El vs Razor HD

[kaboku68]

The Deal I think Luke is onto is this... Vortex is here... unlike Zenray and some of the other brands. Vortex is poised to push into the top tier. They keep getting better and better each year. I could run my razors for the rest of my life and be happy. Vortex sells a lot of binoculars. They also get some really good experts pushing their products. Paul Kendall probably has some of the best explanations for the elements of vortex quality. Swaro did not put out sales and salesman incentives until they saw razors biting into their bottom line. I think that this is especially true in the Razor Line of Spotters. Razor Spotters are coming on like gang busters. Razors are an extremely good glass for the money. They are heavy with the exception of the 11-33 X50 MM compact.
We had Dan Williams the SONA Rep presenting and answering questions; and a consumer asked him why SWARO didn't produce a 50 mm like the Vortex Razor compact. You could have heard a pin drop. Swaro isn't worried about Zeiss or Leica. Vortex has a staff that keeps pushing into different niches and sells so many diamondbacks and crossfires that aren't used by people who hunt so much that they are dominating the market.
My hopes are that Maven comes on strong.
Leica gets their sales, customer service and industry staff figured out and people figure out that Ultravid +s cost about like SLC HDs and we have a better more aggressive market with consumers benefitting. Vortex is schooling the other optics companies with great marketing, customer service and product development. Vortex has not discontinued products that are amazing and has not made mistakes like some of the other companies.


1) Bushnell Elite binoculars were really super good and then Bushnell discontinued them for cheaper binoculars.
2) Zeiss dropped the 10X40 armored and the 15X60 BGAs. Zeiss has had winners and losers but it always seems chasing ideals without strong finish. I have heard that the SFs are incredible. We will see.
3) Leupold drops the Gold Ring full size and compacts because they cost too much. Reminds me of Winchester and the Pre-64 Model 70.
4) Leica drops lifetime warranty.
5) Swaro moves slowly but makes sure that their products are very good. They stay swinging in tight with good products. Swaro is going to bring it. They are going to challenge Vortex and continue to sell their extremely high quality products. They change everything slowly but with great deliberate care. I love their model and like their products.
6) Vortex has more lines of products and sell lots and lots of diamondbacks and crossfires. They keep increasing the quality of Vipers and Razors.
They don't jump or react but they apply continued improvement to their products.
7) Nikon has slowly gotten better and better without much for fanfare. However, they haven't built up the base structure to push the Nikon edges as much and seem to kind of go backwards.
8) Pentax makes extremely durable products but they are a bit like Doctor Optic nobody really knows about them.
9) Meopta makes incredible binoculars and probably sells more with the cabela's name on them. They have good recognition amongst the more product savvy consumers and hunters but just haven't set up distribution to get out to everybody. I have heard that they are soft on the eyes but extremely heavy.
Just my views.
Thomas

 

[rodney482]

your definition of "put anyone on staff" is people like Rinella?

I find it amusing when people get anal issues when a company gives someone a sponsorship.

You sound like a guy I use to see on AT all the time.

Yes and no, Eagle optics has been selling glass either under its own name or other brands since 1986. The same family owns both, they just started in 2002 basically subcontracting all of the work to the same Asian factories that make Bushnell, Tasco, Zen Ray, the non gold ring Leupolds to name a few. Granted they are made to each individual manufacturers specs, but that is the basis or them.

Optically the germans have them beat. For the same price point, I have been very impressed with the Meoptas quality of glass. The only piece of asian glass that I have found that compares at all, is the Kowa Promiar spotters. They are a fantastic piece of glass.

The a large part of why Vortex has so much market traction is that they will put anyone on their prostaff.

 

[wyosteve]

Appreciate the insight Kaboku!

 

[WRO]

your definition of "put anyone on staff" is people like Rinella?

I find it amusing when people get anal issues when a company gives someone a sponsorship.

You sound like a guy I use to see on AT all the time.

I was more thinking like half of the semi celebrities on facebook.

The problem is, part of the prostaff deal is one of the prerequisites is getting half of your brain sucked out of your ass. I've seen enough of the social media "prostaffers" giving advice on stuff they don't know jack about or blindly endorsing products because their "team" uses them.

The list of B, C, and D grade "prostaffers" and "industry experts" is miles long.

 

[rodney482]

You must be a Grade A?

I was more thinking like half of the semi celebrities on facebook.

The problem is, part of the prostaff deal is one of the prerequisites is getting half of your brain sucked out of your ass. I've seen enough of the social media "prostaffers" giving advice on stuff they don't know jack about or blindly endorsing products because their "team" uses them.

The list of B, C, and D grade "prostaffers" and "industry experts" is miles long.

 

[WRO]

You must be a Grade A?

Asshole maybe

I'm not on anyones prostaff, I do get some industry deals but only on stuff I already use.

 

[rodney482]

Ok I will stop busting your balls.

Asshole maybe

I'm not on anyones prostaff, I do get some industry deals but only on stuff I already use.

 

[MattB]

Maybe so...I was just comparing MSRP to MSRP as you can also buy Vortex on close out or demo or stuff as well.

Trust me if my eyes saw enough of a difference between the Razors and the Swaros to justify it to me I would go back to swaro. But at the end of the day it really comes down to what the individual can justify. And the difference between 10X42 ELs for my wife and I and 10X42 Razor HDs for us it comes to $4600+ for Swaro and $2400 for Razors. Again not arguing that Swaro isn't better than Razors at all......

Given the EL ranges were discontinued and discounted (he may have paid the then retail price for them for all I know), the right exercise would be to see what that buyer could sell them for in 10 years. He probably won't sell them for $10 more than he paid for them like the gentleman above referenced, but he will probably do better on a % of purchase basis than someone selling a pair of 10 year old Vortex 10 years from now.

To each their own, because I could frankly care less what optics people use. But just like when buying a vehicle, a person should rightly take into account the potential resale price when evaluating the economic equation/cost of ownership.

 

[MattB]

I was more thinking like half of the semi celebrities on facebook.

The problem is, part of the prostaff deal is one of the prerequisites is getting half of your brain sucked out of your ass. I've seen enough of the social media "prostaffers" giving advice on stuff they don't know jack about or blindly endorsing products because their "team" uses them.

The list of B, C, and D grade "prostaffers" and "industry experts" is miles long.

I've got a buddy in "the industry" and he has a joke regarding the "prostaffer handshake". It is when they approach you with an extended hand but with the palm facing up rather than to the side - so you will put some free merchandise in it.

 

[luke moffat]

Given the EL ranges were discontinued and discounted (he may have paid the then retail price for them for all I know), the right exercise would be to see what that buyer could sell them for in 10 years. He probably won't sell them for $10 more than he paid for them like the gentleman above referenced, but he will probably do better on a % of purchase basis than someone selling a pair of 10 year old Vortex 10 years from now.

To each their own, because I could frankly care less what optics people use. But just like when buying a vehicle, a person should rightly take into account the potential resale price when evaluating the economic equation/cost of ownership.

Correct! Time will tell I guess. And I agree about not worrying what others are using. I personally don't hunt enough to justify spending twice as much for swaro over vortex, but many here do and that's great for them certainly. And I just know the vortex work for me and I wasn't giving up anything to the mid 2000 ELs I had. But what do I know I am not even a super cool "f" class prostaffer.

 

[69ChrisCraft]

I know many on here are enamored with the Vortex Razor 50mm spotter....how does it compare with the binos in the Razor line?

I only ask because I've owned the little spotter and while I was impressed by the compactness and to some degree the glass. I decided to sell it after I got ahold of my ELs. I also had to use the Vortex warranty on them (the entire image would shift while using the focus wheel) of course I didn't realize the spotter was broken until I was packing my bags for a January Coues hunt. To their credit they replaced the entire unit no questions asked.

I honestly felt the clarity of the ELs image at 12x was of more benefit than the Razor from 11-33.

 

[tipsntails7]

I personally don't hunt enough to justify spending twice as much for swaro )

Luke I never thought I would call you out but I can't let that slide.
You kill more animals in one year then tags I get for 2 years, much less put on the ground.

If you can't justify it 99% of people out there couldn't either.
But our thoughts align on the razor class of binos.

 

[WRO]

As a counter point, we killed lots of critters when in lived up north with cheap glass, spotting a dall, goat, or even a caribou is not nearly as challenging as finding a bedded mule deer buck, a bull in the brush, or a black tail in a clearcut or the high country.

 

[luke moffat]

As a counter point, we killed lots of critters when in lived up north with cheap glass, spotting a dall, goat, or even a caribou is not nearly as challenging as finding a bedded mule deer buck, a bull in the brush, or a black tail in a clearcut or the high country.

HAHA...yup all you need is tasco up here....

 

[WRO]

HAHA...yup all you need is tasco up here....

I'm not knocking what it takes to kill critters in ak, but imho the glassing game for mule deer, blacktail, and coues deer far exceeds any thing I did up north. .

 

[luke moffat]

Agreed...don't need great glass to locate sheep and goats on the mountainside (unless they are snowy) as the contrast between the animals and the terrain is generally large, but you do want a good spotter.

That said finding moose, bears, caribou, and sitka deer in the alders and such does take quite a bit more effort. As hard as finding couse deer in the desert, likely not.

I didn't take your comment as a knock at all. Just glad I can get by with less for what I hunt as feel sorry for the folks that hunt mulies that need to spend that much to find them...lucky to live up here for sure.

 

[WRO]

Agreed...don't need great glass to locate sheep and goats on the mountainside (unless they are snowy) as the contrast between the animals and the terrain is generally large, but you do want a good spotter.

That said finding moose, bears, caribou, and sitka deer in the alders and such does take quite a bit more effort. As hard as finding couse deer in the desert, likely not.

I didn't take your comment as a knock at all. Just glad I can get by with less for what I hunt as feel sorry for the folks that hunt mulies that need to spend that much to find them...lucky to live up here for sure.

I miss it up there to say the least.

The guide I work for just picked up a set of highlanders. I'd recommend them for you, but you might have an issue with the weight.

 

[luke moffat]

HAHA well when you are a weakling every oz counts!

 

[MattB]

As a counter point, we killed lots of critters when in lived up north with cheap glass, spotting a dall, goat, or even a caribou is not nearly as challenging as finding a bedded mule deer buck, a bull in the brush, or a black tail in a clearcut or the high country.

This is so true, and please understand I don't say this in any way to be disparaging. But by and large glassing for dalls, goats, and caribou is nothing like trying to find a bedded blacktail, coues or mulie. Very - VERY - different exercises by and large. I was talking to a guide friend today, and he was telling me about a buck he found a few days ago. He could not find a thing with his 10x42 EL's, but he grabbed his 15x56's and was able to pick up movement through an oak tree. You generally do not have to do anything like that to find white critters, so the quality of optics just is not as important from an apples to apples perspective.

 

[luke moffat]

Agreed as stated above....don't need as quality optics to hunt Alaska....