Did it make the jump?

[z987k]

Genetic CJD is so rare that I find it more implausible that two close by friends both had genetic CJD.
Was it from mad cow? That's more likely, and I can't imagine the CDC not going in and testing everything they can every time a case of CJD is found. We're extremely protective of our cattle here and keeping BSE out. Try importing beef from England.
Did CWD make the jump. It's also plausible. With the past history of prion diseases, you should expect it to eventually happen. Although this study posted earlier is really good news on that front. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012792/


The thing I find odd about the study is that there's no mention of testing of the meat afterwards. If there was someone confirmed with CJD in a CWD area, you go take all the deer and beef in their freezer and test it. It wouldn't provide conclusive evidence, it'd be a really important thing to see to add to long term study. Also you watch their family members from here on out for signs. It's likely at the least their significant other also ate the same food.

In the near term, I'm more concerned about exposure to cattle and it decimating our beef industry if it took off in cattle. There's studies on that and it appears to have a fairly low, but not 0 transmission rate orally.

 

[Short Track]

Fish & Game should certainly send out information on how to test meat. Where to send, and how to collect proper samples. Even after butchering..

 

[Fordguy]

The thing I find odd about the study is that there's no mention of testing of the meat afterwards. If there was someone confirmed with CJD in a CWD area, you go take all the deer and beef in their freezer and test it. It wouldn't provide conclusive evidence, it'd be a really important thing to see to add to long term study. Also you watch their family members from here on out for signs. It's likely at the least their significant other also ate the same food.

Very few people keep meat for the duration of the incubation period of prion diseases in humans. You're looking at a decade or more in some cases.

 

[KurtR]

If people want the test thats fine but they should have to pay for it them selves. Why waste more money on something that hasnt changed in 50 plus years

 

[JohnJohnson]

The thing I find odd about the study is that there's no mention of testing of the meat afterwards. If there was someone confirmed with CJD in a CWD area, you go take all the deer and beef in their freezer and test it.

It's just a case study, not a real study. So the whole thing is a medical student saying "Hey, look at this weird thing I saw from a couple of my patients. Let me take a guess why." That's why there's no methods section of the paper and the results include essentially wild guesses.

Side note: looks like this isn't the only Michigan CJD cluster in recent times.

Case report: Two clusters of Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease cases within 1 year in West Michigan - PMC

Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (CJD) is a rare, rapidly progressive, and uniformly fatal neurodegenerative disease. The reported incidence of CJD is 1 to 2 per million people worldwide annually, with fewer than 1,000 cases in the United States per year. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[z987k]

Very few people keep meat for the duration of the incubation period of prion diseases in humans. You're looking at a decade or more in some cases.

This is true. I'd still go see what's in their freezer now. Not to make conclusive evidence, but to have a data point for the future if we start getting a lot more data.

 

[roosterdown]

We finally have had some CWD cases in our immediate neighborhood - it's been coming. So I guess we'll start testing kills.

I did have an old family friend (well...early 50's - not that old) die of CJD a few years ago. Not from a hunting family, so less likely to be a connection.

Horrible way to go.

 

[chindits]

It's just a case study, not a real study. So the whole thing is a medical student saying "Hey, look at this weird thing I saw from a couple of my patients. Let me take a guess why." That's why there's no methods section of the paper and the results include essentially wild guesses.

Side note: looks like this isn't the only Michigan CJD cluster in recent times.

Case report: Two clusters of Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease cases within 1 year in West Michigan - PMC

Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (CJD) is a rare, rapidly progressive, and uniformly fatal neurodegenerative disease. The reported incidence of CJD is 1 to 2 per million people worldwide annually, with fewer than 1,000 cases in the United States per year. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don’t find your conclusion of the actual source article’s conclusion accurate. It is my interpretation that they are suggesting further surveillance is needed in these areas and nothing more. So I’m not going to get defensive or dismissive about their interest in the subject. I’m still going to eat elk and moose, but I encourage everyone else to stop hunting for my benefit.

Conclusions:​

Clusters of sporadic CJD cases may occur in regions with CWD-confirmed deer populations, hinting at potential cross-species prion transmission. Surveillance and further research are essential to better understand this possible association.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I don’t find your conclusion of the actual source article’s conclusion accurate.

How can the source article's conclusion mean anything when the text asserts, without evidence, a bunch of unproven speculation? It's a house built on a non-existent foundation.

Are any of the following points wrong?:

1. No actual evidence that they ate CWD infected deer meat
2. Author is a medical student with little to no experience in actual research (I looked at his publication record)
3. CWD has never been proven to transmit to humans
4. There are other Michigan CJD clusters just within the last few years, are they all eating CWD infected meat?

We have no evidence the two people even ate CWD-infected deer meat at all. If we have no evidence of that, then everything past that is pure conjecture. Calling that out isn't being mean, it's holding them accountable.

Here's someone sharing what Michigan's big game biologist said about the article. He's more diplomatic than me about it but he basically says the same thing.

Is CWD the Imminent Doom for Hunting?

If the story in the link below proves true, I guess it was just a matter of time. I've always been on the fence about what I would do with the meat if I had a deer test positive for CWD. I've always been reluctant to say I'd throw the meat away as there has never been a case of it hopping from...

rokslide.com

 

[grfox92]

How can the source article's conclusion mean anything when the text asserts, without evidence, a bunch of unproven speculation? It's a house built on a non-existent foundation.

Are any of the following points wrong?:

1. No actual evidence that they ate CWD infected deer meat
2. Author is a medical student with little to no experience in actual research (I looked at his publication record)
3. CWD has never been proven to transmit to humans
4. There are other Michigan CJD clusters just within the last few years, are they all eating CWD infected meat?

We have no evidence the two people even ate CWD-infected deer meat at all. If we have no evidence of that, then everything past that is pure conjecture. Calling that out isn't being mean, it's holding them accountable.

Here's someone sharing what Michigan's big game biologist said about the article. He's more diplomatic than me about it but he basically says the same thing.

Is CWD the Imminent Doom for Hunting?

If the story in the link below proves true, I guess it was just a matter of time. I've always been on the fence about what I would do with the meat if I had a deer test positive for CWD. I've always been reluctant to say I'd throw the meat away as there has never been a case of it hopping from...

rokslide.com

Thanks for posting that link I haven't seen it. I have heard over and over from people that are qualified to make the statement, that CWD prions would be extremely difficult to make the jump to humans, it's not the right kind of Prion.

I would think (just common sense) that it would make the jump to, antelope, cows, sheep, domestic goats, before it makes the jump to humans. Pronghorn are extremely prevalent in the worst CWD hot-spots in WY and they aren't getting it.

Also as mentioned above. Any wild game processor that processes wild game in CWD hot beds, has a facility that is contaminated with prions. Many of these facilities in WY and MT process domestic meat for retail as well as wild game during hunting seasons. None of these facilities are soaking 100% of their equipment in the appropriate bleach solution to kill prions. Therefore, the prions are regularly consumed by people eating domestic beef, and pork purchased at grocery stores or locally, and no one is getting CJD or CWD.

While I dont believe transmission to humans is likely, I personally test all my animals before serving it to my family. Even animals killed in places with no reported cases of CWD. Game and Fish wants the samples, and I want to know I'm not feeding my kids the first CWD possitive animal killed in that unit.

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[Reburn]

retropharyngeal lymphnodes

Nodes is a by far second rate test compared to brain stem. While they have postulated that node can produce false positives they know they can produce false negatives. While the live tests have been approved for state game agencies in farmed cervidae it is accepted that a false negative can slip through. Thats why certification to be CWD free has to occur over several tests. Seems like most states have settled on 3 rounds. The only foolproof way is a cross section of brain stem.

 

[chindits]

How can the source article's conclusion mean anything when the text asserts, without evidence, a bunch of unproven speculation? It's a house built on a non-existent foundation.

Are any of the following points wrong?:

1. No actual evidence that they ate CWD infected deer meat
2. Author is a medical student with little to no experience in actual research (I looked at his publication record)
3. CWD has never been proven to transmit to humans
4. There are other Michigan CJD clusters just within the last few years, are they all eating CWD infected meat?

We have no evidence the two people even ate CWD-infected deer meat at all. If we have no evidence of that, then everything past that is pure conjecture. Calling that out isn't being mean, it's holding them accountable.

Here's someone sharing what Michigan's big game biologist said about the article. He's more diplomatic than me about it but he basically says the same thing.

Is CWD the Imminent Doom for Hunting?

If the story in the link below proves true, I guess it was just a matter of time. I've always been on the fence about what I would do with the meat if I had a deer test positive for CWD. I've always been reluctant to say I'd throw the meat away as there has never been a case of it hopping from...

rokslide.com

The text doesn’t assert anything

 

[grfox92]

Nodes is a by far second rate test compared to brain stem. While they have postulated that node can produce false positives they know they can produce false negatives. While the live tests have been approved for state game agencies in farmed cervidae it is accepted that a false negative can slip through. Thats why certification to be CWD free has to occur over several tests. Seems like most states have settled on 3 rounds. The only foolproof way is a cross section of brain stem.

At what rate can a false negative come through? Would a false negative only present if the animal recently contracted the illness and doesn't have a plethora of prions? Or is the test faulty in a way even a sick animal can throw a false negative?

Not sure you know the answers, just asking for discussions sake. I know WY G and F claim 99.98 percent accurate (or something along those lines). So is it a .02% chance of a false negative?

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[long hunter]

There’s a article just released today concerning this its on the outdoor life web site.

 

[grfox92]

The text doesn’t assert anything

What is the purpose of the paper if it isn't asserting something?

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[Fordguy]

At what rate can a false negative come through? Would a false negative only present if the animal recently contracted the illness and doesn't have a plethora of prions? Or is the test faulty in a way even a sick animal can throw a false negative?

Not sure you know the answers, just asking for discussions sake. I know WY G and F claim 99.98 percent accurate (or something along those lines). So is it a .02% chance of a false negative?

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This is the way that it was presented to me when I discussed it with the lab. It's the reason why your lymph node test results don't say "negative" the results say not detected.

 

[grfox92]

This is the way that it was presented to me when I discussed it with the lab. It's the reason why your lymph node test results don't say "negative" the results say not detected.

Correct, because they can't claim 100% accuracy. If the failure rate of the test is in fact .02%, for me that's as good as 100%.

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[JohnJohnson]

The text doesn’t assert anything

"This study presents a cluster of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) cases after exposure to chronic wasting disease (CWD)-infected deer"

That's from the abstract. We have no proof they were exposed to CWD-infected deer. Is that not an assertion?

 

[voidclimber]

Hmmm, click bait....

 

[Fordguy]

Correct, because they can't claim 100% accuracy. If the failure rate of the test is in fact .02%, for me that's as good as 100%.

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It's definitely better than no test at all.