Efficacy of Predator Management

[ThunderJack49]

Who all has seen a positive impact from predator hunting on any game animals in there area? Deer, Elk, Turkeys, Rabbits etc.
Has anyone made a concentrated effort to do this with a positive and tangible outcome?
I've read research papers and I am a strong believer in predator management but you rarely hear hunters talking about taking such efforts in a concentrated way and any effects they have.

 

[JeffP_Or]

This won't answer your question but a couple of comments should be included/added:

• Predators are compensatory; one hunter on a property will not be able to deliver results in most situations. Predators simply backfill losses [and do that efficiently - i.e. renewable resource].
• Predator management is a full time effort and one that most hunters cannot sustain. It is a long and constant game to make any recognizable gains [think back to the days of money trapping for valuable furs, poisoning, and bounties - none exist due to devaluation, unpopularity or politics].
• Our state has documented beneficial herd improvement - but it took a sustained government effort over a few years and during calving/fawning to do it and document it [cougars in this instance]. Problem is, it needed funding and support. Funding runs out and support was limited to special interest cattlemen/ranchers/hunters which are all unpopular in today's society; the general public needs to support it and that doesn't happen in the west any longer.

I suspect as a hunter - or even hunters - the best we can do is hunt during the fawning/calving/nesting periods to impact survival of newborn.

 

[ThunderJack49]

This won't answer your question but a couple of comments should be included/added:

• Predators are compensatory; one hunter on a property will not be able to deliver results in most situations. Predators simply backfill losses [and do that efficiently - i.e. renewable resource].
• Predator management is a full time effort and one that most hunters cannot sustain. It is a long and constant game to make any recognizable gains [think back to the days of money trapping for valuable furs, poisoning, and bounties - none exist due to devaluation, unpopularity or politics].
• Our state has documented beneficial herd improvement - but it took a sustained government effort over a few years and during calving/fawning to do it and document it [cougars in this instance]. Problem is, it needed funding and support. Funding runs out and support was limited to special interest cattlemen/ranchers/hunters which are all unpopular in today's society; the general public needs to support it and that doesn't happen in the west any longer.

I suspect as a hunter - or even hunters - the best we can do is hunt during the fawning/calving/nesting periods to impact survival of newborn.

I appreciate your response. Generally, I agree with you, and I think a lot of other hunters do as well. However where I live, in theory a hunter could take several wolves, one bear, one mountain lion and unlimited coyotes. Obviously that would be a tall order to fill all of those tags, but it could be done. It's my belief that a few hunters working together could have impacts on the areas they hunt through targeted predator management, what has been suprising to me is how few hunters are even open to the possibility of trying.
Lastly, I understand that predators will occupy space when territories are left open but there are not infinite numbers of predators, even coyotes, out there.
Overall, I find it confusing and fascinating that many hunters will go to great lengths to hunt deer and elk but just throw their hands up at any attempts of predator management.

 

[realunlucky]

Give this a listen- https://www.rokslide.com/tt51-jeremy-dugger-on-killing-coyotes-and-saving-deer/

He addresses some of the above issues in his experiences.

If you kill a coyote and if it's backfilled by another, where that replacement came from somewhere that now does not have a coyote there. That spreads the population and makes them less effective.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

 

[Hnthrdr]

I agree, predator management can definitely make an impact on having more game animals. Issue is it is the Achilles heel so to speak of our hunting/ NAWM . I love predator hunting, trapping all of it. But to the general pop. It is the hardest to defend, which is why it is attacked by anti’s so often and successfully. IMO the BEST way to control predators is via trapping, that has been eliminated in my state and many other. Co also lost spring bear hunting, and we came damn close to losing cat hunting, coyote hunting will I’m sure get attacked soon along with our fall bear season. I think you are right. It can help, it is probably hard to document what the impacts are because the controls are difficult to implement

 

[Scottf270]

6 years ago you seldom heard a gobble on my buddy's property. After 5 years of intensive trapping, especially nest predators, I have now taken 7 adult gobblers the last 4 seasons.
I have taken out nearly 250 nest predators in that time. I may not be affecting turkey populations on a macro level but I sure as hell have helped in my little corner of the world.

 

[omicron1792]

6 years ago you seldom heard a gobble on my buddy's property. After 5 years of intensive trapping, especially nest predators, I have now taken 7 adult gobblers the last 4 seasons.
I have taken out nearly 250 nest predators in that time. I may not be affecting turkey populations on a macro level but I sure as hell have helped in my little corner of the world.

Amen. I’ve seen the exact same thing on my farm. Heavy predator control and I having booming turkey, deer, and improving quail numbers

 

[ThunderJack49]

Give this a listen- https://www.rokslide.com/tt51-jeremy-dugger-on-killing-coyotes-and-saving-deer/

He addresses some of the above issues in his experiences.

If you kill a coyote and if it's backfilled by another, where that replacement came from somewhere that now does not have a coyote there. That spreads the population and makes them less effective.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

This podcast is what sparked the idea in my head. I've been asking around and it is very rare to find a group of guys doing anything like this. In my little corner of the world I've been working to make something like this happen but there is little interest among the other hunters I know.

 

[Hnthrdr]

This podcast is what sparked the idea in my head. I've been asking around and it is very rare to find a group of guys doing anything like this. In my little corner of the world I've been working to make something like this happen but there is little interest among the other hunters I know.

I’ll tell you the issue with doing it out west, heck on any public. 1. I hunt with 1 maybe 2 other guys really. Hunting our “area” is like 10-15 square miles, most of which is almost exclusively inaccessible once any significant snow falls. We try to hammer the coyotes but it’s tough they are pretty dispersed in the mountains and takes a lot of sets to yield 1 or 2 dogs on a good day. Lions do get hunted a bit but you really have to have dogs. Bears I can get a tag every other year or so but I focus on elk in Sept. the amount of time to really hammer predators would need to be up there 24/7 for a month or two during fawning, I would love it, my wife would divorce me and my job would fire me haha. I would never get a posse going because I don’t want 5-10-15 guys all in the same area I hunt… because they would tell there buddies and all of a sudden it might not be decent hunting anymore haha

 

[ThunderJack49]

I get that. I certainly won’t be sharing my favorite hunting spots with anyone.
On the flip side of that I do live near considerable winter habitat that is relatively accessible on foot and skis.
Montana allows for unlimited coyote hunting, several wolf tags one mountain lion and OTC bears every year. I’m near Yellowstone so unfortunately the wolf quota will close pretty quickly. Unlike other western states calling mountain lions with an electronic caller is also prohibited.
I’m just like everyone else and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to make it all happen between work and family, which is why I thought dugger made an interesting point about making a collective effort with friends to hunt a certain area.
Also, potentially I could kill more bears in the spring by taking friends to specific areas to try and fill their tags.
Montana is not without its limitations but the otc bear tags and unlimited coyote helps some.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Take a look at what AZ G&F did in Unit 10 to help the pronghorn population.

Take a look at what AZ G&F did NOT do when attempting to re-introduce desert bighorn sheep in the Catalinas. Then look at what they had to do to re-introduce the sheep.

All predator control is "short" term especially with prolific breeders like coyotes. Pop a few, save some fawns/chicks/etc, rinse and repeat every year. Consider it in-field target practice for an upcoming hunt.

 

[TaperPin]

Everyone should encourage teenagers to get excited about coyote hunting. They will spend way too much time doing it, have more time than money, and it’s a good activity to keep them from getting in trouble back in town. It’s good training for big game hunting - accurate shooting with the adrenalin of a moving animal is hard to duplicate with a coyote shaped steel plate.

In one afternoon a teenager can learn enough to know the kinds of places to go, typical coyote behavior, the basics of calling, and what makes a good coyote gun.

I’m a firm believer every family should at least have a loaner 243 and ammo to encourage teenagers to get out in the hills and shoot more often. Just as good is a dedicated 22-250 coyote/varmint gun. When a buddy is headed out last minute, like teenagers often do, having a rifle ready to go makes the difference between staying home and being one of the fun kids.

 

[ThunderJack49]

Take a look at what AZ G&F did in Unit 10 to help the pronghorn population.

Take a look at what AZ G&F did NOT do when attempting to re-introduce desert bighorn sheep in the Catalinas. Then look at what they had to do to re-introduce the sheep.

All predator control is "short" term especially with prolific breeders like coyotes. Pop a few, save some fawns/chicks/etc, rinse and repeat every year. Consider it in-field target practice for an upcoming hunt.

Do you mind sharing what you’re referring to?

 

[Hnthrdr]

I get that. I certainly won’t be sharing my favorite hunting spots with anyone.
On the flip side of that I do live near considerable winter habitat that is relatively accessible on foot and skis.
Montana allows for unlimited coyote hunting, several wolf tags one mountain lion and OTC bears every year. I’m near Yellowstone so unfortunately the wolf quota will close pretty quickly. Unlike other western states calling mountain lions with an electronic caller is also prohibited.
I’m just like everyone else and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to make it all happen between work and family, which is why I thought dugger made an interesting point about making a collective effort with friends to hunt a certain area.
Also, potentially I could kill more bears in the spring by taking friends to specific areas to try and fill their tags.
Montana is not without its limitations but the otc bear tags and unlimited coyote helps some.

Agree, I think most guy are pretty helpful when it comes to people asking for help finding a predator spot, I know I am. Unfortunately my area seems to have way more bears in it during fawning than are around when season rolls around in Sept.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Do you mind sharing what you’re referring to?

This can get someone started...

Pronghorn: https://azdailysun.com/news/local/c...cle_b9fec4fc-41ff-11e3-a1a2-001a4bcf887a.html

Sheep: https://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRan...rn-sheep-reintroduction-az-game-and-fish-says

 

[BigDuckHunter]

There were a couple places around home I used to get after the coyotes and coons pretty hard when I was young. One of them ended up being the best place to pheasant hunt in the county for a number of years. I couldn’t even count the number we shot there. Since I moved away, the pheasant numbers are way down. Might just be a coincidence, but I have a feeling the two are connected.

I think predator control can have a huge impact on game animals. Problem is, it can be a full time job. With how smart they are, you’re not killing one everyday, especially in an area that you hunt frequently (which is kind of the point if you’re wanting to control them). And as I get older and busier, I’d rather take a vacation day to have a successful deer or duck hunt than go home empty handed from a coyote hunt.

One of my buddies has taken to calling coon pretty regularly. It’s supposed to help out the turkey and it’s pretty easy to have success with. Unfortunately there’s no market for fur so he just piles them up and leaves them lay…

 

[JeffP_Or]

Overall, I find it confusing and fascinating that many hunters will go to great lengths to hunt deer and elk but just throw their hands up at any attempts of predator management.

Agreed! Most everyone I know and hunt with won't do it - the majority will cite time and family constraints; they sometimes don't even 'get' to big game hunt....another story. To top it off, they won't generally shoot the errant predator while big game hunting - for fear of ruining their hunts; yet we all talk about the lack of game we see. They won't carry the bear/cougar tags 'just in case' and when they do, they usually don't take the shot because they don't want to 'bother' with a predator.
But we most all agree predators - especially with some Oregon laws in place - are a cog in the wheel of the declining game pops.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Agreed! Most everyone I know and hunt with won't do it - the majority will cite time and family constraints; they sometimes don't even 'get' to big game hunt....another story. To top it off, they won't generally shoot the errant predator while big game hunting - for fear of ruining their hunts; yet we all talk about the lack of game we see. They won't carry the bear/cougar tags 'just in case' and when they do, they usually don't take the shot because they don't want to 'bother' with a predator.
But we most all agree predators - especially with some Oregon laws in place - are a cog in the wheel of the declining game pops.

A shot usually has less impact on target game than a cruising predator.

 

[7RemMag]

I'll chime in with my own little piece of anecdotal evidence here...

Dad and I trapped together (hobby) in the fields and woods in "the neighborhood" of where I grew up in rural Northcentral PA from the time I was 13 until I moved to Wyoming. Dad and my sister continued to trap after I left in 2022 or 2023. Early the following spring, they moved out here as well, and they didn't trap much that last fall. We predominantly trapped land predators and occasionally dabbled in a little water trapping where possible. We never put up record numbers of critters. Our average was a coyote or two a year, 7 or 8 foxes (greys and reds), a dozen coon, between one and two dozen grinners, and the occasional skunk. We were good for a bobcat every year or so, and one year we caught two. We ran a few dozen traps on some local landowners and our own little place most years. Wet, muddy weather would usually lead us to run a little less. We also actively predator hunted. Again, we never put up record numbers. A handful of coyotes/fox a year. We were the only ones that trapped in our immediate area. Our mentor and good friend trapped about 5-10 miles away. Our "turfs" didn't overlap much, but it would be dishonest and unrealistic to say that there weren't places where we were dealing with the same animals.

Since we've left that area, we've kept in touch with a few neighbors and old friends. Several have had issues with foxes/coons over the last few years. Many have even commented since that "they didn't realize just how much we kept the predators in check". As stated above, we never really put up great numbers, but we did dog the hell out of them. Between our other hunting, and our trapping, our scent/presence was scattered around hundreds of acres within the same 3 or 4 square mile area. There's certainly something to be said for pressure and how it affects the behaviors of predators, just like any critter. On years where we took it a little easier on the trapping, we would often get more game camera pictures of predators. On years we trapped more, we often wouldn't see as many predators in the "off" season. They seemed to be a little leerier.

Without getting too much more long winded here, I think that proper predator management does play a role in managing game populations. How significant I think can be very situational. We saw lots of instances where there were lots of predators, and there was also lots of game. We also saw times when there were fewer predators, and not substantially more or less game running around.

 

[RockAndSage]

This can get someone started...

Pronghorn: https://azdailysun.com/news/local/c...cle_b9fec4fc-41ff-11e3-a1a2-001a4bcf887a.html

Sheep: https://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRan...rn-sheep-reintroduction-az-game-and-fish-says

Great links, thanks for sharing.

This is the kind of $h*t that drives me nuts though - you see this kind of "clever thinking" on almost any issue that involves killing or punishing predators, whether terrorists or wolves:

“By killing some of the (coyotes), especially the larger males, it results in an increase in population as they become more inclined to reproduce,” said Kim Crumbo, conservation director for the Grand Canyon Wildlands Council. “It doesn’t really reduce the population long-term, so the whole thing is questionable,” he said.

It's literally an argument that your common sense is what the problem is.