Downloading for some .223 advantages...

[PistolPete]

This came up in another thread, but wouldn't downloading a bigger cartridge confer many of the advantages of a 223, for a one-gun solution? Obviously, cheap loaded ammo and components cannot translate. But, if loading something like a 107 TMK or 100 ELDVT to ~2500 fps in a 6.5 CM - or something like the 87 in a 6 CM - with 25-30 grains of a faster powder, wouldn't a person see many of the 223 advantages (low recoil/spotting shots, less powder usage, even barrel life) along with retaining fully sufficient wounding (at least with the TMK)? Then still have the horsepower to load like normal when necessary...

It's not a perfect solution, but especially since the Tikka 223 doesn't offer any physical size advantages (neither does the Kimber), and some (misguided) states still preclude 22's for deer, and some guys can't spring for 2 rifles (especially 2 decent scopes), it seems like a discussion worth having at least.

 

[wyosam]

This came up in another thread, but wouldn't downloading a bigger cartridge confer many of the advantages of a 223, for a one-gun solution? Obviously, cheap loaded ammo and components cannot translate. But, if loading something like a 107 TMK or 100 ELDVT to ~2500 fps in a 6.5 CM - or something like the 87 in a 6 CM - with 25-30 grains of a faster powder, wouldn't a person see many of the 223 advantages (low recoil/spotting shots, less powder usage, even barrel life) along with retaining fully sufficient wounding (at least with the TMK)? Then still have the horsepower to load like normal when necessary...

It's not a perfect solution, but especially since the Tikka 223 doesn't offer any physical size advantages (neither does the Kimber), and some (misguided) states still preclude 22's for deer, and some guys can't spring for 2 rifles (especially 2 decent scopes), it seems like a discussion worth having at least.

I have a very low recoil load for my 257 Rob AI. The full load for it makes a 500 yard gun (I use monos), the light load make it capable to about 300. It doesn’t have a ton of recoil anyway, but it’s really mellow with reduced loads.


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[Runwilderness]

The mantra has been for heavy for caliber bullets to ensure adequate wound width and depth, not equal bullet weight and velocity regardless of caliber.

 

[PistolPete]

Good point - I forgot to add that the bullets I listed have similar/better BC/SD's than the 77 TMK.

The mantra has been for heavy for caliber bullets to ensure adequate wound width and depth, not equal bullet weight and velocity regardless of caliber.

 

[Runwilderness]

Good point - I forgot to add that the bullets I listed have similar/better BC/SD's than the 77 TMK.

I don’t have on game experience myself, so this is really a @Formidilosus or other data driven hunter here question.

I haven’t seen a formula offered up anywhere, but what I understood from recent podcasts (eg Form on Exo) was that bullet length (assuming equal construction) matters, which typically equates to heavy for caliber. SD is related but not the determine factor for bullet selection…although honestly I’d need to sit gown with a pad of paper to work out the differences in length vs front area for fixed SD across multiple calibers, so I may be missing something.

 

[TaperPin]

This came up in another thread, but wouldn't downloading a bigger cartridge confer many of the advantages of a 223, for a one-gun solution? Obviously, cheap loaded ammo and components cannot translate. But, if loading something like a 107 TMK or 100 ELDVT to ~2500 fps in a 6.5 CM - or something like the 87 in a 6 CM - with 25-30 grains of a faster powder, wouldn't a person see many of the 223 advantages (low recoil/spotting shots, less powder usage, even barrel life) along with retaining fully sufficient wounding (at least with the TMK)? Then still have the horsepower to load like normal when necessary...

It's not a perfect solution, but especially since the Tikka 223 doesn't offer any physical size advantages (neither does the Kimber), and some (misguided) states still preclude 22's for deer, and some guys can't spring for 2 rifles (especially 2 decent scopes), it seems like a discussion worth having at least.

At one extreme, I got really into this idea and found some really accurate reduced loads for a few rifles. All summer I shot a 7 mag with light bullets, pistol powder, and snail slow velocities - recoil was about like a 243. Man that was awesome to use my main rifle as a trainer/plinker. The problem is barrel life is no better than full power loads - 1,000 rounds and it was shocking to find the expensive custom barrel was toast. Without good barrel life, it’s quite easy to justify a smaller rifle to save money rather than reduced loads. With high volumes and our current high prices for reloading components, smaller trainer cartridges make even more sense.

Other than that, reduced loads are great ish. Velocity spreads will be higher, sometimes much higher. At close range, even to 300 yards, it’s barely noticed, but velocities all over the place are not going to do any favors at distance.

 

[Trapperkid]

I have seen someone talking about loading 223 subsonic which should be pretty cheap for plinking and smaller game like raccoon, grouse, foxes. And also having the ability to in the same rifle shoot everything from coyotes up to elk and moose. That’s pretty epic in my book.

 

[Thegman]

I have seen someone talking about loading 223 subsonic which should be pretty cheap for plinking and smaller game like raccoon, grouse, foxes. And also having the ability to in the same rifle shoot everything from coyotes up to elk and moose. That’s pretty epic in my book.

That sounds like, uh...me?

40 grain Speer FP over, I think, 4 grains of Trail Boss. Great for squirrels, grouse or anything a 22LR/22WMR would be for, depending how you load it.


77TMK or something similar for most other things.




So far, the 223 has done this really well, maybe better than any other cartridge.

More to the OP's point, I've downloaded 308 in a way similar to what you describe, for years, for various tasks. Small game loads similar to the 223 above, kind of "medium" loads like you're describing with lighter for caliber bullets using slow pistol/fast rifle powders like 5744, 4198, etc. for light recoiling loads in the 30-30 range with better bc bullets, and typical full power 308 loads. Works great, and those "medium" loads are also exceptionally accurate.

 

[Trapperkid]

That sounds like, uh...me?

40 grain Speer FP over, I think, 4 grains of Trail Boss. Great for squirrels, grouse or anything a 22LR/22WMR would be for, depending how you load it.
View attachment 865958

77TMK or something similar for most other things.
View attachment 865957

View attachment 865959

So far, the 223 has done this really well, maybe better than any other cartridge.

More to the OP's point, I've downloaded 308 in a way similar to what you describe, for years, for various tasks. Small game loads similar to the 223 above, kind of "medium" loads like you're describing with lighter for caliber bullets using slow pistol/fast rifle powders like 5744, 4198, etc. for light recoiling loads in the 30-30 range with better bc bullets, and typical full power 308 loads. Works great, and those "medium" loads are also exceptionally accurate.

That’s what I’m talking about everything from squirrel to moose with the same rifle. Hard to beat that

 

[coyotekilla]

That’s what I’m talking about everything from squirrel to moose with the same rifle. Hard to beat that

Shh... don't tell the wives, they think we need all these rifles..

 

[Moose83]

That sounds like, uh...me?

40 grain Speer FP over, I think, 4 grains of Trail Boss. Great for squirrels, grouse or anything a 22LR/22WMR would be for, depending how you load it.
View attachment 865958

77TMK or something similar for most other things.
View attachment 865957

View attachment 865959

So far, the 223 has done this really well, maybe better than any other cartridge.

More to the OP's point, I've downloaded 308 in a way similar to what you describe, for years, for various tasks. Small game loads similar to the 223 above, kind of "medium" loads like you're describing with lighter for caliber bullets using slow pistol/fast rifle powders like 5744, 4198, etc. for light recoiling loads in the 30-30 range with better bc bullets, and typical full power 308 loads. Works great, and those "medium" loads are also exceptionally accurate.

Would you happen to have the product number for those speer 40gr fn's? Also, seeing as trail boss is unobtainium...do you have a replacement powder? Thanks!

 

[Thegman]

They're actually 46 grain, not 40 grain

Buy Varmint Soft Point Bullet, .224, 46 Grain | Speer

Shopping for the Varmint Soft Point Bullet, .224, 46 Grain - Learn more about the latest Varmint Soft Point Bullet and other hunting, shooting or reloading gear at Speer.

www.speer.com

If you don't have Trail Boss, any of the fast flake pistol powders will probably work. Red Dot, Clays, Extra Lite, etc. all work well.

 

[Moose83]

They're actually 46 grain, not 40 grain

Buy Varmint Soft Point Bullet, .224, 46 Grain | Speer

Shopping for the Varmint Soft Point Bullet, .224, 46 Grain - Learn more about the latest Varmint Soft Point Bullet and other hunting, shooting or reloading gear at Speer.

www.speer.com

If you don't have Trail Boss, any of the fast flake pistol powders will probably work. Red Dot, Clays, Extra Lite, etc. all work well.

That's perfect, thanks! Would you happen to know approximately what speed you are getting out of your load? I have a couple of lbs of red dot but my lyman cast bullet manual shows a 55gr going 1700ish fps, which maybe would be a bit destructive on a grouse if not hit perfectly?

 

[Steve300xcw]

If you don't have Trail Boss, any of the fast flake pistol powders will probably work. Red Dot, Clays, Extra Lite, etc. all work well.

If a guy does some digging. There is a lot of info out there from guys using BlueDot for reduced loads

 

[Chris in TN]

I've shot reduced loads for a couple of rifles but mainly to get one of my kids used to a newer/larger rifle than the last thing they shot. I did this for my .280ai when my oldest was 10 and did it this summer so my 8 year old (now 9) could try the 6.5cm. After a few shots he was fine with full power ammo.

I will likely continue the reduced loads for the 6.5cm until I run out of the various lighter projectiles I have laying around from previous .264" rifles. 37-38 grains of IMR4895 and a 123-140 grain whatever. Plenty of power to kill all the deer we'll shoot at here in the east.

I'd use H4895 if I ever saw it on a shelf anywhere anymore.

At the end of the day for people with safes full of rifles I sort of see it as a false economy unless done to burn up existing excess components. I certainly wouldn't go buying projectiles for reduced loads unless we're talking cast rifle bullets, which is a neat rabbit trail to go down, but hardly worth the time IMO.

 

[Thegman]

That's perfect, thanks! Would you happen to know approximately what speed you are getting out of your load? I have a couple of lbs of red dot but my lyman cast bullet manual shows a 55gr going 1700ish fps, which maybe would be a bit destructive on a grouse if not hit perfectly?

I don't, but it's not 1,700 fps. You should be able to keep that bullet in the 1,000ish fps range with Red Dot. Try about 3 grains of Red Dot to start, that should get you pretty close. A firm crimp will help with consistent ignition. What's the Lyman charge for 1,700fps?

When making these loads and trying to find the bottom end, be prepared to tap a stuck bullet out of the barrel with a cleaning rod. That shouldn't happen at 3 grains of Red Dot though.

Blue Dot is probably too slow for this application. It's good for reduced loads with regular bullets, but it's best at driving those bullets in the 2K+ fps range. It will likely have ignition issues if trying to stay down in the sub-sonic range.