Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

[MtnW]

I have watched portions of two of Aaron Davidson’s interviews. My opinion is he is just another “Carnival Barker” with a very self serving agenda. People can’t see through his B.S. is beyond me??How many times in 30 minutes does he say “ oh my customers are CEO’s, rich business people, yada yada yada? It is so obvious all he is saying is , pay to much for one of my product and you can be in this elite crowd of inexperienced, uninformed buyers with more money than brains or common sense. I also listened to another of his infomercials where he can’t even remember the shot he made/missed on a brown/grizzly bear, like he is such an experienced well traveled hunter. I guarantee I can remember every shot I have made on a dangerous game animal whether it be mountain grizzly or cape buffalo. I find Mr. Davidson a overhyped, self serving, arrogant, condescending, conman. He is about the last person I would purchase a rifle or scope from, and about the last person I would want to share a hunting camp with.

 

[wind gypsy]

I heard him boasting other companies follow his lead on everything they produce. Do they?

He mentioned examples, i dont recall "everything" being mentioned but it seems many companies would have been better served if they paid attention sooner. Negative comb (without drop at heel at least) stocks - the market has been sleeping on this for over a decade, now starting to follow.

Ballistic range finders - i wouldn't consider one without a good solver built in now. I'd say they led..

Custom turrets. Ya think this has caught on?

I also heard him boast that his customers fly in private aircraft to come and buy his products. That’s nice. Don’t care about any of that really.

He also mentioned his customers are winners and take the biggest and best game out there. By spending how much money to achieve such accomplishments? Of course, if you have so much money you can’t spend it all in one lifetime, you can buy your way into a nice experience and trophy. I’m not opposed to rich people buying what they want. However, his marketing message there didn’t strike home with me…at all. Because that’s not the hunting I do.

Again, didn’t care for his message and condescending tone. So, I turned it off.

I see that as mostly the illustration for why they are able to spend a shit ton of $ on R&D and pushing the envelope.

 

[Flyjunky]

It makes perfect sense to me why these guys are willing to pay for the Gunwerks “system”. Same reason I pay to get my oil changed. I’m not into cars, don’t really care to learn how to change my own oil, and don’t mind paying someone else to do it for me.

Good comment. By some people’s logic in this thread they should be doing all their own work on their cars so they understand how the system works and how to correct something before it goes wrong, possibly catastrophically.

 

[Aaron Davidson]

I have watched portions of two of Aaron Davidson’s interviews. My opinion is he is just another “Carnival Barker” with a very self serving agenda. People can’t see through his B.S. is beyond me??How many times in 30 minutes does he say “ oh my customers are CEO’s, rich business people, yada yada yada? It is so obvious all he is saying is , pay to much for one of my product and you can be in this elite crowd of inexperienced, uninformed buyers with more money than brains or common sense. I also listened to another of his infomercials where he can’t even remember the shot he made/missed on a brown/grizzly bear, like he is such an experienced well traveled hunter. I guarantee I can remember every shot I have made on a dangerous game animal whether it be mountain grizzly or cape buffalo. I find Mr. Davidson a overhyped, self serving, arrogant, condescending, conman. He is about the last person I would purchase a rifle or scope from, and about the last person I would want to share a hunting camp with.

We've been subject to this kind of criticism from the beginning. Its fine. The comments about arrogance are probably truish. I have a lot of confidence in my knowledge of the shooting system (to extreme detail), the capabilities of people and equipment and the accomplishments of my company and team. I've made peace with the fact that not everyone is a customer. Fine.

The personal insults are really lame. You don't know me. Con man? What are you talking about? We are the most transparent rifle company out there. We film and teach everything we do, the shop is open to tours anytime, our customers enjoy a unequivocal satisfaction guarantee, our prices are transparent. Your attacks show your ignorance, do better.

The truth is most people/shooters don't understand the significance of finer detail and design execution. For the longest time the Mcmillan A series was the epitome of LR stock design. Everyone copied or used it. We went a diff route, applying specific engineering principles to create a completely different shooting experience. If you never used one you had no idea. Just like driving a corrolla vs a mercedes ("the tikka is just as good"). Now you see our design geometry and ethos showing up in everyones rifle stocks (after 20 years) and everyone benefits. Times that by dozens of similar examples and you'll start to understand the confidence....

 

[MtnW]

We've been subject to this kind of criticism from the beginning. Its fine. The comments about arrogance are probably truish. I have a lot of confidence in my knowledge of the shooting system (to extreme detail), the capabilities of people and equipment and the accomplishments of my company and team. I've made peace with the fact that not everyone is a customer. Fine.

The personal insults are really lame. You don't know me. Con man? What are you talking about? We are the most transparent rifle company out there. We film and teach everything we do, the shop is open to tours anytime, our customers enjoy a unequivocal satisfaction guarantee, our prices are transparent. Your attacks show your ignorance, do better.

The truth is most people/shooters don't understand the significance of finer detail and design execution. For the longest time the Mcmillan A series was the epitome of LR stock design. Everyone copied or used it. We went a diff route, applying specific engineering principles to create a completely different shooting experience. If you never used one you had no idea. Just like driving a corrolla vs a mercedes ("the tikka is just as good"). Now you see our design geometry and ethos showing up in everyones rifle stocks (after 20 years) and everyone benefits. Times that by dozens of similar examples and you'll start to understand the confidence....

Your arrogance is overwhelming or underwhelming depending on how you look at you.
My money and experience goes to proven builders of hunting rifles such as Gene Simillion, Mark Penrod, and D’Arcy Echols. The real experienced hunters (and well healed) use these builders rifles. Believe it or not Mr. Davidson the above mentioned builders do not seek your advice on how to build a reliable, accurate hunting rifle. If you only knew as much as you think you do. Yes “Carnival Barker” is quite appropriate to your style of marketing!

 

[wind gypsy]

Your arrogance is overwhelming or underwhelming depending on how you look at you.
My money and experience goes to proven builders of hunting rifles such as Gene Simillion, Mark Penrod, and D’Arcy Echols. The real experienced hunters (and well healed) use these builders rifles. Believe it or not Mr. Davidson the above mentioned builders do not seek your advice on how to build a reliable, accurate hunting rifle. If you only knew as much as you think you do.

What are you even talking about. Comparing what Echols does to what gunwerks does are not remotely apples to apples. Completely different markets.

You're coming off like one of those dudes who critiqued Avery for not dressing like it's 1910 while hunting in Africa.

 

[svivian]

 

[MtnW]

What are you even talking about. Comparing what Echols does to what gunwerks does are not remotely apples to apples. Completely different markets.

Really? We are talking accurate hunting rifles?Aaron Davidson says his market is the ultra wealthy.Why not add the other two names in the mix, Mark Penrod and Gene Simillion? They build the most accurate and reliable hunting rifles in the world, along with a few others not named. Not only the rich buy rifles from these world known builders but some average dudes who are avid experienced hunters who want the best most reliable rifles made.

 

[Flyjunky]

Your arrogance is overwhelming or underwhelming depending on how you look at you.
My money and experience goes to proven builders of hunting rifles such as Gene Simillion, Mark Penrod, and D’Arcy Echols. The real experienced hunters (and well healed) use these builders rifles. Believe it or not Mr. Davidson the above mentioned builders do not seek your advice on how to build a reliable, accurate hunting rifle. If you only knew as much as you think you do. Yes “Carnival Barker” is quite appropriate to your style of marketing!

Wow, and you’re complaining about arrogance??? WTF

 

[Deadspace]

Keep up the solid work @Aaron Davidson. Even the haters benefit from it.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Your arrogance is overwhelming or underwhelming depending on how you look at you.
My money and experience goes to proven builders of hunting rifles such as Gene Simillion, Mark Penrod, and D’Arcy Echols. The real experienced hunters (and well healed) use these builders rifles. Believe it or not Mr. Davidson the above mentioned builders do not seek your advice on how to build a reliable, accurate hunting rifle. If you only knew as much as you think you do. Yes “Carnival Barker” is quite appropriate to your style of marketing!

Apples to oranges.. You don't like Aaron, got it, but your comparison is laughable.

 

[Silver Wings]

I should be charging my buddies at this point

After a bunch of trial and error and eventually getting my systems to pass the drop test, I basically set up everything for most of my hunting group.

Sold my cousin a tikka setup and he has not needed to touch the zero in approximately 4 years

But it was a lot of reading, learning, tons of ammo etc to get there.

Well I, for one, appreciate all your reading, learning and tons of ammo. It has definitely saved me a lot of reading, maybe not so much on the ammo, but I enjoy all the shooting.
Looking forward to my new to me 6mm Tikka build. I know it’s no GW build, but I’ll have to make due

 

[wind gypsy]

Really? We are talking accurate hunting rifles?Aaron Davidson says his market is the ultra wealthy.Why not add the other two names in the mix, Mark Penrod and Gene Simillion? They build the most accurate and reliable hunting rifles in the world, along with a few others not named. Not only the rich buy rifles from these world known builders but some average dudes who are avid experienced hunters who want the best most reliable rifles made.

There are countless gunsmiths who can chamber an accurate hunting rifle. I dont see Gunwerk's Schtick as being at all about being "the most accurate" or even the most obsessive about flawless machining, fitment, and finish. I dont see Aaron seeking out a challenge with Alex Wheeler (or similar) for the most precise shooting hunting rifle. As has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, obsessing over 0.1 MOA precision difference means very little compared to shooter execution - which it would appear gunwerks is focused on streamlining with it's products more so than building a benchrest capable rifle.

I dont know much about Penrod and Simillion and only a bit about Echols. Are they designing their own stock shapes based upon breaking the cleanest trigger pull and managing recoil? Did they drive the industry towards ballistics on-board range finders? Are they designing scopes to improve where current options are lacking? At first glance, they come across as highly regarded gunsmiths who use traditional designs but execute them at a very high level. In some cases with an enormous upcharge for a bunch of hand fitting, finishing, and stockwork, and "high brow decoration". Not meant as a nock on them at all, its just not at all an apples to apples comparison to gunwerks.

 

[Macintosh]

My "thing" for a long time was making fancy walnut gunstocks. I'm looking at a pile of reference books on stock making and stock fitting now. The concept of a high butt and negative comb to reduce muzzle-flip and felt recoil has been around for 75ish years if not more, and is mentioned in all of the books I own. There are examples you can point to utilizing this principle going back to the era of wood-stocked military guns. One that many people are familiar with is the m79 grenade launcher which was developed in the 1950's and went into service in the very early 1960's. Ditto with multiple others such as the m240 machine gun, which has roots in the 1950's, also with an aggressively negative comb.

Aaron Davidson cant claim to have invented this feature, it existed before he was born, but he can probably claim to have recognized the benefit and applied it to his own product, then shouted it from the rooftops loud-enough that the industry writ large took notice...name me a hunting rifle that utilized this geometry prior to the early 2000's? Now we have not only the gunwerx stocks, but also allterra, the rokstock, the mcmillan mountain tracker and others, all with their own take on the same concept. To whatever degree Gunwerx had a hand in making a negative comb mainstream, that's a benefit that we all have access to in various forms now. Someone else mentioned rangefinding binos with an integrated ballistic solution. No idea who "invented" that, but to bring it to market before people really saw the benefit, to the degree that it's now more or less standard across a variety of shooting disciplines and we have our choice of platforms and glass, counts for a lot. There's two ways to be influential--do the same thing better (which I think is an accurate description of what the previously mentioned custom gunsmiths do), or do something differently becasue you see an advantage, which describes gunwerx. Doing it differently than people are accustomed to is an uphill battle. Does it take being loud to the point people call you a huckster? Sometimes it absolutely does. Does anyone think an independant small shop does that by being meek and polite and not sometimes coming off as brash or overconfidant or arrogant? I dont. And how is it hurting anyone if we all have the opportunity to buy elsewhere?

 

[Steve O]

I’ve said this before, I’m not the Gunwerks target audience but I absolutely appreciate their innovation. I am an expert in my field and know that my delivery is not to everyone’s liking…with that said I learn something every day and look at just about everything with an open mind. I will also add an anecdotal experience and give @Aaron Davidson a compliment. A few years ago I was attending a Total Archery Challenge event in Park City UT. To my surprise there was of all things a table with two gentlemen from Gunwerks and one of their rifles. I took advantage of this to inspect and get the lowdown on everything. Those two guys were incredibly knowledgeable…obviously he has built a very successful company with great and innovative products, good hiring policies and internal training. As a country and especially as an industry we need much more of this. We could all do with a little more of building up the positive rather than tearing down with perceived negatives.

 

[Aaron Davidson]

Darcy and Gene make wonderful works of art. Rifles like those are what inspired me to start Gunwerks 20 years ago!

 

[Quandary]

I have the Revic range finder, the Elevate bipod and use the Revic ballistic App (along with the Eagleman) They are very good products. Custom service is also great. They had some issues with the first version of the bipod and replaced them all at no charge with the second version. I don't think you see that very often. Not to mention anyone that recognizes the brilliance of James Eagleman (thank you for your service) can't be all bad.

As for the rifles? Sure they are $7,000ish but they are basically custom rifles. The only custom I had built was $6,400. The rifles I now build for myself are $4,500 to $5,000 in parts and chambering. So not really outrageously priced in relation to what the cost of the parts and chambering the barrel to do it yourself.

 

[Macintosh]

I have the Revic range finder, the Elevate bipod and use the Revic ballistic App (along with the Eagleman) They are very good products. Custom service is also great. They had some issues with the first version of the bipod and replaced them all at no charge with the second version. I don't think you see that very often. Not to mention anyone that recognizes the brilliance of James Eagleman (thank you for your service) can't be all bad.

As for the rifles? Sure they are $7,000ish but they are basically custom rifles. The only custom I had built was $6,400. The rifles I now build for myself are $4,500 to $5,000 in parts and chambering. So not really outrageously priced in relation to what the cost of the parts and chambering the barrel to do it yourself.

Regardless of whether you call them custom, or small-batch production, etc. R&D is a cost the same way a machine is a cost, and that $ has to be built into the price of each item sold. The reason small gunsmiths can turn out super good work at a "reasonable" price is in part becasue they dont have to invent the product design and the manufacturing process for each item. The reason a tikka is so inexpensive is becase the R&D and production processes are spread across so many units, and becasue they have minimized the number of parts, etc so they can do even larger production batches. A company like gunwerx that does a lot of R&D, plus has to put that into production and buy tooling, etc, AND doesnt sell a lot of units...well, the R&D cost and setup costs are simply divided into fewer items. If you've designed and built your own stock, your own action, your own this and your own that, well, the cost per item gets pretty high, compared to if you simply put something togeehr from existing off-the-shelf parts from another vendor. It's exactly the reason why almost universally there are diminishing returns as you go up in price for any given product category, ie you have to pay 2x as much to get a product that's 10% better. Not everyone is willing to pay that. That's OK, gunwerx and others like them arent trying to sell a rifle to everyone.

 

[Sundodger]

I listened to the podcast, and no doubt there is some confidence/arrogance that I think are causing these emotional outbursts from some people.


BUT as a fellow engineer, I was struggling to find any faults in the technical topics he discussed. There are definitely a handful of comments of his I would have asked him for clarification, maybe pushed back a little, but I couldn't find any real errors. Sure I would have liked him to go into further nerdy detail, but that probably would bored 99.9% of Clays listeners to death.

In summary:

 

[JGRaider]

I have watched portions of two of Aaron Davidson’s interviews. My opinion is he is just another “Carnival Barker” with a very self serving agenda. People can’t see through his B.S. is beyond me??How many times in 30 minutes does he say “ oh my customers are CEO’s, rich business people, yada yada yada? It is so obvious all he is saying is , pay to much for one of my product and you can be in this elite crowd of inexperienced, uninformed buyers with more money than brains or common sense. I also listened to another of his infomercials where he can’t even remember the shot he made/missed on a brown/grizzly bear, like he is such an experienced well traveled hunter. I guarantee I can remember every shot I have made on a dangerous game animal whether it be mountain grizzly or cape buffalo. I find Mr. Davidson a overhyped, self serving, arrogant, condescending, conman. He is about the last person I would purchase a rifle or scope from, and about the last person I would want to share a hunting camp with.

Yes......the prototypical little man with Napolean syndrome. Like I said before, he relies on lazy, ignorant, lardasss lawyer types to believe his hype.