Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[Duh]

@satchamo I made a similar switch this year, except I came from a 300 win mag shooting at 212 eldx.

My only thing was I stayed with a 24 inch barrel to keep speed. I have an Ultra 9 attached too so I’m packing a lodge pole around haha. I also shot off a Leofoto tripod and here’s my experience this year on a herd bull.

6 creed with a 108 ELDM going 3025fps. Shot this heard bull at 486 yards. Shot around 5900 ft in elevation. First shot was into the upper rear portion of the front quarter. Impact velocity around 2383fps. That shot destroyed the lungs and the bull ran about 50 yards before stopping at a little over 500 yards.

Once he stopped I put two more into him fast. The 2nd shot was a little lower (was targeting the heart) and the 3rd shot I decided to put it right on top of the upper shoulder again. He was just standing there dying on his feet but I always shoot until they’re down. These shots were on the opposite side of the body. That 3rd shot anchored him.

I really don’t think I needed the two follow up shots but it’s so freaking easy to do with a light recoiling 6 creed off the Leofoto. This was all at last light and I spotted every single impact, never lost the bull in my scope, and was shooting off my knees in the tall brush. That wouldn’t have happened with my 300 win mag and I’ve also had my fair share of rodeos with 30 cals.

The lungs and heart were destroyed inside and those “light” 108s weren’t affected by the scapula at all.


It’s been said here already but some people like to theorize about energy, bullet diameter, and gel tests. Some of us just like to go out and kill stuff to see for ourselves.

 

[satchamo]

It was a serious question. You'd be surprised on how many guys actually do what you joked about and go shoot at animals well beyond their capabilities.

I just ask because sometimes people rush to conclusions after rodeos like yours.

If you couldn't spot your shots and follow up at 700+,yards, there is a possibility that there is something else wrong in the system besides just too much recoil. Yes a lighter recoiling cartridge would have helped but if you had practiced follow up shots off your tripod beforehand, then there was a breakdown somewhere else that could be addressed before just throwing the gun under the bus. Spotting shots at 700 and re-engaging with a 7prc at 10x zoom isn't extremely hard off a tripod. But it could be if you aren't ready for it.

And I'm not saying a lighter recoiling gun is a bad idea at all. I like them and use them. But maybe you had that scope zoomed in too much, or you could train more in dynamic situations. Dropping to a 6cm isn't magic and it won't solve all the rodeos. Training with your system under pressure with a lighter recoiling rifle might.

And don't take this as anything other than it is. I'm not no Internet expert, I just have noticed a huge difference in my personal shooting capabilities under stress, after implementing goal oriented training. I'm not doggin on you.

All good - thanks for the respectful response. I just assumed I was about to get jumped and got defensive. I’m a bit sensitive about the situation still

 

[huntnful]

Thanks for being willing to share, most folks aren't keen to do so.

I think your 7 PRC is a good long range elk gun with the right bullet in general, but your real life situation shows a few things that we see time and time again...

1. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to more misses when compared to 6mm and below. I've been preaching and teaching this long before Rokslide was even a website.

2. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to slower target re-acquisition when a second shot may be needed. Paired with the fact that most almost never practice racking another and staying on target.

3. A heavier recoiling chambering is not a "guarantee" for a quicker time to death.

4. Shit happens when you shoot long range. 712 yards is a very long shot despite that some on the internet may call it a "chip shot".

Combining the long range shot, adrenalin, trying to get a shot off "in time", and heavier recoiling chambering/lightweight gun, this is where I see "goat rodeos" most often. Please don't misunderstand that this "never happens" with 6mm and below cartridges. This could have easily happened with a ^ Creedmoor as well at 712 yards.

The point is trying to eliminate as many errors and variables within the shot process to kill better. (Hint: larger diameter bullet is almost never the answer here on an 7.5-9 lb mountain rifle).

I think dropping down to a 6 Creedmoor shooting 108 ELDMS and training with that rifle year round (not a on a bench) will be a good move for you. If you're an AZ resident and have time to shoot I'd be happy to let you shoot some of my rifles and run through some shooting drills before you make a change.

It was a serious question. You'd be surprised on how many guys actually do what you joked about and go shoot at animals well beyond their capabilities.

I just ask because sometimes people rush to conclusions after rodeos like yours.

If you couldn't spot your shots and follow up at 700+,yards, there is a possibility that there is something else wrong in the system besides just too much recoil. Yes a lighter recoiling cartridge would have helped but if you had practiced follow up shots off your tripod beforehand, then there was a breakdown somewhere else that could be addressed before just throwing the gun under the bus. Spotting shots at 700 and re-engaging with a 7prc at 10x zoom isn't extremely hard off a tripod. But it could be if you aren't ready for it.

And I'm not saying a lighter recoiling gun is a bad idea at all. I like them and use them. But maybe you had that scope zoomed in too much, or you could train more in dynamic situations. Dropping to a 6cm isn't magic and it won't solve all the rodeos. Training with your system under pressure with a lighter recoiling rifle might.

And don't take this as anything other than it is. I'm not no Internet expert, I just have noticed a huge difference in my personal shooting capabilities under stress, after implementing goal oriented training. I'm not doggin on you.

This is the best info and perspectives I’ve seen in relation to this topic. Read what these dudes wrote a couple of times over for sure.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I’m chalking it up to nerves but with any miss I’m tearing down the entire hunt and trying to find where I can improve and not make the same mistake twice. If I had more time for follow ups but I couldn’t spot my misses, my spotter was calling them but I was in such disarray after the shot I don’t know what I was hearing between ranging, dialing and trying to pick him up.

Don't take this as a dig, but based on what you posted above it doesn't sound like an equipment issue. If your spotter was calling the shots and you didn't know what you were hearing that's either poor communication or pure adrenaline causing disarray. You're not going to buy your way out of that except with practice and repetition to build a solid process when it comes to killing.

Was the spotter someone you're familiar with and shot alot with?

 

[Hnthrdr]

So many questions.

Me thinks this was a joke ( not the whole post, but the shooting a 1/2 box on the hood and calling it good)… me also thinks 95% of us shoot further than we should because we lean far too heavily on equipment and not heavily enough on proper training and practice… guilty of this as well. I’ll shoot 30-50 arrows for every bullet I send down range in a year… mostly because of time constraints and access, and some cost.

 

[TaperPin]

I zoned out after hearing the distance, how the dedicated spotter couldn’t spot a 7mm bullet, and the solution to shot spotting and actually hitting is going to a 6mm at 800 yards.

There’s so much wrong with unrealistic expectations on multiple levels that are reinforced by guys thinking minimal bullet, minimal velocity, maximum range should equal easy shot - for that reason I’m out.

I’m glad the op made the thread - if every shooter explained how their long range shots failed it would be better to help guide the conversation away from marginal killing systems, to something more reliable.

 

[eric1115]

I put about a half a box through it on the hood of my truck a week before leaving

 

[satchamo]

I zoned out after hearing the distance, how the dedicated spotter couldn’t spot a 7mm bullet, and the solution to shot spotting and actually hitting is going to a 6mm at 800 yards.

There’s so much wrong with unrealistic expectations on multiple levels that are reinforced by guys thinking minimal bullet, minimal velocity, maximum range should equal easy shot - for that reason I’m out.

I’m glad the op made the thread - if every shooter explained how their long range shots failed it would be better to help guide the conversation away from marginal killing systems, to something more reliable.

I’m certainly not claiming to not have made other mistakes or lacked in other areas but I’ve struggled with flinch for sometime and had been considering this change for a long time. Add that to my inability to spot my hits - I’d like to drop back, move to a lighter caliber, shoot and train more to improve.

I think some of you think I’m pinning it all on the gun and that is 1000% not the case

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

What factory 6.5 PRC bullet out of an 18-20" barrel offers more killing ability than the 108 ELDM out of an 18-20" 6CM barrel?

I was commenting on options with less recoil that utilized his current magnum bolt face. Nothing specifically against the 6cm itself.

 

[TaperPin]

I’m certainly not claiming to not have made other mistakes or lacked in other areas but I’ve struggled with flinch for sometime and had been considering this change for a long time. Add that to my inability to spot my hits - I’d like to drop back, move to a lighter caliber, shoot and train more to improve. It’s not just me wanting another gun for no reason…

That’s cool - a smaller rifle will be a lot more fun to shoot. The 6mm makes sense to have available for many reasons - a flinch is pretty serious, but also a normal part of shooting that comes and goes for many of us - shooting a 6mm will make a world of difference in letting you shoot better, but also it has enough pop to help desensitize a person’s brain to recoil if you decide to keep using the 7mm.

 

[eoperator]

My 6CM runs the 115 Berger and I get 2952 FPS out of a Bart #13 carbon 24" bbl.

I wouldn't take that rifle elk hunting either, the thought of carrying a #13 bart makes my back ache.

 

[Article 4]

I wouldn't take that rifle elk hunting either, the thought of carrying a #13 bart makes my back ache.

Haha. agree from a caliber perspective but a carbon #13 bart is nearly perfect in my eyes.

 

[Castle Rock]

I zoned out after hearing the distance,

I don’t think so if you are responding 3 pages later

 

[SloppyJ]

Maybe I'm stepping on mine hard but I'm close to 2900fps out of an 18" 6cm shooting 108 Bergers.

Tough call but if you're prioritizing spotting shots easier, it's the way to roll for sure. You could also restock and reconfigure the 7prc but it will still be hard to spot.

 

[lintond]

Thanks for being willing to share, most folks aren't keen to do so.

I think your 7 PRC is a good long range elk gun with the right bullet in general, but your real life situation shows a few things that we see time and time again...

1. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to more misses when compared to 6mm and below. I've been preaching and teaching this long before Rokslide was even a website.

2. A heavier recoiling chambering in a light weight mountain gun leads to slower target re-acquisition when a second shot may be needed. Paired with the fact that most almost never practice racking another and staying on target.

3. A heavier recoiling chambering is not a "guarantee" for a quicker time to death.

4. Shit happens when you shoot long range. 712 yards is a very long shot despite that some on the internet may call it a "chip shot".

Combining the long range shot, adrenalin, trying to get a shot off "in time", and heavier recoiling chambering/lightweight gun, this is where I see "goat rodeos" most often. Please don't misunderstand that this "never happens" with 6mm and below cartridges. This could have easily happened with a ^ Creedmoor as well at 712 yards.

The point is trying to eliminate as many errors and variables within the shot process to kill better. (Hint: larger diameter bullet is almost never the answer here on an 7.5-9 lb mountain rifle).

I think dropping down to a 6 Creedmoor shooting 108 ELDMS and training with that rifle year round (not a on a bench) will be a good move for you. If you're an AZ resident and have time to shoot I'd be happy to let you shoot some of my rifles and run through some shooting drills before you make a change.

This is an awesome offer right here!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stickmark]

I would also like to hear the rodeo story if you don't mind, Arizona can make for some tough shot opportunities. The amount of missed animals here because guys and gals couldn't "get proned out" is numerous.

People think "desert", "arid" and imagine that perfect bipod shot.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

People think "desert", "arid" and imagine that perfect bipod shot.

This was an actual shot position last year, steep downward angle into a canyon. Only way to make it work when the deer came through was kneeling with pack on a rock.

 

[Marshfly]

Yes sir, you will be good to go. My Tikka 6 Creed with 18" barrel, shooting factory 108 ELDMs at 5,000 DA...

At 800 yards the 108 ELDM is 1,800ish FPS. 780ish ft lbs of energy. 5.4 MIL Up. 1.3 MIL Full Value 10 MPH Wind.

I've killed multiple big game animals (elk included) with this gun from 50 yards to 760 yards. It's one thing to "theorize" on it with "advice" on the internet, and another thing to go out and actually do it. Let me know if you have any questions about the kills.

What are you seeing for MV? I am in the process of planning a 6 Creed build with a 17-18" barrel and will be using factory ELDms as well. I get almost 2900 MV when I find 1800FPS at 800 at 5000ft on Shooter. That seems really fast but would be awesome to see.

 

[Hnthrdr]

What are you seeing for MV? I am in the process of planning a 6 Creed build with a 17-18" barrel and will be using factory ELDms as well. I get almost 2900 MV when I find 1800FPS at 800 at 5000ft on Shooter. That seems really fast but would be awesome to see.

Went with 20” barrel on my first 6cm to hopefully get a few more fps from factory ammo

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What are you seeing for MV? I am in the process of planning a 6 Creed build with a 17-18" barrel and will be using factory ELDms as well. I get almost 2900 MV when I find 1800FPS at 800 at 5000ft on Shooter. That seems really fast but would be awesome to see.

2820-2850 with 8 twist 18” barrel and factory ammo. That calc above is using 2850.