Colorado Preference Point Focus Group

[Doc Holliday]

Do away with OTC. Make everyone burn points if they want to hunt

 

[TheGreek]

I've been invited to join a CPW focus group in a few weeks.

"Your focus group will discuss the topic of preference points. The purpose of these focus groups is to hear from resident and nonresident big game hunters about challenges and potential solutions they see with CPW’s license distribution approach and to help inform future big game season structure processes. This is one part of a multi-step process and your feedback is critical to improving the system."

I would prefer to come with solutions instead of just complaints.

In an effort to better represent all hunters (at least all well known Roksliders), I'm looking for any thoughts that I should present outside of my own little bubble. Feel free to drop some ideas here for me to bring up.

I've been invited to the same or a similar focus group.

The question I'm most interested in is this "Does CPW think point creep is the same looming issue that many hunters do?" In other words, does CPW care about point creep? Does CPW think they have a point creep problem?

My thoughts are that if CPW doesn't think it has a point creep problem, they aren't going to be concerned about doing anything to alleviate point creep.

 

[TheGreek]

Some CPW documents related to the topic.

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/LicenseDistributionFAQsOct2021.pdf

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2021/June/Item.19ppt-Allocation_June_Mtg_FINAL_06022021_Online_Katie_Lanter-DNR.pdf

CPW using the term point creep answers my first question above.

 

[ColoradoV]

I too was asked to participate in the point discussion..

Here will be my input.

Every time you hunt any species your points go to 0. Returned tag = points to 0. A,b,or c elk tag points to 0. Landowner tag if you use one points to 0.. Or as you can tell anytime you hunt points to 0. No more loop holes. The extreme overcrowding in otc goes away as you guessed it to hunt otc will take all your points….

Change Co to overly fair 85-15% split for all species.

Institute point sharing to remove points even faster.

 

[LongWayAround]

The only argument I’ve heard against averaging points in a group is “someone’s going to put in their grandma for 20 years, etc”

Is anyone on here opposed to averaging group points?

I've never heard anyone oppose point averaging.

I, personally, am wholeheartedly against a total discontinuement of otc opportunities, at least for residents. I imagine the CPW feels similarly.

I basically like our state's system but it could obviously use some tweaking.

I think they really went the wrong direction when they removed the requirement to front tag fees and made it almost free to apply. Force people to have some skin in the game. Just look at how the application numbers spiked that year from the previous.

 

[cnelk]

This will definitely be a 'process'.

No way will OTC go away in the short term. Too much $$$ involved.

IMO - The easiest and best way to START addressing the PP issue is in the LEFTOVER DRAW.


1- No more 'Freebie' Re-issue tags. At any Point rate. If a Re-issue tag pops up, you'll need the base amount of PPs that tag takes in the Primary Draw to get it. [I know guys that have archery elk hunted unit 76 multiple times in the past 5-8 years]

The CPW already uses the 'next in line' method to disperse unwanted/returned tags.
Dont let the CPW say they dont have the manpower to do this, because new this year they implemented a new 'Surrender Period' and anyone that drew a tag will be notified by the CPW. So part of this is ALREADY IN PLACE.

2- Any Re-issue tag gets Resident preference first. Necessary PPs will be taken.

3- Have Primary Draw Choices 1 & 2 take PPs.


I really do think the 'PP can' will kicked down the road for a LOOOOONG time so dont get hopes up for any changes soon

 

[ckleeves]

The only argument I’ve heard against averaging points in a group is “someone’s going to put in their grandma for 20 years, etc”

Is anyone on here opposed to averaging group points?

Averaging is a double edged sword. The selfish part of me is really in favor of it, I know enough people with stacks of points that would piggyback me into some great units if it was an option.

I could see it helping flush really high point holders through the system but at the cost of continuing point creep in the low/mid tier units at least for a period of time.

For it to work points also have to have some monetary value, if the current prices were to stay (talking residents here) then people will surely game the system when you can get Mom a point for every species for peanuts a year and then refund her tag or throw it in the trash after she piggybacks you into the unit you want. Now if those points were 50.00-100.00 each it certainly creates a little pause for putting Grandma into the draw every year for 10 years.

Now I’m certainly not saying I want points to be 50.00 each, just saying what I could see happening if averaging were to happen.

 

[Huntin_GI]

Once you draw you have to wait 3 years before you start building points again.

This may be the worst idea I have read in this thread. We have the largest elk herd in the United States and you should only be able to hunt elk every 3 years as a resident?

 

[dreamingbig]

This may be the worst idea I have read in this thread. We have the largest elk herd in the United States and you should only be able to hunt elk every 3 years as a resident?

I meant for nonresidents to clear out all the point buyers. I know it wouldn’t stop them all but it might help.


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[Gunnersdad49]

• Auction off leftover tags using preference points to denominate the bids (instead of the current first-come-first-served frenzy with no effect on points). Then offer anything left after the auction up for sale on a FCFS basis with no effect on points.

I think this is a really interesting idea!

 

[sndmn11]

I also think that in the primary draw you should be able to draw whatever falls to that choice. If a person wants to hunt bulls and cows first season in the flat tops, they should be able to draw them in April versus having to do leftover day nonsense.

 

[svivian]

I agree I think a huge issue is the leftover draw and the ability to turn in tags and get your points back. Ill use unit 61 as an example, when the big burn happened there were approximately 20 tags turned in that year. Too many times people draw a tag, then research what its really about, find out they changed their minds and turn it in. Then some dude who sits on his computer all day or signs up for notification services gets a text and picks up the tag without using any points at all.

I think the system needs to take into account units that are lets say 5 or more points for both mule deer and elk, and how they will be issued if one gets turned in. I think some points need to be burned for those who either turn them in or get them off the leftover list, but certainly not lose all of them.

 

[sndmn11]

I agree I think a huge issue is the leftover draw and the ability to turn in tags and get your points back. Ill use unit 61 as an example, when the big burn happened there were approximately 20 tags turned in that year. Too many times people draw a tag, then research what its really about, find out they changed their minds and turn it in. Then some dude who sits on his computer all day or signs up for notification services gets a text and picks up the tag without using any points at all.

I think the system needs to take into account units that are lets say 5 or more points for both mule deer and elk, and how they will be issued if one gets turned in. I think some points need to be burned for those who either turn them in or get them off the leftover list, but certainly not lose all of them.

I know a group of folks who would religiously get a tag, turn it in so they knew one would be available on leftover day and recover their points, and then spend 24hrs in front of sportsman's to buy it. All it cost was a day off and en extra license fee since they chose point restoration. They also were in the teens with points as they had hunted OTC and banked points since age 12, and then figured out how to game the system in their 20s.

This was before last year's change to make the online purchase on leftover day more speedy.

 

[svivian]

Yeah I know some here on the western slope who are doing the same for certain mule deer spots. I think that's part of the point creep problem for sure.

 

[NickyD]

I agree I think a huge issue is the leftover draw and the ability to turn in tags and get your points back. Ill use unit 61 as an example, when the big burn happened there were approximately 20 tags turned in that year. Too many times people draw a tag, then research what its really about, find out they changed their minds and turn it in. Then some dude who sits on his computer all day or signs up for notification services gets a text and picks up the tag without using any points at all.

I think the system needs to take into account units that are lets say 5 or more points for both mule deer and elk, and how they will be issued if one gets turned in. I think some points need to be burned for those who either turn them in or get them off the leftover list, but certainly not lose all of them.

Any tag worth 5 points or more gets sent to the next 5 people on the draw list. Only after being denied by those 5 people does it make it to the leftover list. And if I’m reading the website correctly, it looks like you lose your points for those tags.

Looks like this process started last year.

 

[svivian]

Any tag worth 5 points or more gets sent to the next 5 people on the draw list. Only after being denied by those 5 people does it make it to the leftover list. And if I’m reading the website correctly, it looks like you lose your points for those tags.

Looks like this process started last year.

Only if one of those 5 guys pick it up do one of those people lose points. The original tag holder loses nothing and the 5 guys who get called next all know where that tag will end up free of having to use points.

The 5 dudes who get called all know they have a chance to hunt the same unit 2 years in a row if they wait and try to pick it up on the leftover list.

 

[lak2004]

Only if one of those 5 guys pick it up do one of those people lose points. The original tag holder loses nothing and the 5 guys who get called next all know where that tag will end up free of having to use points.

The 5 dudes who get called all know they have a chance to hunt the same unit 2 years in a row if they wait and try to pick it up on the leftover list.

That seems highly unlikely with how the leftover works. That would be a huge gamble to let it go to leftover since you are likely not going to get it

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[cnelk]

I really think the first and best approach is to focus on the Secondary Draw and Reissue Tags.

Put the pressure on hunters that if they want to hunt a draw unit, PPs will be required

 

[sndmn11]

That seems highly unlikely with how the leftover works. That would be a huge gamble to let it go to leftover since you are likely not going to get it

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You also run into the short notice of being offered a tag. I think a big reason why those end up not being snagged by the next five is because they aren't familiar with the unit and have no time to scout. If I remember right, there were 9-10 high quality elk tags for the same hunt code, 61 1st maybe, on the leftover list one day. That means that 45-50 people said no thanks to that.

 

[MuleyFever]

You get a tag you lose your points. Too many people after a limited and shrinking resource.