bullet and vendor would you go with? (20 inch, for hunting and I reload) I appreciate any advice.

6mm Creedmoor, 1-7” factory T3 Lite contour. Bullet depends on what your are doing with it. What game are you hunting?

6 Creedmoor because of availability. I actually personally prefer the 6XC, but the two are identical in performance and the option for the CM make it win out as a general thing.