Disgusting!!!!!

[bbrown]

I know - innocent until proven guilty but...

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-n...in-wildlife-scheme-that-illegally-killed.html

 

[thru-hunter]

We had a bear guide up here that would fly around and shoot moose from the air then take clients in to kill bears on the gut pile. About as low as you can get in the hunting realm short of that whacko Robert Hansen.

 

[IAHNTR]

VERY. I really wonder how some people sleep at night.

 

[bbrown]

It was nice to see the DOW refer to this case as criminal and had nothing to do with hunting. I hate how often when these poaching cases happen that the term hunting is used.

 

[Shrek]

If they had been trapping and killing every lion and bobcat they could I would wish then the best but the part about taking clients out on what they believed were fair chase hunts and ripping them off is what bothers me. The cats are good riddance to me.

 

[bbrown]

Hmmm not sure if you trying to stir the pot but I'll bite. Intentionally maiming an animal to "hunt" it later with clients for profit is what bothers me. Let alone the radio collars and crossing state lines to do it.
I am all for predator control via hunting and trapping but not like this.

 

[SHTF]

Pretty sick. I say we round him and his buddy up shoot them both in the foot drop them 30 miles in the middle of no where and tell em to start running. =-) Sometimes doing something to someone that they did is all to good of a payback =) I hope they get the book thrown at them.

 

[lintond]

Pretty sick. I say we round him and his buddy up shoot them both in the foot drop them 30 miles in the middle of no where and tell em to start running. =-) Sometimes doing something to someone that they did is all to good of a payback =) I hope they get the book thrown at them.

I agree! Maybe a grizzly or cougar would get them.

 

[justin davis]

Low life's. Screw shorting them in the foot. I say grab the guys and drag them behind a truck through a city for all to see.

 

[Shrek]

Hmmm not sure if you trying to stir the pot but I'll bite. Intentionally maiming an animal to "hunt" it later with clients for profit is what bothers me. Let alone the radio collars and crossing state lines to do it.
I am all for predator control via hunting and trapping but not like this.

I think the maiming of the cats and not killing them outright is pretty sick and then passing it off as hunting is pathetic. I'm from the old school of predator management , it should be ruthless in its suppression. Poison , trapping , and shooting in that order is my feelings about it as that's the order of effectiveness.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

All right, I will bite on this issue.

The North American Model of wildlife management was built upon the idea that Humans are now the prime apex predator and with our ability to reason and think, we manage populations of all game based on carrying capacity. I say this knowing that the state level, and federal political machines often dictate game numbers and programs, but the intent is for all animals to survive in healthy populations.

These guys should have the book thrown at them if proven guilty. I can't stand it if I don't kill an animal on the first shot, and couldn't imagine doing this. Wrong, plain and simple.

However, just because an animal feeds on the same animals we prefer to hunt does not make it any less of an animal that we are obligated to manage in a healthy population. Poison was banned because it was killing a lot more than just wolves, it was killing Eagles and other birds of prey. Do we kill off all the birds we love to see in the wilderness areas in order to serve one species, namely ourselves?

Honestly, the wolves were the losers in the predator war. I doubt they wanted to be moved here, but we get all tict off when they behave like wolves but didn't put up a fight in the 90's when they were introduced. If we accept the fact that they are here now and do our part to manage their populations through hunting we will be in a much better state in the long run. But I have a hard time blaming them for all of the decreases in elk populations when there are surplus cow tags in regions that have previously had carrying capacities of 19K drawn down to 4k. Those populations were cut by Montana's state legislature to reduce elk interaction with cattle, could we be fighting the wrong fight?

 

[Shrek]

I think we all agree these guys are scum for torturing the animals. I would not agree that we need to keep large populations of top predators around and careful use of poison will not wipe out the raptors so I disagree there. There is no argument from me that ranchers are not the elks biggest advocates for sure. I was in a unit of eastern Montana last year that has hardly any elk but it was either sex general tag and the only reason I could see for that was it was cattle country. I think ranchers are very concerned that elk could reestablish themselves on the plains and compete with cattle on their ranches and blm grazing leases. Wish it wasn't so but I can see where the ranchers are coming from . Elk are to cattle as wolves are to elk. A lot of wolves means a lot fewer elk and a bunch of elk means a lot fewer cows can be supported by the range.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

So what constitutes a healthy population of predators in your mind? What is careful use of poison?

We don't have any management control over Grizzly bears right now, so I can pretty confidently say that they are likely above carrying capacity in their territory. Wolves are now being managed, and in my state specifically many of the trophy zones met their quotas. We also have the shoot on sight zone which IMO isn't the greatest policy, but it passed legal scrutiny so I digress.

All in all I personally believe that it is far better to manage them rather than be scared of them. I don't like it that we re-introduced wolves, that some argue are not even the native species. My preference would have been for them to come back naturally as it would have only been a matter of time. It doesn't matter now though, they are here and we have to manage them in such a way that ensures they survive as well as the Ungulate populations with which they feed.

 

[Shrek]

So what constitutes a healthy population of predators in your mind? What is careful use of poison?

A healthy population in my perfect world is what the zoo's want to keep in their pens and the careful use of poison is whatever it takes to limit them to the zoo. But that's in my perfect world. In the real world I want the predator population at the point that their impact on game is within the margin of error in the population survey and the use of poison limited to what it takes to keep them there. If half the raptors die of poison then all I feel about that is I don't eat hawks.

 

[SHTF]

Shrek you need a better understanding about the circle of life and how that works. Your perfect world would lead to extinction of many populations of predators. Those are in fact just as important as the prey in the world to keep a balance.

 

[Sam Millard]

Careful Shrek..if you take the "wild" out of wilderness, where will you go? Predators are a vital part of the landscape/experience out here, at least to me.

To the OP, what kind of clients do you think they had that required slowing down the cats for a shot?

 

[Shrek]

SHTF ! I have a pretty good handle on the circle of life and it is my wish for humans to replace all apex predators. It can't be done is because of a lack of political will not for lack of physical ability. If we made the choice to eliminate the lions , grizzlies , wolves , and black bears we could step in and fill their function for human benefit. Smaller predators would backfill all the smaller prey niches and humans would fill all the large animal management goals. Since the beginning of the 20th century that has been the norm for most of the country with the exception of black bears. All the studies about the over population of elk and it's consequences came from studies done on the unmanaged herds in Yellowstone park. Outside of the parks there were no major problems that couldn't be traced to political decisions.

 

[bbrown]

To the OP, what kind of clients do you think they had that required slowing down the cats for a shot?

I thought about that too or even worse how did the "outfitter" (And I use the term very loosely) keep explaining those injured paws. Im sure it will come out after trial but I am curious what finally lead to these guys getting caught. The article says 4 other guys already plead and I would assume are cooperating so I would guess there will be more to this story.

 

[wyodan]

Predators are a vital part of the landscape/experience out here, at least to me.

Fully agree with you Sam! That is part of the reason that I live where I do!

 

[bbrown]

Shrek - your logic has me scratching my head...

Might be worth a shot to go back and study how ecology really works - your wish would be a catastrophe.