College vs skilled trades.

[roadrunner]

Again, not arguing that it’s not convoluted, but the original idea behind college, in the Socratic sense, was to produce philosophers: thinkers.
Doctors and lawyers both have to know and interpret complex language, terminology and lexicon. To address your specific example, The idea behind studying languages is to be able to fully understand, comprehend, interpret and discuss these complex thought processes, problems and interpretations. In the year 2021, I’m not saying that one can’t do this entirely independently, particularly if one is interested in virtually any subject as their are podcasts that are as in depth on any given subject as there are college lectures, BUT, that was the original idea: you are challenged with varying complexities across a variety of subjects in a way to stimulate the brain to better understand learning processes, critical thinking in general application and be able to apply that to a very specific field in an efficient manner.

The original delineation between trade school and college was just as you described: in tradeschool you focus on developing a specific skill set. In college, you focus on developing a broader thought application that is later refined in practice: Med school, Law school, engineering school etc or through a direct degree such as economics, business, biology, mathematics, thought etc and your brain is adapted to this broad spectrum of critical thought.

While, again, this has all become very confused and convoluted, you have to remember that for the vast majority of history, a tradesman wasn’t expect to be be literate and that obviously doesn’t apply to modern society. In many modern trades, a foundation of critical thought is just as important for the execution of that trade as it is for many white collar jobs. So the discussion shifts to how much education does one need? And there’s no easy answer to that as trades are only getting more complex.

All professions are a trade. The road to get there varies. It takes critical thought processes in skills trades as much as it does in cognitive trades. When I say an MD doesn't need to worry about interpreting poetry, it means they waste time taking unnecessary electives as a pre-professional program undergrad. In the case of lawyers, it clouds their thinking and they read way too much into scenarios, and then you get misconstrued interpretation of law. They are a helpless bunch.

Doing more research in a degree field is how you sharpen critical thinking skills, not trying to understand what Robert Frost meant in a poem or even Hemingway in a drunken stupor.

In the case of specialized trades, I trust an NDE Level 3 Technician way more than I do a licensed engineer with 7 years under his belt. They know more, they've seen more, they know what causes what. They usually know the code forwards and backwards and interpret the results for the engineer.

 

[vortex]

Nursing is pretty good bet for freedom and financially. Its pretty easy to travel and make 150k per year or more working 3-4 days a week in the icu or emergency room . As a contract rate employee. Work a stretch then take off for a month to hunt or do whatever u feel like. Great field and more jobs than u can ever want to work!!!!


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[Actual_Cryptid]

Here’s a specific question that I am curious to see answers to:

Many Gen Zers are wanting to retire by 40, deciding this at 18-20 and then Planning, budgeting and investing their life accordingly around this strategy.

What do you think is the best course of action for someone to fully retire comfortably at the age of 40?

Have rich parents and then lie about not having rich parents when people ask how you did it.

When I enlisted at 18, I planned to make a career of it and retire at 38 and work part time at a gun shop to pay for ammo. My knees and back disagreed with me, and anyone who served knows how much harder it is to make a career if your MOS locks out NCO promotions for a couple years. Even if I had pulled it off, I'd have been living a pretty low-income lifestyle because my version of comfortable is "play legos with guns and play videogames." I could get buy with a cheap house in the county next to me if it was just me, but then again now I'm married and I love my wife more than I like the savings I'd get from living in a doublewide on 40 acres by myself. Even then,I'd have been counting on military disability, and when I enlisted there wasn't VA healthcare coverage for all veterans either, so I'd have been paying through the nose. I had a car accident a few years back, would have cost me ~25k without insurance, which if that had happened 10 years from now would have wiped out a significant portion of my savings.

Now maybe you invest in crypto. Look at the charts and remember that for every "Well if I'd bought here and sold here" 100x gain, there's a bunch of bag-holders who bought high and were SOL when prices dropped. Or worse, you pick the wrong coin and just lose it all. Same goes for options trading and retail investing. Treat it all like gambling, and mentally write off every dime as lost until it becomes a realized gain in your bank account.

You could try real estate. Of course if the neolibs have their way, helicopter money whenever there's a housing crisis. If the Neocons get it, you won't have tenants who can afford rent. If you're renting out cheap real estate your odds you get a shit tenant are high, and the odds you end up catching a bullet or losing your investment to a fire, flood, burst pipe, etc is up there' hope you're insured for full replacement. Plus if you have to evict someone, you're playing the odds that they're not gonna be the type that blows their last rent check on an AR15. No shortage of people willing to sell you a book about how easy it is though.

Could buy gold. Then at least you only lose 30% of the value when you have to sell it to pay a bill.

Get an MBA and work in something that pays real well, maybe. The high-dollar jobs usually come easier if you have rich parents though, and between burnout and market crashes it's no sure thing.

So yeah, have rich parents, then attribute your success to everything except having rich parents when people ask.

 

[CorbLand]

Here’s a specific question that I am curious to see answers to:

Many Gen Zers are wanting to retire by 40, deciding this at 18-20 and then Planning, budgeting and investing their life accordingly around this strategy.

What do you think is the best course of action for someone to fully retire comfortably at the age of 40?

Create multiple streams of passive income.

 

[Poser]

All professions are a trade. The road to get there varies. It takes critical thought processes in skills trades as much as it does in cognitive trades. When I say an MD doesn't need to worry about interpreting poetry, it means they waste time taking unnecessary electives as a pre-professional program undergrad. In the case of lawyers, it clouds their thinking and they read way too much into scenarios, and then you get misconstrued interpretation of law. They are a helpless bunch.

Doing more research in a degree field is how you sharpen critical thinking skills, not trying to understand what Robert Frost meant in a poem or even Hemingway in a drunken stupor.

In the case of specialized trades, I trust an NDE Level 3 Technician way more than I do a licensed engineer with 7 years under his belt. They know more, they've seen more, they know what causes what. They usually know the code forwards and backwards and interpret the results for the engineer.

Again, that was the original idea behind a “University” = universal education. “An institution of higher education offering tuition in mainly non-vocational subjects and typically having the power to confer degrees”

 

[RS3579]

One other consideration is union contributions to democrats, not sure I would feel great knowing I was paying dues to support people who wanted to undermine my way of life.

Dems are pro union. Your paying dues to support your job, and that I turn supports your way of life. Your hobbies may be supported by a Republican. You can still enjoy both.

 

[Poser]

Create multiple streams of passive income.

That’s my thought. MBAs generally take too long to make real money. Few people in those fields start making real money until their mid 30s to 40s. I can’t remember the exact statistic, but the vast majority for 6 figure earners don’t hit that number until their early to mid 40s on average.

 

[CorbLand]

That’s my thought. MBAs generally take too long to make real money. Few people in those fields start making real money until their mid 30s to 40s. I can’t remember the exact statistic, but the vast majority for 6 figure earners don’t hit that number until their early to mid 40s on average.

I know a couple kids that have MBAs that were completed in their mid to late twenties. Most were working on multiple streams while getting their degrees. A lot where investing, buying homes, starting businesses, etc. It can be done.

 

[roadrunner]

Unless you

That’s my thought. MBAs generally take too long to make real money. Few people in those fields start making real money until their mid 30s to 40s. I can’t remember the exact statistic, but the vast majority for 6 figure earners don’t hit that number until their early to mid 40s on average.

Unless you get a petroleum engineering degree, then you start in the high five figures and easily in the low six's by 30...

 

[Poser]

Unless you


Unless you get a petroleum engineering degree, then you start in the high five figures and easily in the low six's by 30...

But you’re still far from “peaking” until you’ve made some moves through your 30s and gotten into upper mgt, correct?

 

[roadrunner]

But you’re still far from “peaking” until you’ve made some moves through your 30s and gotten into upper mgt, correct?

Not necessarily. Depends on the "trade". Where I'm currently at, upper management to near executive (director level) makes less than a senior level engineer in O&G.

"Peaking" is a subjective term. If you aspire the to be the company narcissist, sorry, CEO, than no. You likely haven't peaked until the upper 40's to low 50's. If you aspire to a principle engineer, that can very well happen by the time you're 40 and then you've "peaked".

 

[NYyotekiller]

One other positive thing about the skilled trades that hasn’t been mentioned is how the quality individuals typically get promoted to management positions and don’t turn wrench’s or swing hammers like most start out doing. Most people think that once your in the trades you’ll always be abusing your bodies daily, but that’s not necessarily true.

I’ve witnessed both sides of the argument in my line of work, and although I’m a licensed professional that has a higher education I’ll still push my two boys to get into the trades.

 

[Jbrow327]

Bump. This conversation is very interesting.

 

[FLATHEAD]

LOL!!!
I'll admit that I've "peaked".
My career goals are to be left alone till I can retire.

 

[Crusader]

Me too, I've "peaked," being only a couple of years from retirement. I'm an environmental scientist with a Master's degree (from the mid-1980's!) and have been pleased with how my career turned out. Of course, education was different back then, cost proportionately less than now and trades and technology were different then as well. But I'll throw my two cents in here on a couple of points. I agree with many of the posters that it just depends on the individual, what their aptitudes are, do they like to work with their hands, work inside or outside, etc. No one size fits all. Regarding compensation, I think it's best to compare salaries/income with overtime excluded as there are tradeoffs to working lots of extra hours, even if the payoff is lucrative, and people value their free/spare time differently. Also, I too, have observed quite a few guys from various trades that have really banged-up bodies once they get into their 50s and it has definitely adversely impacted their quality of life. But I will say that I'm jealous of my 50-something aged buddies that have trade skills (electric, carpentry, etc.) that I don't have!

 

[SuperDUECE22]

Also, I too, have observed quite a few guys from various trades that have really banged-up bodies once they get into their 50s and it has definitely adversely impacted their quality of life.

Also, I too, have observed quite a few people who drive a desk for a living that are obese once they get into their 40s and it has definitely adversely impacted their quality of life.

 

[Marble]

Create multiple streams of passive income.

And be debt free.

I think 40 is a lofty goal for retirement. A lot of life left after that. A lot of people will go into another profession retiring that early.

50 seems more doable, but even then that pretty dang young.

I can retire at 50, and I might, depending on how my investments do. But I really love my job, I make great money ~$170k, wife makes makes a little less but may surpass me here shortly.

I guess if you had passive income like rentals, you would never really be retired if maintained them yourself.

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[Marble]

One other positive thing about the skilled trades that hasn’t been mentioned is how the quality individuals typically get promoted to management positions and don’t turn wrench’s or swing hammers like most start out doing. Most people think that once your in the trades you’ll always be abusing your bodies daily, but that’s not necessarily true.

I’ve witnessed both sides of the argument in my line of work, and although I’m a licensed professional that has a higher education I’ll still push my two boys to get into the trades.

I've been telling my boy this. But he's 19...so he still knows everything. He does, and doesn't, realize it took my wife and I nearly 20 years of professional experience, in our mid to late 30s, before we really started making good money and were debt free and had lots of expendable income.

He doesn't realize that most people in their mid 30s go through a life change where your perspective changes. Maturity has hit a peak and having an elevated view on certain topics creates a different perspective. You end up making choices you had been very against, for the better.

I've told him several times that the guy who only does labor and does not progress into more of a management/supervisory role by 40 usually does so for a reason.

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[Sundance]

The maritime trades are hurting right now. Engine mechanics, electricians, GOOD welders, refrigeration techs, skilled net builders etc. There are several guys I know that make 100K+ in 3-1/2 months working a seasonal fishery in AK as fleet support. I had one guy who makes fishing nets earn $70K in 3 months and never stepped foot on the water. There are people who work a seasonal job in skilled trades for the summer, then a part-time jig back home and gross $150k-$200k every year like clockwork, regardless of the price of fish. Shoot, a kid can get their MMD, TWIC, and other coast guard certs and be making $75K with serious bene's for the state ferry systems in no time. My oldest son will most likely go the trades route and I'm helping him with mechanic/electrician skills and pushing him to get his HVAC certs. If he plays his cards right he will be earing $100K a year in his early 20's and never leave the dock.

 

[Jbrow327]

Me too, I've "peaked," being only a couple of years from retirement. I'm an environmental scientist with a Master's degree (from the mid-1980's!) and have been pleased with how my career turned out. Of course, education was different back then, cost proportionately less than now and trades and technology were different then as well. But I'll throw my two cents in here on a couple of points. I agree with many of the posters that it just depends on the individual, what their aptitudes are, do they like to work with their hands, work inside or outside, etc. No one size fits all. Regarding compensation, I think it's best to compare salaries/income with overtime excluded as there are tradeoffs to working lots of extra hours, even if the payoff is lucrative, and people value their free/spare time differently. Also, I too, have observed quite a few guys from various trades that have really banged-up bodies once they get into their 50s and it has definitely adversely impacted their quality of life. But I will say that I'm jealous of my 50-something aged buddies that have trade skills (electric, carpentry, etc.) that I don't have!

Interesting