E Bikes, the new motorized access scourge?

[wind gypsy]

p.s. I'm not trying to be an azzhole here, but rather pointing out a phenomenon I regularly see. If "big game security" was the goal, we wouldn't allow standard mountain bikes (or even horses) to be used in hunting. After all, they offer an advantage over hiking...no? People usually draw a line right behind where they are standing on a given issue, and this one is no different. The OP is okay with the advantage his "regular" mountain bike has over a hiker,...but thinks e-bikes should be restricted in the name of "big game security" because they tip the scales away from his favor. I'm guilty of doing the same thing btw...I just like to point this out every time these discussions come up.

Horses aint new technology that is increasing presence in hard to get to places where they didn't previously. Other than wilderness, mountain bikes have historically been allowed. I don't disagree that a lot of people are going to be motivated by selfish desires but IMO that is not always the case.

The public wild places are shrinking and in general if we're going to modify how to access them, it should be made more difficult rather than easier IMO.

 

[BBob]

Can I ask what Wilderness area that is? I ask, because mechanized use of ANY type is specifically excluded in Wilderness areas…with very few exceptions. Most of which are preserved for other “administrative” agencies like Fish and Game.

I stand corrected, I was wrong. They are not allowed in that wilderness. I called someone that remembered better than I and was corrected. They were originally banned on all the hiking trails but are now allowed except in that wilderness.

 

[Seeleylakehuntr]

The guy around here that would enforce it won't get out of his truck on most days for another than getting out at the local coffee shop . Banning them wouldn't do much good over where I'm at.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Horses aint new technology that is increasing presence in hard to get to places where they didn't previously. Other than wilderness, mountain bikes have historically been allowed. I don't disagree that a lot of people are going to be motivated by selfish desires but IMO that is not always the case.

The public wild places are shrinking and in general if we're going to modify how to access them, it should be made more difficult rather than easier IMO.

This ^^^.

 

[idahodave]

Horses aint new technology that is increasing presence in hard to get to places where they didn't previously. Other than wilderness, mountain bikes have historically been allowed. I don't disagree that a lot of people are going to be motivated by selfish desires but IMO that is not always the case.

The public wild places are shrinking and in general if we're going to modify how to access them, it should be made more difficult rather than easier IMO.

Lots of technological advancements have made it easier to “go deep”. Lighter rifles, Gore-Tex (and the like), dehydrated foods, backpacking stoves, etc, etc.

And since you mentioned it…does the fact that horses are older “technology” somehow make it okay? You said getting to “wild places” should be “more difficult”…not me.

I grew up hunting off horses. They make that a lot easier in my experience. For the record I’m not advocating their exclusion. Just trying to understand the mindset.

 

[ridgefire]

I think ebikes should be allowed anywhere a horse or mountain bike is allowed. They all aid a person in getting to their hunting spot easier and faster.

 

[wind gypsy]

Lots of technological advancements have made it easier to “go deep”. Lighter rifles, Gore-Tex (and the like), dehydrated foods, backpacking stoves, etc, etc.

And since you mentioned it…does the fact that horses are older “technology” somehow make it okay? You said getting to “wild places” should be “more difficult”…not me.

I grew up hunting off horses. They make that a lot easier in my experience. For the record I’m not advocating their exclusion. Just trying to understand the mindset.

What about the mindset is confusing? It's simple, I'm against creating new exceptions for new technologies that make physically accessing wild places easier. Motorized restrictions were made long after horses were used for access and I'd argue likely took into account horse access when they were created. Where motorized travel has long been against the rules in order to protect wildlife or at least the wildness of the area, making new exceptions to that rule to allow MOTORIZED travel is going backwards. New lighter stuff is a poor analogy, It's never been regulated.

If horse or livestock travel into an area is becoming clearly detrimental to wildlife and creating an area full of people and detracting from the "wildness" of an area, I'm more likely to support further restrictions than I am reducing restrictions.

 

[wind gypsy]

I think ebikes should be allowed anywhere a horse or mountain bike is allowed. They all aid a person in getting to their hunting spot easier and faster.

So does a dirt bike. And an ATV. And a pickup truck. Hell, just pave it all so no sorry couch potatoes feel left out because that would be unfair!

 

[NorthIDHunter]

I think it would be great to know how many people would actually use an e-bike if given the opportunity to use one for free? Like what is the reason some people don't get one and use it where they are allowed? Is it pride? Is it because they are expensive? Is it principles? I don't have one and don't have plans to get one. I am just curious the basis for peoples opinions on them. I like the idea of keeping "wild" places harder to access and recognize the need to protect these places. I once rode a mountain bike on a non-motorized road and because it was a cheap POS it was a terrible experience, I would have much rather started earlier and walked. I now have a much nicer mountain bike and have thought about using it where we live now, but fairly certain the mountains are completely accessible by SxS's, atv's, and motorcycles, so I will be looking for the areas that they can't necessarily access.

 

[xcskier_hunter]

Good topic. It might be a bit of a tangent but I think greater limitations on methods of travel on public lands is the #1 thing that can be done to maintain or even enhance public land hunting and allow us to maintain hunting opportunity (rather than solutions like cutting tags). It drives me nuts to see how integral things like e-bikes, motor bikes, and UTVs are to western hunting, and that it's not just the out of shape people leveraging these tools. So, if an e-bike allows an out of shape hunter to get 3 miles into the backcountry it might allow someone that's in better shape to get in 6 miles. If neither of these hunters were allowed to use e-bikes the out of shape person might go in 1 mile and the in shape person 4 miles, which would likely lessen the pressure on animals and keep more animals on public land.

And it's not just how deep someone can go but how far they can travel in a day. If you can e-bike in 5 miles to one drainage, spook a herd of elk out of it, and then e-bike into another drainage 5 miles in the other direction from your initial starting point and do the same thing, you are having a much larger negative effect on the hunting than someone that's committed to a drainage because they've walked in. These tools that increase mobility essentially make high impact hunting strategies more effective as you can just pick up and leave if you blow a herd of elk out of the area.

I

 

[idahodave]

What about the mindset is confusing? It's simple, I'm against creating new exceptions for new technologies that make physically accessing wild places easier. Motorized restrictions were made long after horses were used for access and I'd argue likely took into account horse access when they were created. Where motorized travel has long been against the rules in order to protect wildlife or at least the wildness of the area, making new exceptions to that rule to allow MOTORIZED travel is going backwards. New lighter stuff is a poor analogy, It's never been regulated.

If horse or livestock travel into an area is becoming clearly detrimental to wildlife and creating an area full of people and detracting from the "wildness" of an area, I'm more likely to support further restrictions than I am reducing restrictions.

You're incorrect. Lighter clothes haven't been regulated, but many, many forms of technology that increase harvest rates have been. Every state in the country regulates firearms and other methods of take. Otherwise, 90 percent of the bowhunting market would be crossbows.

Idaho until VERY recently regulated anything over 65% let off for bows. Rifles have a legal weight limit here to keep rednecks from mounting 50 cals to jeeps and driving roads. Idaho still prohibits scopes on muzzle-loaders. I could go on and on but I'll assume you can follow my drift...which is that LOTS of things that make hunting more successful are regulated.

You're simply giving equestrian use a "pass" because people have been doing it a long time and you're in favor of it. I have no problem with that...it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm just pointing out that that if the goal was to make it "more difficult" to get into "wild places" then horses would be excluded right along next to e-bikes.

 

[TheTone]

I think ebikes should be allowed anywhere a horse or mountain bike is allowed. They all aid a person in getting to their hunting spot easier and faster.

What are you willing to give up for the ease? Shorter seasons, less tags, weapon restrictions? Any time you make things easier and if that means harvest goes up something has to give. We have gotten and continue to get more efficient at killing critters

 

[tdhanses]

I took a friend elk hunting in a "non motorized" area opening day of the Idaho rifle season.
We were sweating up a long grade on mountain bikes in the dark when suddenly a couple fat boys from the Midwest came cruising past us on 1000 watt $7000
E bikes.
They were nice guys and we chatted a few minutes, apparently many areas closed to motorized access have carve outs for e bikes..
These dudes were in terrible shape yet here they were cruising up the mountain to get miles deep into elk habitat.

We ended up running smack into the middle of 6 groups of E bike hunters all along the same ridge system that we'd biked a hard hour to get into.
I was pretty shocked by the tech of those things, I'm talking tricked out with all sorts of gadgets including rifle scabbards.

Are we basically regulating ATV access, and allowing Ebikes to take guys further into even more un-accessible terrain?
I see where this is going and I don't like the outlook for big game security.

Consider it a modern day horse, plenty of fat guys ride horses and i’ve never seen one using their own power to make it move, also horses cause way more damage then any bike with pedals does.

 

[tdhanses]

So does a dirt bike. And an ATV. And a pickup truck. Hell, just pave it all so all so no sorry couch potatoes feel left out because that would be unfair!

What trails are being modified from single track to allow the use of any bike? An ebike isn’t new tech, it’s foundation has been around forever only diff is the assistance given to pedals otherwise it’s just a bike.

To allow pickups on many single track trails would take a considerable amount of work and funds, to allow bikes on a single track takes zero $$$ and labor.

Personally I think horses should be banned from trails before any type of bike with pedals, horses cause a ton of damage to trails.

 

[wind gypsy]

You're incorrect. Lighter clothes haven't been regulated, but many, many forms of technology that increase harvest rates have been. Every state in the country regulates firearms and other methods of take. Otherwise, 90 percent of the bowhunting market would be crossbows.

In general i'm addressing means of access, not means of take or hunting gear and I still think the below quote is a poor analogy. None of the stuff you list here is regulated i.e. a rifle cant be "too light" to use legally.

Lots of technological advancements have made it easier to “go deep”. Lighter rifles, Gore-Tex (and the like), dehydrated foods, backpacking stoves, etc, etc.

Idaho until VERY recently regulated anything over 65% let off for bows. Rifles have a legal weight limit here to keep rednecks from mounting 50 cals to jeeps and driving roads. Idaho still prohibits scopes on muzzle-loaders. I could go on and on but I'll assume you can follow my drift...which is that LOTS of things that make hunting more successful are regulated.

You're simply giving equestrian use a "pass" because people have been doing it a long time and you're in favor of it. I have no problem with that...it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm just pointing out that that if the goal was to make it "more difficult" to get into "wild places" then horses would be excluded right along next to e-bikes.

Maybe you missed it the first time. My stance is we should not be opening up or reducing already existing restrictions to make access to wild places easier. I never said we should me making it harder but i do prefer harder to easier. I'd argue it's much harder to restrict things once people get accustomed to doing them over time so it makes more sense to not open the flood gates more.

I don't care about allowing horses other than it would be awful shitty to people who have invested in training, feed, trailers, real estate, etc on horses only to get the rug pulled out from under them (especially if in favor of ebikes). Me riding a horse in the mountains would likely be bad for my physical well being, haven't been on one since i was a kid close to 30 years ago. So I damn sure am not renting them or buying them, paying to house and feed them, and hauling them from the midwest to the mountains. On the flip side, i could have an ebike bought or rented tomorrow and I'm competent on a bike. If ebikes become standard for mountain access, I will have one so I am on the same playing field as others. I'm infinitely more likely to benefit from ebike access than I am from horse access and there are 10s of thousands or more just like me. That is why I'm against legalizing them in motorless areas and why they are worse than mountain bikes or horses.

 

[wind gypsy]

What trails are being modified from single track to allow the use of any bike? An ebike isn’t new tech, it’s foundation has been around forever only diff is the assistance given to pedals otherwise it’s just a bike.

To allow pickups on many single track trails would take a considerable amount of work and funds, to allow bikes on a single track takes zero $$$ and labor.

Personally I think horses should be banned from trails before any type of bike with pedals, horses cause a ton of damage to trails.

I'm sure the UTV industry can find or already has a solution to getting around without modifying trails. "new tech" semantics aside, ebike has a motor, and should be treated as such.

 

[parshal]

An ebike isn’t new tech...only diff is the assistance given to pedals ....

My wife and I bought ebikes a couple years ago. Ours have a lever like a ski doo that applies full power without having to pedal. Yes, it will assist you as you pedal but it's more like a moped than a bike. It'll do 30 mph. The thing weighs near 70 lbs. with battery and a front shock.

I've considered taking it hunting but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. Most of the places I hunt are either fully restricted or restricted to roads as far as I know.

Adding CPW's rules on ebikes on their lands. Mine is certainly a class 3. Here's the BLM.

 

[mtwarden]

E Bikes, the new motorized access scourge?​

yes

 

[Nickofthewoods]

I've seen fat Texas guys on them inside of designated Wilderness during Archery season. Reported to USFS. Not a fan of things that make it easier for out of shape lazy guys to get farther into the mountains by spending more money. Hire an Outfitter for that.

To the people that compare e-bikes to horses;
E-bikes have no heritage aspect that public land agencies recognize like horses do. E-bikes won't be considered a primitive form of travel for a very long time and by then we'll probably be complaining about guys flying in on their personal drones.

 

[S.Clancy]

As with everything else, whatever happens with the eventual FS decision I'll adapt, and so will the elk/deer whatever. I will say one thing, if I ever see one of those things off-trail it won't ever move again unless it is being carried.