Colorado Wolf Introduction is getting REAL political

[Flyjunky]

And just know that even if they do include hunting in the management plan, once the population reaches objective the anti's will start the lawsuits to delay it until the population is 3 times whatever objective is set.

And by then it will be too late.

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Bingo

 

[Hnthrdr]

Oh, you completely misunderstand. I not only give to both hunting and fishing causes outside my normal areas but I give time and donate trips as well....so don't paint so broad.

It's the attitude of those that are so condescending about tag numbers and out of state hunters complaining about tag cuts. You have to admit it's pretty comical. Help, help, help but you don't have a say in how we run our wildlife, but please send comments to help us save our wildlife for the very people who say to stay out of our business.

Your comment about anti-hunters kicking our ass can also be turned around on resident hunters telling out of staters to mind their own business, correct? Isn't that dividing hunters as well?

Don’t mean to paint you into a corner, just said my piece. I likely will never hunt a premier unit in my home state of (Co) or any western state for that matter. Heck if I get to hunt a few other states outside of Co I’ll be thrilled.

It’s been weird while I get something has to give as our game animals are limited, and it appears the appetite to hunt them is unlimited we can’t have everyone come to Co every year and still have enjoyable times hunting. I’ve seen spots I’ve hunted for years blow up in the last 2 years because of more and more hunters coming west. I see some hypocrisy in saying no stay home, but if we want hunting to be greatly reduced in Co in coming years where will all the residents, and the lions share of NR hunters go? Even in Co goes to 80/20, I think we still issue more NR tags than all the other western states combined. That means your wyo tags with begin to take 2,3,4x as long to draw same with MT, ID, NM. I’d venture to say Co is kind of the Mecca of NR hunting, even if we limit tags. Good luck hunting out west when Co tags dry up, that said I hope I’m a so wrong, and those little wolves only eat the sick and old and we have even more elk and deer… but I’ll hope in one pot and crap in the other and see what fills up first.

 

[dirtytough]

It’s been weird while I get something has to give as our game animals are limited, and it appears the appetite to hunt them is unlimited we can’t have everyone come to Co every year and still have enjoyable times hunting. I’ve seen spots I’ve hunted for years blow up in the last 2 years because of more and more hunters coming west. I see some hypocrisy in saying no stay home, but if we want hunting to be greatly reduced in Co in coming years where will all the residents, and the lions share of NR hunters go? Even in Co goes to 80/20, I think we still issue more NR tags than all the other western states combined. That means your wyo tags with begin to take 2,3,4x as long to draw same with MT, ID, NM. I’d venture to say Co is kind of the Mecca of NR hunting, even if we limit tags. Good luck hunting out west when Co tags dry up, that said I hope I’m a so wrong, and those little wolves only eat the sick and old and we have even more elk and deer… but I’ll hope in one pot and crap in the other and see what fills up first.

Yea I was typing about allocation changes, not going from otc to draw. Colorado should have went all draw years ago for elk. That right there would have limited the non res.

But the archaic, misinforming CBA keeps pushing otc.

 

[Rifleman86]

yes.

You all should listen to the latest meateater podcast. Not about wolves, but about political overreach and wildlife management.

Steve is a gnats ass away from rescinding his derision of the conspiracy theory that the Clintons support of wolf reintroduction will lead to the gov't taking yer guns.

This is why I simply do not trust orgs like BHA who exist on the backs of hunters, but are mum on gun rights.

Yeah @ODB listening to that it certainly seems to me Steve finally got red pilled. I’ve noticed him quietly stepping away from BHA which is telling.

I think he has seen the light that one side of the political spectrum is a much more clear and present danger to hunters than the other.

 

[sneaky]

Once the wolves are well established in colorado it won’t be long and you’ll have a plague of ticks, brain worms, and never before noticed habitat changes that will wreck havoc the moose, elk, and deer.

In the wilderness areas here in Idaho they blamed the decline of elk numbers on climate change. Get ready Colorado, their excuse book is already populated with tested lies.

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[Billinsd]

Releasing grizzly bears in downtown Denver or Boulder would be epic. I would vote for that. It would make for a fantastic survivor style reality show.

Start out small with Rattle snakes and Wolverines.

 

[Trackerbacker]

It's the attitude of those that are so condescending about tag numbers and out of state hunters complaining about tag cuts. You have to admit it's pretty comical. Help, help, help but you don't have a say in how we run our wildlife, but please send comments to help us save our wildlife for the very people who say to stay out of our business.

Your comment about anti-hunters kicking our ass can also be turned around on resident hunters telling out of staters to mind their own business, correct? Isn't that dividing hunters as well?

I don't think enough people read this. So I'm going to quote it.

Can we got the mods to auto-PM this to anyone with Wyoming or Montana locations?

 

[Trackerbacker]

Don’t mean to paint you into a corner, just said my piece. I likely will never hunt a premier unit in my home state of (Co) or any western state for that matter. Heck if I get to hunt a few other states outside of Co I’ll be thrilled.

It’s been weird while I get something has to give as our game animals are limited, and it appears the appetite to hunt them is unlimited we can’t have everyone come to Co every year and still have enjoyable times hunting. I’ve seen spots I’ve hunted for years blow up in the last 2 years because of more and more hunters coming west. I see some hypocrisy in saying no stay home, but if we want hunting to be greatly reduced in Co in coming years where will all the residents, and the lions share of NR hunters go? Even in Co goes to 80/20, I think we still issue more NR tags than all the other western states combined. That means your wyo tags with begin to take 2,3,4x as long to draw same with MT, ID, NM. I’d venture to say Co is kind of the Mecca of NR hunting, even if we limit tags. Good luck hunting out west when Co tags dry up, that said I hope I’m a so wrong, and those little wolves only eat the sick and old and we have even more elk and deer… but I’ll hope in one pot and crap in the other and see what fills up first.

Quite possibly, and something I suggested in another thread, perhaps the states should give more weight to NR since in many western states, NRs provide far more value than Rs.

I know...I know.....nonresidents aren't 17th generation here before me but here after the Indian residents.

 

[UPThunderbolt]

Thanks for the link and I did submit comments. It just blows my mind that no entity is holding CPW's feet to the fire about releasing on private and state land when everyone knows that the wolves will immediately travel onto surrounding public lands and have impacts, likely significant impacts. Because the nature of this action is highly controversial and likely to have significant impacts, we, as owners of the public lands, should be at least entitled to a full disclosure of the impacts (i.e., EIS) instead of short narratives of what has occurred in other States that are unlike CO. CPW stating that they don't have the resources to conduct NEPA is a lame excuse-how much would such an upfront combined NEPA and planning effort cost compared to the potential years and years of taxpayer expenditures monitoring and managing the wolf packs? A NEPA analysis that includes potential economic impacts would disclose estimated short-term and long-term costs. Usually actions initiated by the feds on federal lands are flagged by environmental stakeholders, and for an action that is highly controversial, these groups would immediately be clamoring for an EIS and preparing their protest letters. Ironic isn't it? Normally I am a big supporter of CPW's efforts, but unfortunately I suspect that they simply don't have as much say as they would like in this effort-it stinks of politics and is a huge disservice to taxpaying Coloradans (i.e., an unnecessary misuse of taxpayer $) and recreation users everywhere who use these public lands.

Folks, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I do have a fair amount of experience with the wolf issue. If I may be so bold, I would like to offer some thoughts that may help navigate this highly charged issue.

1. Recognize that the authority to manage wildlife, in any particular State, is delegated to that State by the Federal Government. Under the Federal Endangered Species Act, when the sustainability of a given species is determined to be in peril, The Feds retract management authority for that species from the States and place it upon the Endangered Species list.

2. With the exception of (I believe) Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and parts of Oregon and Washington, the wolf has been on the Endangered Species list since 1974. It is not on the list for those areas listed above because of a rider, attached to a 2011 Federal budge bill, that exempted the “Northern Rocky Mountain” population. In the rest of the contiguous US, except Minnesota, the wolf is listed as endangered or extirpated. In Minnesota it is listed as threatened.

3. For a State to get management authority back for an endangered species that occurs within their borders, they must develop a recovery and management plan, they must implement that plan and demonstrate (through monitoring) that the plan is successful. Unfortunately, very little -if any- Federal Dollars are allocated for this process.

4. There is a problem with the wording in the Federal Endangered Species Act in that removal from the list requires the species to be recovered over a significant portion (I don’t have the exact wording) of its original range.

5. The Grey Wolf was historically found across nearly the entire nation.

6. Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota all have substantially exceeded the requirements for delisting, and maintained those levels for the past 20 years. Under both the Obama and Trump administrations, The USFWS has attempted to delisted the Great Lakes wolf population at least four times. Each time they have been sued and lost for extraneous reasons, but the requirement for recovery over a significant part of the range looms large.

7. I suspect that a breeding population of wolves has been documented in Colorado. If this is true, then the agency is pretty much forced to come up with a plan to recover the population to sustainable levels.

8. Your State agency is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The only way they can gain management authority which will allow them to effectively deal with issues such as livestock depredation, pet depreciation, etc. is to develop and implement a recovery plan. With the animal listed as endangered, the only time ANYONE, including agency personnel, can legally kill a wolf is when human safety is at risk. When the animal is upgraded to Threatened, the law allows for problem animals to be removed from the population.

9. Getting angry and “blowing off” in the face of your State agency personnel will accomplish nothing. Rather, recognize what they are dealing with, read the plan, and make pertinent and concise recommendations to make it better.

10. Finally, the solution to the issue is at the Federal level. The Endangered Species Act is really a good thing, BUT it does need to be modified and modernized such that it appropriately protects and sustains our native wildlife without being used as a political tool to stymie our heritage as a hunting community.

I apologize for the long-winded post, but the only way you can impact the process is to come at it from a position of knowledge and understanding as to what is driving the system.

I hope this helps.

 

[sneaky]

Folks, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I do have a fair amount of experience with the wolf issue. If I may be so bold, I would like to offer some thoughts that may help navigate this highly charged issue.

1. Recognize that the authority to manage wildlife, in any particular State, is delegated to that State by the Federal Government. Under the Federal Endangered Species Act, when the sustainability of a given species is determined to be in peril, The Feds retract management authority for that species from the States and place it upon the Endangered Species list.

2. With the exception of (I believe) Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and parts of Oregon and Washington, the wolf has been on the Endangered Species list since 1974. It is not on the list for those areas listed above because of a rider, attached to a 2011 Federal budge bill, that exempted the “Northern Rocky Mountain” population. In the rest of the contiguous US, except Minnesota, the wolf is listed as endangered or extirpated. In Minnesota it is listed as threatened.

3. For a State to get management authority back for an endangered species that occurs within their borders, they must develop a recovery and management plan, they must implement that plan and demonstrate (through monitoring) that the plan is successful. Unfortunately, very little -if any- Federal Dollars are allocated for this process.

4. There is a problem with the wording in the Federal Endangered Species Act in that removal from the list requires the species to be recovered over a significant portion (I don’t have the exact wording) of its original range.

5. The Grey Wolf was historically found across nearly the entire nation.

6. Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota all have substantially exceeded the requirements for delisting, and maintained those levels for the past 20 years. Under both the Obama and Trump administrations, The USFWS has attempted to delisted the Great Lakes wolf population at least four times. Each time they have been sued and lost for extraneous reasons, but the requirement for recovery over a significant part of the range looms large.

7. I suspect that a breeding population of wolves has been documented in Colorado. If this is true, then the agency is pretty much forced to come up with a plan to recover the population to sustainable levels.

8. Your State agency is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The only way they can gain management authority which will allow them to effectively deal with issues such as livestock depredation, pet depreciation, etc. is to develop and implement a recovery plan. With the animal listed as endangered, the only time ANYONE, including agency personnel, can legally kill a wolf is when human safety is at risk. When the animal is upgraded to Threatened, the law allows for problem animals to be removed from the population.

9. Getting angry and “blowing off” in the face of your State agency personnel will accomplish nothing. Rather, recognize what they are dealing with, read the plan, and make pertinent and concise recommendations to make it better.

10. Finally, the solution to the issue is at the Federal level. The Endangered Species Act is really a good thing, BUT it does need to be modified and modernized such that it appropriately protects and sustains our native wildlife without being used as a political tool to stymie our heritage as a hunting community.

I apologize for the long-winded post, but the only way you can impact the process is to come at it from a position of knowledge and understanding as to what is driving the system.

I hope this helps.

Well said, but bringing facts to an emotion- based argument... are you sure you're ready for that?

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[UPThunderbolt]

Well said, but bringing facts to an emotion- based argument... are you sure you're ready for that?

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[cnelk]

The Colorado wolves are going to be released on private land so there wont be the typical Fed restrictions

 

[UPThunderbolt]

Unless the Feds have provided a some sort special exemption to Colorado (which I doubt), land ownership is irrelevant in the population recovery and management of the animals until such time as wolves are down graded to Threatened status.

There are livestock producers in Michigan and Wisconsin who certainly wish landownership was a consideration.

 

[cnelk]

Unless the Feds have provided a some sort special exemption to Colorado (which I doubt), land ownership is irrelevant in the population recovery and management of the animals until such time as wolves are down graded to Threatened status.

There are livestock producers in Michigan and Wisconsin who certainly wish landownership was a consideration.

Here ya go

 

[Szwampdonkey]

Some of us just aren't scared of predators.

Ask someone from WI how wolf reintroduction worked out.

 

[Szwampdonkey]

They banned guns in Oregon and Washington?

Also in Illinois

 

[displacedtexan]

Ask someone from WI how wolf reintroduction worked out.

I've heard conflicting opinions.

I also don't see things like most people.

 

[UPThunderbolt]

Here ya go

I’m removed from this process and can’t speak from a position of full knowledge, but here is my impression of where things are at. Colorado, as required, has developed a recovery and management plan. That plan is currently in draft form and includes potential lethal take of problem animals. They are in the public review portion of the plan. Once finalized, the plan will then be submitted to USFWS for approval.

The USFWS will likely require some changes before approving that plan. If that happens, Colorado will need to make adjustments and resubmit.

In Michigan and Wisconsin, even though both States are substantially above the agreed upon recovery goals, and have been for the better part of 20 years, killing of wolves for livestock and pet depredation is not allowed. I can’t say with 100% certainty that the same will be true in Colorado, but it would be highly unusual for the Feds to stray from that direction.

The goal of my first post was to help people understand the background on these processes and how they can best provide meaningful input. Having done that, I’m going to back out and allow others to opine on the merits of the plan.

 

[cnelk]

From the Restoration & Management Plan

"Releases will occur on state or private lands. The plan does not currently contemplate releases on Federal lands because CPW does not have the staffing or financial resources to undertake the required National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) analysis prior to any federal land management agency authorizing releases on federal lands. CPW will attempt to select release areas that are likely to promote successful wolf recolonization, while also considering the potential for livestock or human conflicts. Specific release locations will not be made public in this Plan in order to protect private landowner information and sensitive species locations, but targeted outreach will occur with potentially affected stakeholders prior to release."

 

[Oldffemt]

Pretty simple, they got off their asses, wrote up a ballot measure, got the required signatures, and got it on the ballot.

The exact process any CO hunter could have done to create a law preventing the introduction by the state. But hunters don’t do that, they sit on their thumbs till it’s too late, then bitch about it.

Uh, or we have jobs and lives and are trying to keep our heads above water financially and have to pick the fights we participate in. Meanwhile the pro-reintroduction folks are well funded by lefty orgs. As was said earlier, they other side has hate as a motivator. They hate hunting, they hate gun owners, they hate anything that doesn’t fall in line with their way of “thinking” and most of all they hate this country.
I live in nw co. Where a lot of the herds of deer, elk and antelope winter. There’s a buzz around this issue amongst the local families like I’ve never seen. The ranchers and outdoorsmen I know are pretty determined to have an impact on this ridiculous reintroduction. It just may not come in a “civilized or legal” manner. Rest assured, you try to destroy the way of life that these ranchers have held onto for generations, there will be a fight over it. I expect to see plenty of wolves get “hit by cars” and of course they’ll have a bullet hole in them to put them out of their misery.