Custom Dial Opinions - Worth it?

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

If you're shooting from 0-600 yds, you're probably within a click out to 600 yds with good chrono data. If you need to shoot a prairie dog at 600 yds, the custom dial may not be the solution. If you run 8 different loads in your rifle, it may not be the solution.


Usually the guys who do the best with custom dials are ones who can chrono their rifle, but don't shoot it very often.

 

[Steve from GA]

Usually the guys who do the best with custom dials are ones who can chrono their rifle, but don't shoot it very often.

I'm probably one of these guys. Here in GA, most shots will be under 100 yards, so there's no dial twisting needed. I will only be taking 100-400 yard type shots twice a year during out west hunts (apart from my many practice shots leading up to these hunts). I haven't ordered my CDS turret yet, but I do plan to chrono my ammo when I do to get the best possible results.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

3.8” off in either direction of a 1moa shot cone could be the difference between a long track job and a dead animal. That’s not even factoring in wind or shooter error. I’d want to be precise as I possibly could with the variable I can easily account for, and that bullet drop.

That's 3.8" off in his range from 4000 to 10000 ft. You get it cut where it's 1.8" from either end (probably 6500 ft).

At 600 yds, that's 1/4 MOA, at the extreme edges of elevation. You can always use the thing between your ears and add a click if you're at 4000 ft elevation or subtract one at 10000 ft.

It is not as precise or accurate as dialing true corrections in mils or minutes for your current environmental conditions, and the inaccuracy cone gets bigger the further your shot is. However, it will consistently get you a correct enough correction to take a shot out to 500 yds, and depending on the cartridge, 600 yds.

By the way, there is nothing stopping anyone from having multiple cams cut for different elevations or conditions. I personally shoot in mils on my rifles for consistency, but there's nothing wrong with a custom dial as long as you understand what it will and won't do.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Custom dials are relatively cheap, why not make 2-3. One for your home range and then one for your most likely spot. Most guys hunt the same spot every year. Then maybe another depending on your hunting. Then you have all of it covered.

 

[Wrench]

Up drafts, down drafts, environmental inputs, temp sensitivityof powder....etc.... if you think making hits at long TOF is as simple as calling Leopold with your velocity, bc and elevation......

You're way wrong.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

Up drafts, down drafts, environmental inputs, temp sensitivityof powder....etc.... if you think making hits at long TOF is as simple as calling Leopold with your velocity, bc and elevation......

You're way wrong.

If you're shooting from a mountain top, over a chasm with 20 mph updrafts, using a temp sensitive powder, at a 500 plus yd distant target, a custom cam may be inadequate for you.

If you're in a realistic hunting situation, calling Leupold and giving them an elevation, sight height, mv, and bc is going to pretty much take care of it...

 

[Wrench]

Do what you want....but know your limitations. Know that by not being able to extrapolate what I mentioned as a bare minimum you're cheating yourself.

Most guys will not do the work to be accurate. They won't validate velocity, they won't validate bc, they won't validate scope values.....etc.

You can impose a 5-600 yard limit and be minute of elk with your generic info.....or you could shoot some bullets, record some data and be 10× more accurate.

Shit changes fast beyond 5-600.

It takes me about 3 seconds to range, do the math and input scope corrections. If I don't have 3 seconds, I don't have business on the booger hook.

The difference is that my bullet lands where I expect it to vs where I hope it goes.

 

[Lawnboi]

That's 3.8" off in his range from 4000 to 10000 ft. You get it cut where it's 1.8" from either end (probably 6500 ft).

At 600 yds, that's 1/4 MOA, at the extreme edges of elevation. You can always use the thing between your ears and add a click if you're at 4000 ft elevation or subtract one at 10000 ft.

It is not as precise or accurate as dialing true corrections in mils or minutes for your current environmental conditions, and the inaccuracy cone gets bigger the further your shot is. However, it will consistently get you a correct enough correction to take a shot out to 500 yds, and depending on the cartridge, 600 yds.

By the way, there is nothing stopping anyone from having multiple cams cut for different elevations or conditions. I personally shoot in mils on my rifles for consistency, but there's nothing wrong with a custom dial as long as you understand what it will and won't do.

^ I’d repeat but pretty much what wrench said...

I watch people all year at the range who can’t hit a 10” plate at 500 with their made up numbers or numbers off the box and wonder what the heck is wrong. If your not going to do the work I don’t think it’s worth pulling the trigger at that range.

I like knowing where my bullet is going to hit.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

Do what you want....but know your limitations. Know that by not being able to extrapolate what I mentioned as a bare minimum you're cheating yourself.

Most guys will not do the work to be accurate. They won't validate velocity, they won't validate bc, they won't validate scope values.....etc.

You can impose a 5-600 yard limit and be minute of elk with your generic info.....or you could shoot some bullets, record some data and be 10× more accurate.

Shit changes fast beyond 5-600.

It takes me about 3 seconds to range, do the math and input scope corrections. If I don't have 3 seconds, I don't have business on the booger hook.

The difference is that my bullet lands where I expect it to vs where I hope it goes.

I don't believe that I've discussed pulling a velocity off of a box. If you chrono your rifle for your load, use a manufacturer's BC, and need minute of kill zone accuracy to 5-600 yds, then a custom dial is not going to be your limiting factor.

Yes, things change quickly past 600 yds, but it doesn't really matter, because even though the numbers will frequently go higher than that on a custom cam, those aren't really the distances they are intended to correct for. You're talking about Bob, and custom rifle turrets are designed for John.

Bob owns a Kestrel, and shoots PRS competitions. Bob handloads every round he shoots, puts his data in a log book, and runs 0.1 gr ladder tests on every load he develops for velocity and group size. If he could run 0.001 gr ladder tests, he would. Bob carries a compass with him at all times so that he can take into account the effect of the rotation of the Earth on the round he's shooting.

John has about 10 rifles, and he shoots them on average once every other year. John buys 5 boxes of ammo when he buys a new rifle, and those boxes will probably last his entire life. John may borrow a chronograph from a friend at the range to get his data. John has a lot of experience shooting a 200 yd zero out to 250 yds, but would like to be able to stretch to 500 yds, and have some idea of what his drop is at 600. John needs to hit a 16" kill zone on an Elk.

Custom cams are fine for John. They will do everything he needs them to do. Custom cams are wholly inappropriate for Bob, and he will be completely dissatisfied with them, and tell everyone he knows about how bad they are.

 

[Lawnboi]

I don't believe that I've discussed pulling a velocity off of a box. If you chrono your rifle for your load, use a manufacturer's BC, and need minute of kill zone accuracy to 5-600 yds, then a custom dial is not going to be your limiting factor.

Yes, things change quickly past 600 yds, but it doesn't really matter, because even though the numbers will frequently go higher than that on a custom cam, those aren't really the distances they are intended to correct for. You're talking about Bob, and custom rifle turrets are designed for John.

Bob owns a Kestrel, and shoots PRS competitions. Bob handloads every round he shoots, puts his data in a log book, and runs 0.1 gr ladder tests on every load he develops for velocity and group size. If he could run 0.001 gr ladder tests, he would. Bob carries a compass with him at all times so that he can take into account the effect of the rotation of the Earth on the round he's shooting.

John has about 10 rifles, and he shoots them on average once every other year. John buys 5 boxes of ammo when he buys a new rifle, and those boxes will probably last his entire life. John may borrow a chronograph from a friend at the range to get his data. John has a lot of experience shooting a 200 yd zero out to 250 yds, but would like to be able to stretch to 500 yds, and have some idea of what his drop is at 600. John needs to hit a 16" kill zone on an Elk.

Custom cams are fine for John. They will do everything he needs them to do. Custom cams are wholly inappropriate for Bob, and he will be completely dissatisfied with them, and tell everyone he knows about how bad they are.

Dosnt sound like John should be flinging lead at animals at 600 yards. Just my opinion though.

I feel Iv shot enough at 5-600 yards to know how easy it is to mess up. Your doing the animal a disservice by taking a short cut when a little more knowledge and understanding is going to get you a more precise shot. Yea an elk has a big kill zone, b what if we are hunting deer, or antelope. It’s stupid easy for a few variables to stack and to miss a 2moa target at 500 yards.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

Dosnt sound like John should be flinging lead at animals at 600 yards. Just my opinion though.

I feel Iv shot enough at 5-600 yards to know how easy it is to mess up. Your doing the animal a disservice by taking a short cut when a little more knowledge and understanding is going to get you a more precise shot. Yea an elk has a big kill zone, b what if we are hunting deer, or antelope. It’s stupid easy for a few variables to stack and to miss a 2moa target at 500 yards.

John probably should get closer than 600 yds anyway, but like I said, the data on the cam will probably not be his limiting factor.

 

[Lawnboi]

John probably should get closer than 600 yds anyway, but like I said, the data on the cam will probably not be his limiting factor.

I can play the what if game too though. Let’s take a 500 yard shot, John chronod his rifle, and it shoots dead on the box, all other data is good and zero is absolutely perfect. His rifle shoots 1moa on command, and he is a perfect shot. His rifle has a 5” cone, and his leupold cds he got cut 3 years ago says his bullet will drop 49.8” at 6500 ft with 50* and 50% humidity. Today John is shooting an elk at 10000ft at 75 degrees in the sun. 5mph right to left wind, his turret was cut for zero. The corrected drop for the above variable is now 45.6. He aimed center of the elk so he has 8” to work with up or down. His shot is at the absolute worst part of his 1moa on demand cone. 2.5” high at 500. The difference in drop is almost 7”. Now he is at the top of that 16” target, barely on it. Idk about you but I don’t want to take a 500 yard shot knowing I’m automatically going to hit at the very edge of the kill zone. This is just a quick check on Hornady factory ammo on their free 4dof app.

That’s a perfect scenario, now take zero variation. Velocity variation from temp, cause even temp insensitive powder will cause a little change, or lot to lot change in the factory ammo. Not to mention any shooter error. Scope tracking error. Things start stacking up. Even without any of those you just shot over that buck at 500.

 

[Antares]

I appreciate all the conversation guys, but this wasn't supposed to be a long range hunting ethics thread. Maybe we're focusing too much on the extreme end of my example (600 yards). I have never shot an animal over 350 yards. I understand I have no business taking an 837 yard shot just because I can come up with a ballistic solution for it. That said, I know my equipment and I can stay on a 10" plate at 500 yards, but that's beside the point.

Several of the above examples assume that the shooter is making no effort to account for known changes in environmentals (between what the turret is cut for and the actual field conditions). That would be negligent. I'm not suggesting that a custom turret is a substitution for thinking.

Ethics aside, I do think it's possible to get 500-600 yard first round hits without pulling out your Kestrel and your phone for every shot. This is where experience, practice, and good DOPE cards come in.

Anywho...Like I said, I've got 2 Leupold CDS coupons that I've been sitting on and I was just wondering if anyone found custom turrets to be a significant improvement in convenience over consulting your DOPE cards. I'm just going to get one cut and decide for myself. Cheers!

 

[Lawnboi]

Not worried about ethics, or hurt feelings. Good conversation. I just think the cds systems out there are pointless. The whole point of the cds system is to not have to think.

I also agree you don’t need a kestrel or app or any other tools to make first round hits on a 500 yard 10” target. You just need to know your gun and know your conditions, and sounds like you do know that. But that dosnt negate that I think the cds systems out there are a half ass way to make something difficult even more so.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[SomeJackassOnAForum]

I can play the what if game too though. Let’s take a 500 yard shot, John chronod his rifle, and it shoots dead on the box, all other data is good and zero is absolutely perfect. His rifle shoots 1moa on command, and he is a perfect shot. His rifle has a 5” cone, and his leupold cds he got cut 3 years ago says his bullet will drop 49.8” at 6500 ft with 50* and 50% humidity. Today John is shooting an elk at 10000ft at 75 degrees in the sun. 5mph right to left wind, his turret was cut for zero. The corrected drop for the above variable is now 45.6. He aimed center of the elk so he has 8” to work with up or down. His shot is at the absolute worst part of his 1moa on demand cone. 2.5” high at 500. The difference in drop is almost 7”. Now he is at the top of that 16” target, barely on it. Idk about you but I don’t want to take a 500 yard shot knowing I’m automatically going to hit at the very edge of the kill zone. This is just a quick check on Hornady factory ammo on their free 4dof app.

That’s a perfect scenario, now take zero variation. Velocity variation from temp, cause even temp insensitive powder will cause a little change, or lot to lot change in the factory ammo. Not to mention any shooter error. Scope tracking error. Things start stacking up. Even without any of those you just shot over that buck at 500.

Even with 3/5 of a mile of elevation gain and a 25 degree temperature shift, he's still inside the kill zone on the most extreme potentially bad spot of his 1 Minute accuracy cone at 500 yds. That's actually pretty illustrative of exactly why these things are popular.

There's nothing stopping him from "dialing one less click". and being off by 3" from center to start instead of 4.2 to scoot in tighter to his actual desired POI, either. (That was the between the ears segment I referenced earlier) There's also nothing to stop him from getting multiple cams cut so that he doesn't have as much POI deviation from the elevation.

It all comes down to, "what is an acceptable level of inaccuracy to you?". For "John", the cam is going to be well within his tolerances for the distances he's going to shoot, and he can add or subtract a click over a typical hunting distance as appropriate to account for elevation differences. Like I said, Bob will be incredibly dissatisfied, John will be elated. The closer you are to Bob, the less worth it the cam will be for you, with the inverse being true for John.

 

[Lawnboi]

Even with 3/5 of a mile of elevation gain and a 25 degree temperature shift, he's still inside the kill zone on the most extreme potentially bad spot of his 1 Minute accuracy cone at 500 yds. That's actually pretty illustrative of exactly why these things are popular.

There's nothing stopping him from "dialing one less click". and being off by 3" from center to start instead of 4.2 to scoot in tighter to his actual desired POI, either. (That was the between the ears segment I referenced earlier) There's also nothing to stop him from getting multiple cams cut so that he doesn't have as much POI deviation from the elevation.

It all comes down to, "what is an acceptable level of inaccuracy to you?". For "John", the cam is going to be well within his tolerances for the distances he's going to shoot, and he can add or subtract a click over a typical hunting distance as appropriate to account for elevation differences. Like I said, Bob will be incredibly dissatisfied, John will be elated. The closer you are to Bob, the less worth it the cam will be for you, with the inverse being true for John.

I give up. Iv illustrated a dang near perfect scenario with a perfect shooter and everything halved like you said above and it went to show that you could potentially put a round 7 inches high by changing only a couple variables.... on a 500 yard chip shot, as some make it sound. I didn’t even touch an extreme in my example. If this is acceptable to someone idk what else to say.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

So to recap...

1) A custom “etched” turret is bad.
2) A cheat sheet of any kind is ok.
3) You have to run a portable weather station in order to reliably make a shot. All other methods are a crapshoot

All can work and work well for most hunters if they put in the proper effort and understand the potential shortcomings.

 

[Lawnboi]

So to recap...

1) A custom “etched” turret is a gimmick
2) A cheat sheet of any kind is ok.
3) You have to run a portable weather station in order to reliably make a shot. All other methods are a crapshoot

All can work and work well for most hunters if they put in the proper effort and understand the

Fixed it.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Fixed it.

So if you go hunting at 10k feet with 40 degrees outside temp and you have a etched turret for 10k feet and 40 degrees with a verified MV, how is it a gimmick?

 

[Lawnboi]

So if you go hunting at 10k feet with 40 degrees outside temp and you have a etched turret for 10k feet and 40 degrees with a verified MV, how is it a gimmick?

Variables are constantly changing. Your etched turret is not. Dialing 8 minutes on a scope and dialing to your 400 yard mark takes the same number of clicks and time. One is adaptable, one is not. It’s a waste, and takes away from the adaptability of a scope. I guess you can think about it and count clicks to change off your etched turret if it’s different, but then why not just run a moa based turret and skip the brain game. I want to make the best shot I can at 4,5,600 yards. It’s too easy to mess a shot at that range up. I want as many variables I can control in my favor.