Covid got me good

[KitsapDan]

While this is most certainly true, I'm failing to see your point. Are you saying that everyone can just eat well and be fit, and then we can cast aside modern medicine?

What does your point of view mean for an infant? You can't crossfit straight out of the womb, can you? Does that mean infants and children shouldn't receive Hepatitis B, DTaP, Tdap, IPV, MMR, and Varicella vaccinations? Should we plunge our society back into the dark ages of infant mortality rates now that we have guidelines on diet and exercise?

Should a cancer patient just eat more chickpeas and do some squats, and dismiss any attempt at rad therapy, chemotherapy, or any of the myriad other forms of cancer treatment?

If I do my daily workout routine and have my chicken breast, should I not go to a trauma center if I end up in a terrible car accident? After all, just being fit and eating well should protect me, right? Who needs life-saving trauma surgery when I can plank for three minutes?

How about a soldier dying on the battlefield? Should they pass on morphine because they've rucked for months on end and are in prime physical condition? I mean they're dying anyhow, why ease their passage?

Who needs medicine? It's not like men used to die from a mere toothache!

Or are we just cherry-picking acceptable uses of modern medicine as it befits us at any given point in time?

Yes, people need to eat well and exercise, but that has nothing to with getting vaccinated. Nothing whatsoever. And the government does attempt to promote a healthy lifestyle, so I'm not sure what that last quip was meant to prove or accomplish.

Vaccines are not THE ONLY answer. Although many of you are incredibly binary in this thinking.

Ivermectin--Upon Neutral Ground

The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

zerospin.substack.com

 

[redcorn65]

*Sigh...

Yes, Sam, science and data change as we develop new information, and we adjust our policies and practices with it. That's how science works. Remember when we thought the everything revolved around earth? Yeah, we don't believe that anymore because we adapt to new information as we discover it.

We know that cigarettes cause cancer, even though they used to be recommended by physicians, yet people still smoke. But it's not because they don't believe that smoking causes cancer, it's because they don't care. There's a huge difference between apathy and outright ignorance.

Also, your examples are from heavy industry / consumer goods, not the field of medicine. The use of asbestos was completely unregulated back in the day, and we didn't realize it was harmful until years later when we correlated lung cancer rates with asbestos exposure. It wasn't something initially claimed to be safe when it really wasn't. It was just completely unregulated.

With Roundup, that's was an instance of corporate greed. They knew their product caused cancer, and hid it from the government for years. That was intentional obfuscation of known data to maintain profits and avoid lawsuits. Again, not the field of vaccine research or medicine.

Baby powder is considered a cosmetic consumer good, not medicine. Therefore, it is not handled by or approved by the FDA. It was another case of correlating data over time that lead to its contraindication. In fact, it is not the FDA or any governing body doing recalls, but the manufacturer themselves, to which the FDA responded with an advisory bulletin for consumers.

In the United States, consumer goods are not regulated or subject to safety standards before usage (like they are in Europe). In Europe, products must be proven safe before they can be used, but here in the States, we operate on the model of "use it until bad things start to happen, and then we can investigate it".

None of your examples make any sense in the context of the Covid-19 vaccination either way, because the available vaccines were tested extensively before being approved for use and we do have data proving its safety and effectiveness.

A more fair statement for you to have made would be something along the lines of "we claimed to not know that the Covid-19 vaccine was safe and effective, until it was proven to be safe and effective, and then I continued not believing so."

*Laughs in Zantac*


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KitsapDan]

*snip*

Extensively tested? We have data proving safety & effectiveness?

Ok, I’ll bite.

Put up the data.

Direct from Pfizer, Moderna, or even the FDA (which had to be sued to pry loose the actual Pfizer data).

I’ll be waiting, champ.

None of your examples make any sense in the context of the Covid-19 vaccination either way, because the available vaccines were tested extensively before being approved for use and we do have data proving its safety and effectiveness.

 

[jimh406]

I had double pneumonia from the flu and single once. Not a lot of fun, but the second time was only one, so I learned.

Get well soon.

 

[Rick M.]

Vaccines are not THE ONLY answer. Although many of you are incredibly binary in this thinking.

Ivermectin--Upon Neutral Ground

The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

zerospin.substack.com

So your "source" is the blog article of a single doctor. No research environment, no subjects, no testing, no scrutiny, and absolutely no evidence. Literally just the opinion blog of some quack doctor, who just so happens to disagree with the research of hundreds of other doctors and researchers who are experts in their fields and are involved in ongoing, heavily-scrutinized research. You must've had to land on page 90 of a Google search to find that gentleman and his blog. Kudos.

Let me (again), post my source. I will reiterate, this is peer-reviewed scientific research from the Journal of International Medicine, not some dude on a blog.

You say vaccines are not "THE ONLY answer", but with the data available, they have been proven to be the most effective "answer". So that begs the question, why choose otherwise?

Edit - One of your sources was literally from "escape1984.com" . I think that tells me everything I need to know about you and your "sources". Also, I've already posted my sources. They are extensive, up to date, and verifiable. They are from hundreds of scientists, not just one single quack. If that's not enough for you, so be it. If you want to refuse the vaccine for yourself and take your chances, go for it. But it's immoral to spread your disinformation around as fact, and it's getting people killed.

 

[Crowmangler]

While this is most certainly true, I'm failing to see your point. Are you saying that everyone can just eat well and be fit, and then we can cast aside modern medicine?

What does your point of view mean for an infant? You can't crossfit straight out of the womb, can you? Does that mean infants and children shouldn't receive Hepatitis B, DTaP, Tdap, IPV, MMR, and Varicella vaccinations? Should we plunge our society back into the dark ages of infant mortality rates now that we have guidelines on diet and exercise?

Should a cancer patient just eat more chickpeas and do some squats, and dismiss any attempt at rad therapy, chemotherapy, or any of the myriad other forms of cancer treatment?

If I do my daily workout routine and have my chicken breast, should I not go to a trauma center if I end up in a terrible car accident? After all, just being fit and eating well should protect me, right? Who needs life-saving trauma surgery when I can plank for three minutes?

How about a soldier dying on the battlefield? Should they pass on morphine because they've rucked for months on end and are in prime physical condition? I mean they're dying anyhow, why ease their passage?

Who needs medicine? It's not like men used to die from a mere toothache!

Or are we just cherry-picking acceptable uses of modern medicine as it befits us at any given point in time?

Yes, people need to eat well and exercise, but that has nothing to with getting vaccinated. Nothing whatsoever. And the government does attempt to promote a healthy lifestyle, so I'm not sure what that last quip was meant to prove or accomplish.

Holy shit dude... seriously? Where did you come up with all this?

Go ahead & get 50 shots, we don't care.

 

[Rick M.]

Holy shit dude... seriously? Where did you come up with all this?

It was a response to your post alluding to diet and exercise being all we need in modern society. You forgot to post the actual context.

Go ahead & get 50 shots, we don't care.

We? Are you more than one person? Or are you trying to appeal for support? The discussion was between the two of us. There was no "we". Speak for yourself.

 

[Sam Colt]

 

[MattB]

For starters you could stop calling it a vaccine.. At best you could call it a therapuetic... Its very inline with the Flu shot.. Don't believe me? Read the FDA submission that all the pharma's submitted

That is interesting because both the Pfizer/BioNTech press release on the EUA application submission and the FDA's review memorandum in response to that submission refer to BNT162b2 as a vaccine. It also happens to do meet the clinical definition of a vaccine, so there is that.

Pfizer and BioNTech to Submit Emergency Use Authorization Request Today to the U.S. FDA for COVID-19 Vaccine | Pfizer

In addition to today’s submission to the FDA, the companies have already initiated rolling submissions across the globe including in Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan and the U.K., and plan to submit applications immediately to other regulatory agencies around the world Based on current...

www.pfizer.com

https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download

 

[Crowmangler]

It was a response to your post alluding to diet and exercise being all we need in modern society. You forgot to post the actual context.


We? Are you more than one person? Or are you trying to appeal for support? The discussion was between the two of us. There was no "we". Speak for yourself.

Lighten up Francis..

There wasn't any reference to not using modern medicine, infants in the womb, soldiers getting shot, not getting kids the polio vaccine, trauma, cancer, etc.

"We" refers to the remaining pure bloods like myself ... and every other person who doesn't care about your personal medical history or treatments. Just like you shouldn't care about mine.

This is tedious...I'm out

 

[PMcGee]

That is interesting because both the Pfizer/BioNTech press release on the EUA application submission and the FDA's review memorandum in response to that submission refer to BNT162b2 as a vaccine. It also happens to do meet the clinical definition of a vaccine, so there is that.

Pfizer and BioNTech to Submit Emergency Use Authorization Request Today to the U.S. FDA for COVID-19 Vaccine | Pfizer

In addition to today’s submission to the FDA, the companies have already initiated rolling submissions across the globe including in Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan and the U.K., and plan to submit applications immediately to other regulatory agencies around the world Based on current...

www.pfizer.com

https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download

It was also 90 something percent effective against Covid. Obviously that’s not true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Azone]

 

[Rick M.]

Cute stuff, Sam. Another meme stripped straight from the Facebook echo chamber. Color me shocked.

Vasectomy: Medical procedure to prevent pregnancy, nearly 100% effective. Aims to prevent a single man from impregnating a female counterpart. Has nothing to do with building antibodies or defeating a virus. Sperm cannot evolve it's way through a vasectomy or develop resistance to it.

Vaccine: Drug administered to build up antibodies and resistance towards a specific virus, to give the host a higher chance of a positive outcome when exposed to the target virus. Viruses adapt incredibly quickly, and non-vaccinated hosts allow the virus to rapidly evolve, requiring more frequent alterations to the vaccine in order for it to maintain effectiveness. Therefore, mass vaccination keeps the vaccine effective for longer.

I mean... did you really read that meme and think "gotcha!!"? Have we abandoned the most rudimentary levels of critical thinking?

 

[MattB]

I used CNN because your original point was that liberal media outlets (and/or the government) didn't report on the fact that physically active people at a healthy bodyweight had a much lower risk of severe illness. I used CNN in an earlier post to respond to someone suggesting the same thing about vaccine complications.

It wouldn't have made as much sense to use stories from a conservative news outlet to make those points.

Not to mention that CNN is not the entity that performed or funded the studies/research being reported on. One could very likely find articles by Fox reporting on some of the same studies/research. I guess dismssing the underlying studies/research simply because they were reported on by a left-leaning publication is easier than actually reading about and understanding them.

 

[KitsapDan]

So your "source" is the blog article of a single doctor. No research environment, no subjects, no testing, no scrutiny, and absolutely no evidence. Literally just the opinion blog of some quack doctor, who just so happens to disagree with the research of hundreds of other doctors and researchers who are experts in their fields and are involved in ongoing, heavily-scrutinized research. You must've had to land on page 90 of a Google search to find that gentleman and his blog. Kudos.

Let me (again), post my source. I will reiterate, this is peer-reviewed scientific research from the Journal of International Medicine, not some dude on a blog.

You say vaccines are not "THE ONLY" answer, but with the data available, they have been proven to be the most effective "answer". So that begs the question, why choose otherwise?

Edit - One of your sources was literally from "escape1984.com" . I think that tells me everything I need to know about you and your "sources". Also, I've already posted my sources. They are extensive, up to date, and verifiable. They are from hundreds of scientists, not just one single quack. If that's not enough for you, so be it. If you want to refuse the vaccine for yourself and take your chances, go for it. But it's immoral to spread your disinformation around as fact, and it's getting people killed.

So your "source" is the blog article of a single doctor. No research environment, no subjects, no testing, no scrutiny, and absolutely no evidence. Literally just the opinion blog of some quack doctor, who just so happens to disagree with the research of hundreds of other doctors and researchers who are experts in their fields and are involved in ongoing, heavily-scrutinized research. You must've had to land on page 90 of a Google search to find that gentleman and his blog. Kudos.

Let me (again), post my source. I will reiterate, this is peer-reviewed scientific research from the Journal of International Medicine, not some dude on a blog.

You say vaccines are not "THE ONLY" answer, but with the data available, they have been proven to be the most effective "answer". So that begs the question, why choose otherwise?

Edit - One of your sources was literally from "escape1984.com" . I think that tells me everything I need to know about you and your "sources". Also, I've already posted my sources. They are extensive, up to date, and verifiable. They are from hundreds of scientists, not just one single quack. If that's not enough for you, so be it. If you want to refuse the vaccine for yourself and take your chances, go for it. But it's immoral to spread your disinformation around as fact, and it's getting people killed.

1) I’ve already addressed your “source”.

2) you claim we have data/studies/whatever that prove the vax is “safe & effective”. You you don’t put up this safety & efficacy data.

Put. It. Up.

 

[Hoodie]

Have we abandoned the most rudimentary levels of critical thinking?

Yes.

 

[Rick M.]

Lighten up Francis..

With most other discussions, I'd be full of levity. But people are dying, and if you expect to just drop in with the opinion that diet and exercise are the only necessities for health, be prepared to extrapolate on it or simply keep it to yourself.

There wasn't any reference to not using modern medicine, infants in the womb, soldiers getting shot, not getting kids the polio vaccine, trauma, cancer, etc.

You alluded to health and exercise being all that society has ever needed throughout all of history. If you weren't making the argument that we don't need vaccines or medicine, then you were truly pissing upstream with a nonsensical comment.

"We" refers to the remaining pure bloods like myself ... and every other person who doesn't care about your personal medical history or treatments. Just like you shouldn't care about mine.

"Pure bloods"?
There it is. Tells me everything I need to know. Goodbye.

 

[Hoodie]

Not to mention that CNN is not the entity that performed or funded the studies/research being reported on. One could very likely find articles by Fox reporting on some of the same studies/research. I guess dismssing the underlying studies/research simply because they were reported on by a left-leaning publication is easier than actually reading about and understanding them.

Yeah, this is pretty much how that went:

Guy: Well how come the liberal media and the government don't warn people about the dangers of fatness?!?!?

Me: Posts news stories from liberal media outlets highlighting the dangers of fatness

Guy: Well yeah, but the fact that you used liberal media to prove your point tells me all I need to know about you.


I can't facepalm any harder. I've hit my limit.

 

[MattB]

It was also 90 something percent effective against Covid. Obviously that’s not true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

It absolutely is true for the original COVID strain on which the clinincal trials were performed.

What is untrue is the notion that there is just "COVID". The virus mutated significantly a number of times and some of the variants diminished the effectiveness of the vaccines in terms of both their primary endpoint (decrease the incidence of severe disease and death), but also the degree of immunity they conferred against becoming infected with the original strain and Alpha variant. Despite that, the vaccines continued to be highly effective in acheiving their stated purpose which was to reduce severe disease and death. Even under Omicron the unvaccinated were far more likely to become infected or die than the vaccinated.

Good News: Full Vaccination Protects Against Omicron Hospitalization And Death

Three doses provide some protection from infection, but that protection wanes over four to six months to a very low level. The good news is that two or three doses of currently-available vaccines provide excellent protection against severe disease leading to hospitalization or death.

www.forbes.com

 

[Rick M.]

1) I’ve already addressed your “source”.

2) you claim we have data/studies/whatever that prove the vax is “safe & effective”. You you don’t put up this safety & efficacy data.

Put. It. Up.

I have put it up, the onus is on you to read and comprehend it. I can't help you in that department. If you bothered to look at any of them, you would have found all the data you need to reverse your stance regarding the vaccine. Would you like additional data? At this point, I have a feeling I could bring down Jesus himself to show you the data, and you'd still weasel out of acknowledging its existence.
Here

I've backed literally everything I've said, and I'm not engaging with you further. Everything you have claimed is false, all of your data sources are biased at a minimum, and most are downright laughable. Like I said, feel free to be anti-vax, anti-science, anti-logic, or anti-whatever-makes-you-feel-cool, but stop spreading disinformation. I'm convinced that you are a troll, and I will no longer respond to you. Anything you need is on page 5.

Best of luck "escaping 1984", by the way!