“Don’t shoot my dog” etc

[TreeStandAthlete]

I simply disagree and believe you are 100% wrong. If you look like you are fishing, hunting, going to or from, you are subject you search. If you refuse, your boat, vehicle... is subject to being impounded and then searched. If you refuse such a lawful search, you simply look guilty and will obviously be treated as such, i.e., you bring the results upon yourself. The courts have upheld such searches in multiple states; so I have no doubt that a warden would go about his job and search and simply tell you to tell it to the judge, as you would be at minimum be cited for refusing a lawful search. However, my guess is that any Warden that knows his stuff, will impound everything, as he or she would be within lawful authority to do so.

So you're kinda right, maybe, in a limited number of states, though if any of these instances made it to the US Supreme court I'd take good odds what you're suggesting would be ruled a violation of the 4th amendment. It seems it's a state by state issue with his text laying out a specific example in New York where a Game Warden set up a road block to search for illegally taken game, a driver went right through the road block without stopping, and later the court ruled that the stop by the officer was illegal as he had no probable cause to search the vehicle. Check your state laws but in most cases probable cause is required and no government agent can search a vehicle solely to determine if you are or are not breaking the law without having probable cause to do so.

Side note: I've witnessed first hand a police officer get his ass chewed out in open court for making a blatantly illegal search. Not a pretty sight.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarship.law.uwyo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1512%26context%3Dwlj&ved=2ahUKEwjD37TTxvzyAhUZKFkFHTw1CVoQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2mKvK57XitJASblAeDNVVL

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[TheGDog]

Someone makes you pull your gun out so they can inspect it? Wouldn’t that a be a violation of the 4th?

NOPE.. CDFW DFG officer have thee highest privileges when it comes to executing searches. I just learned to what degree this Saturday. And they don't need warrants for sh*t!

 

[TheGDog]

So you're kinda right, maybe, in a limited number of states, though if any of these instances made it to the US Supreme court I'd take good odds what you're suggesting would be ruled a violation of the 4th amendment. It seems it's a state by state issue with his text laying out a specific example in New York where a Game Warden set up a road block to search for illegally taken game, a driver went right through the road block without stopping, and later the court ruled that the stop by the officer was illegal as he had no probable cause to search the vehicle. Check your state laws but in most cases probable cause is required and no government agent can search a vehicle solely to determine if you are or are not breaking the law without having probable cause to do so.

Side note: I've witnessed first hand a police officer get his ass chewed out in open court for making a blatantly illegal search. Not a pretty sight.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarship.law.uwyo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1512%26context%3Dwlj&ved=2ahUKEwjD37TTxvzyAhUZKFkFHTw1CVoQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2mKvK57XitJASblAeDNVVL

In my instance, probable cause is that I was still wearing all my camo. In the polite and pleasant conversation I just mentioned I'd got my limit of Doves. Explained that this other spot I went to was just to take a few shots to re-sight-in my .223 Rem rifle after having to replace the scope. I'd done initial 25yd near home in indoor range, but you always have to do at least 100yd, no real place to do that near me so figured I'd do a two-fer and quickly handle that issue on way back home. I assume he heard the shots and that drew him in like flies on sh*t. And the area I was in, there's unfortunately a lot of debris people illegally dump and then also lot folks shooting at the debris. That wasn't me, I brought my own target and holder. I only shot just enough to get the zero and that's it. He could clearly see from it being in my truck that my story jives... yet he still... low-key non-chalantly asked ... eventually ... to see everything. Like even with I heard one of the Dove decoy was still activated... when I went to go shut that off I even noticed how he made sure to re-position himself so he could see in my pack, while I was fetching my papers for him.

 

[Bubblehide]

So you're kinda right, maybe, in a limited number of states, though if any of these instances made it to the US Supreme court I'd take good odds what you're suggesting would be ruled a violation of the 4th amendment. It seems it's a state by state issue with his text laying out a specific example in New York where a Game Warden set up a road block to search for illegally taken game, a driver went right through the road block without stopping, and later the court ruled that the stop by the officer was illegal as he had no probable cause to search the vehicle. Check your state laws but in most cases probable cause is required and no government agent can search a vehicle solely to determine if you are or are not breaking the law without having probable cause to do so.

Side note: I've witnessed first hand a police officer get his ass chewed out in open court for making a blatantly illegal search. Not a pretty sight.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarship.law.uwyo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1512%26context%3Dwlj&ved=2ahUKEwjD37TTxvzyAhUZKFkFHTw1CVoQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2mKvK57XitJASblAeDNVVL

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I think your missing a key word in the law "unreasonable" that in and of itself implies there are reasonable searches and I am sure the supreme would agree.

 

[TreeStandAthlete]

I think your missing a key word in the law "unreasonable" that in and of itself implies there are reasonable searches and I am sure the supreme would agree.

If you read the University of Wyoming Law article I linked, even a known poacher being pulled over at night with a deer rifle and a blanket covering something in his back seat was ruled an unreasonable search by the Wisconsin supreme court. A reasonable search would be I saw someone shinning a spotlight into a field and then heard a gunshot. He was wearing camo is about as unreasonable as a search can get.

Edit: not saying he won't still search you just saying if he sticks you with some chicken shit fines or you're actually guilty if you don't consent to searches, shut the **** up, and lawyer up your chances are good of winning because all his evidence will be ruled "fruit from the poison tree" from his bogus search.

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[Bubblehide]

If you read the University of Wyoming Law article I linked, even a known poacher being pulled over at night with a deer rifle and a blanket covering something in his back seat was ruled an unreasonable search by the Wisconsin supreme court. A reasonable search would be I saw someone shinning a spotlight into a field and then heard a gunshot. He was wearing camo is about as unreasonable as a search can get.

Edit: not saying he won't still search you just saying if he sticks you with some chicken shit fines or you're actually guilty if you don't consent to searches, shut the **** up, and lawyer up your chances are good of winning because all his evidence will be ruled "fruit from the poison tree" from his bogus search.

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You are totally missing the point. A person being a known poacher does not equate to search rights. Him having a rifle (unless he is a felon) does not equate to search rights. Having a blanket covering things does not equate to search rights. Wearing camo does not equate search rights. You are presenting apples to oranges arguments.

In the case of the poacher there would have to be reasonable evidence that he was poaching; for example, if he admitted to firing his rifle, if the Warden could smell gunpowder... i.e., there would need to be evidence the poacher was hunting/poaching; everything you present in this case clearly does NOT meet the standard.

However, I do not for the life of me understand in the case of hunting/poaching taking the side of there being no reasonable searches. But perhaps that is driven from my experiences as I hunt some of the most poached areas in my state and I have come across the evidence, and witnessed it way to many times. I have seen deer shot solely as a bear attractant. I have witnessed guys shoot limits, hide some birds in their vehicle, and go back and continue to shoot more birds; shoot an illegal bird and bury it, and the list goes on. If Wardens did not have the right to search those engaging in hunting our wildlife populations would be more dismal. Perhaps your location is different. perhaps the hunters in your area have higher ethics, morals and values. As for me, I clearly see a distinct need for Wardens to have the legal right for such searches. Being searched is simply a minor inconvenience for all the right reasons.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

Late to the party here on this one but....the funniest one I have to yell regularly now "Hey, we have llamas!" when we encounter horses. Horses are not fans of llamas LOL

 

[TheGDog]

Being searched is simply a minor inconvenience for all the right reasons.

Perhaps YOU might see it as "A minor inconvenience". However, I personally? I do not want to have ANYTHING to do with any LEO if I can help it. I DO NOT see it as "a minor inconvenience"... I see it as "Seriously? A single, by himself 52yo guy with a mortgage and everything else... obviously way in the Hell away from his home... everythiung packed up in his car, obviously ready to head on out... it's middle of the day... I tell you what I've done and was doing, conversationally... AND... you can straight-out see isht in my backseat that corroborates all the statements I've made, because duh, of course their True... and yet.. you STILL wanna sweat this dude who is obviously literate, an eloquent speaker, cordial, friendly and all this other isht? Naw man... bump that noise. That's not cool.

 

[TheGDog]

PS.. just to show an example of what I'm talking about... This is from a Small Game and Upland group I'm in on FB:

"
The problem with Wardens is they assume your guilty before they even say hi . Last time out I was stopped by a young Warden , as he checked my gun plug he asked how Many birds I had , I said 4 . I pulled them out of my bag and only had 3 . He immediately acted like he just busted me with 100lbs of meth . He said if I lost a bird it was an offense by waisting game ……. Dude I eat my birds I said . He said I have to find the bird I said maybe I miss counted ? Obviously I did . So he made me search my area to no avail . I finally said , dude you can look all fricken day , I’m done ! He finally let me go . LESSON learned ! Let them count the birds ! It will save you an hour of grief !
"

 

[Bubblehide]

Perhaps YOU might see it as "A minor inconvenience". However, I personally? I do not want to have ANYTHING to do with any LEO if I can help it. I DO NOT see it as "a minor inconvenience"... I see it as "Seriously? A single, by himself 52yo guy with a mortgage and everything else... obviously way in the Hell away from his home... everythiung packed up in his car, obviously ready to head on out... it's middle of the day... I tell you what I've done and was doing, conversationally... AND... you can straight-out see isht in my backseat that corroborates all the statements I've made, because duh, of course their True... and yet.. you STILL wanna sweat this dude who is obviously literate, an eloquent speaker, cordial, friendly and all this other isht? Naw man... bump that noise. That's not cool.

I am not intimidated by law enforcement, perhaps that is why I have a very different perspective. But then, I have had several uncomfortable interactions with deputies and city cops. But the outcome was always me making them much to uncomfortable to cite me for anything (I am not saying that I have never been cited). I have been threatened with arrest to getting bogus tickets and winning in court. I have told 2 cops that I will fight the citation and destroy all their integrity, in the eyes of the judge. Granted, those cops (2 seperate incidents) were not happy, but they also did not write me up. In short, I guess I am just much more comfortable dealing with jerk law enforcement. But I will say, from my experience, the jerk law enforcement officers have been very few.

 

[BFR]

Yeah, Commifornia wardens are in a class of their own. Before I escaped I hunted an area the warden stalked us, literally. He would block the road and check you, your vehicle, tags etc then do it again later that day. He would do that 3-4 days during a week, checking it all every time. On one occasion he validated my tag on my way back to camp with a deer. A couple days later he checked me again, I still had a bear tag, this time he followed me back to camp to see if my deer was still there.

But I didn’t shoot his dog either, more tempted to shoot him though.

 

[TreeStandAthlete]

Perhaps YOU might see it as "A minor inconvenience". However, I personally? I do not want to have ANYTHING to do with any LEO if I can help it. I DO NOT see it as "a minor inconvenience"... I see it as "Seriously? A single, by himself 52yo guy with a mortgage and everything else... obviously way in the Hell away from his home... everythiung packed up in his car, obviously ready to head on out... it's middle of the day... I tell you what I've done and was doing, conversationally... AND... you can straight-out see isht in my backseat that corroborates all the statements I've made, because duh, of course their True... and yet.. you STILL wanna sweat this dude who is obviously literate, an eloquent speaker, cordial, friendly and all this other isht? Naw man... bump that noise. That's not cool.

There are few things as American as having a healthy distrust and dislike of government agents

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[TheGDog]

I am not intimidated by law enforcement, perhaps that is why I have a very different perspective. But then, I have had several uncomfortable interactions with deputies and city cops. But the outcome was always me making them much to uncomfortable to cite me for anything (I am not saying that I have never been cited). I have been threatened with arrest to getting bogus tickets and winning in court. I have told 2 cops that I will fight the citation and destroy all their integrity, in the eyes of the judge. Granted, those cops (2 seperate incidents) were not happy, but they also did not write me up. In short, I guess I am just much more comfortable dealing with jerk law enforcement. But I will say, from my experience, the jerk law enforcement officers have been very few.

Usually if I know I'm either in the right... or I know it's not possible that the cop could have possibly seen me commit the transgression... then I may attempt to debate it with them. You make a statement kinda politely shooting down his assertion, that kinda shows them you're aware of WTF the laws are in regard to whatever the hell it was they elected to pester you with. Then you have to seehow they respond.. some willratchet up their aggression a lil bit in the convo... you detected that and dial your side backdown to "Hey it's your world, I'm just a squirrel trying to be about my business. If it weren't for my work needing me to make the drive all the way up over here to your neck of the woods, I wouldn't be here... and as you know.. the fwy entrance is only 2 more blocks away and then I can get the heck out of WestLA"

Was referring to a faint memory of a moto incident one time where the bike cop saw me lane-split up to the front of the protected dual left-hand turn lanes... ((right there at Pico and Overland for those curious) then the light turned green as I approach, I got on it aggressively upon reaching the front to make the turn... I immediately saw him up ahead while executintg the turn and therefore backed-off... so.. I technically never went over the speed limit, and for exhibition of speed, you have to break the rear-tire loose or lift the front end, neither of which happened of course, so I knew he had nothing on me. (Especially since it would be impossible for them to detect your rate of growing acceleration, and there are no laws on the book prohibit the RATE at which you can accelerate up to the speed limit... as long as you don't break loose or lift the front end up, or wind it out way high up in the revs, again which I wasn't on that 1000cc bike) armed with that knowledge... that's when I pushed back a little in the beginning, then I could tell it kinda pissed him off.. so when he flexed back at me, I took a little more timid approach where I stated I wouldn't even be here but we had to design something complex so they wanted me to come in that day, and how I lived in a whole another county away and had no desire to remain in his town 1 more second, and how Daddy has to go pickup the boy from daycare too.

I actually had thought he changed his mind at first because he didnt' go berserko and immediately put on his lights, so I figured just roll with it and play "the slow game" (as I call it) until he was gone, but then almost like an afterthought, he elected to hit the lights, f*cker. Made me do all the stupid BS of get papers etc. All for nothing.

 

[2ski]

There are few things as American as having a healthy distrust and dislike of government agents

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Yes. But no too. The same man who doesn't trusts the warden/police officer/sheriff pulling them over often rallies to the defense of a police officer that kills a man no questions asked. Or choose another government man that might be distrusted. Weird times.

 

[Poser]

There are few things as American as having a healthy distrust and dislike of government agents

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Having been on hunting forums for quite a few years, it still seems unclear whether we are supposed to be anti gov’t and, by extension, cops being agents of the govt, dissent against any police efforts that I fringe upon personal liberties in the slightest capacity, or, Police boot lickers. It’s an interesting dichotomy as many seem to claim both statuses at the same time: “screw the government but fly the blue flag”

 

[TheGDog]

Well.. IMO.. this has all come about because of how the Politicos... after 9/11... started mis-using the Term "Patriot" or "Patriotic" and "Patriotism" in an Extremely VILE and INCORRECT fashion.

THEY use the Term "Patriot" as sort of this "Hey, you need to get into this psychological InGroup WE have going on here... otherwise you're not a Patriot. They use it as like this brow-beating term to attempt to socially coerce folks to align with THEIR thinking! Nowadays it's almost ALWAYS used INCORRECTLY!!!

A Patriot... is like a shrewd shopper... whose greatest concern is getting the most bang for their buck. Especially Long Term! My meaning here is that a true Patriot does not give out Trust easily. A true Patriot QUESTIONS AUTHORITY because he knows full well humans are humans and there is NOTHING special about that other mofo above himself... and it doesn't matter what socioeconomic level those politicos come from or are now in... they still have the propensity to do shady isht just like any other criminal, and in those positions of power shady stuff HURTS MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE... for THEIR gain. Without thought to what said changes will do in terms of massive uphill legal battles our children and grandchildren might be faced with to UNDO that BS.

Patriotism is NOT losing your isht because somebody takes a knee during the National Anthem in front of the flag your service member family member might have had draped over their coffin. that family member knowingly and willingly decided to fight for all of our rights expressly to be able to do such a thing when we feel our governance has crossed a line and needs correction.

Patriotism is appreciating that the dude whose doing it, is trying to peacefully call out and shine a light on something he has a grievance with.. and that he's trying to calmly and purposefully shine a light on something important that he believes needs change. Whether his opinion is right or wrong is irrelevant in the matter. The important thing is that he did it PEACEFULLY and the way we'd LIKE people to address their grievances... rather than going buck-nutty and rioting and looting like a freaking animal.

True Patriotism would make you instead... want to take the moment to have a one-on-one talk with some young person who happens to trample on the flag or EFF around and burn it.. for a reason that you realize is not true or not worthy of putting our colors in that kind of undignified spotlight.

I have a real problem with the folk who blindly lose their isht regarding anybody doing anything they don't like concerning the flag. The ability to do just that... is the ESSENCE of us having Freedom to express our discontent over some part of the system which directly affects us! AND... at the same time... a True Patriot would be judicious and make sure to thoroughly contemplate that proposed act of protest and make sure that within themselves... they feel certain that the underlying issue is important enough.. and that they have the facts and their understanding of them...clear before they "go there".

A True Patriot DOES NOT condemn somebody for trying, from a place of genuine concern, to shine a light and bring attention to something they believe strongly in... no matter the 1st amendment protected way in which they go about doing It.. as long as it doesn't hurt others or compromise their rights in doing so.

And lastly... a True Patriot understands that once you've exhausted all available methods of procedure and protocol to invoke change in a gentlemanly way.... then... if no reasonable compromise or change or address of grievances can be reached... then it's time to mobilize all the other True Patriots and pursue "other" possible means of "rectifying" the situation (hint, hint)

 

[TheGDog]

Yes. But no too. The same man who doesn't trusts the warden/police officer/sheriff pulling them over often rallies to the defense of a police officer that kills a man no questions asked. Or choose another government man that might be distrusted. Weird times.

No questions asked, over a officer involved shooting? Where you been livin' Son?

Certainly not in America homeboy. Right off the top of my head.. the words "George Floyd" come to mind and there are literally thousands more.

 

[Opah]

Hey Dog I know you got the same advise I got, wear your civys to where you are going to hunt and then Change and after hunting change back into your civys,
Saves you a lot of BS on the road coming and going

 

[idelkslayer]

You guys say all that when a hiker asks you not to shoot their dog?

 

[2ski]

No questions asked, over a officer involved shooting? Where you been livin' Son?

Certainly not in America homeboy. Right off the top of my head.. the words "George Floyd" come to mind and there are literally thousands more.

That was my point. So many people that jump to the defense of the cops with George Floyd are the first ones to not trust the game warden or other LEO's. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

And you were so spot on about the flag thing. What's a better more patriotic form of protest? Kneeling for the anthem or going inside the capital?