Chpt #4 Sabotless Shooting - Ulite in the Rock Pit

[sabotloader]

Shooting withdrawals had set in really bad, the temp has dropped to the low 50's and it has finally rained (dropping the fire hazard), and it was drizzle-ling this morning here in Moscow - I decide to hope for the best and head to the rock pit...

The mission started out to be some sabot testing with a quality rifle instead of the Project Rifle. I wanted to get velocities + test the ability of the MMP - Sub Bridge to replace either the wad or the shot card...

I talked to Del Ramsey about this project in a conversation on the phone. I suggested to him that I was shooting flat based 50 cal bullets sabotless in my 50 cal rifle and instead of using a shot card or a wad - why not sub in a "Sub Base". The sub base is made with the HPH Polymer formula and should easily with stand shooting these bullets. Del could not think of a reason that it might be a safety issue although he was not willing to say "it will work". At the end of the conversation we were both wondering???

Today, I think I found out... I got 15 shots in before I was forced to abandoned the Rock Pit because of rain. I was shooting:

Knight Mountaineer Ultra Lite - 50 cal.
Redfield 3x9x42 Accu Ranger Hunter
Barnes - 50x275 XPB or Expanders
Barnes - 50x325 XPB's
120 gr T7-2f - by volume
MMP Sub Base

Because of the rush of the trip - I really wanted to get some shots down range so I did not set any paper or even the chrono. What I did was setup my tailgate work bench, my portable shooting bench - then walked 5 clay pigeons 100 yards down range to the rock wall. I placed them on various ledges and came back to commence shooting.

Both the 275's and the 375'w need to be knurled to increase their diameter enough to fir some what snugly down the barrel.

Bullets out of the box...



50-275's after Knurling



50-325's after knurling



First up for testing were the 325's - I loaded up and started working the pigeons. Pick off all five with out a problem... Then the problems started Del wanted to see what the sub-bases looked like after shooting and really so did I. I walked very slowly down range to look for the five bases - then after spend 5-10 minutes looking - I began looking for just one - any one! did not find any found all kinds of old sabots that that have been shot but no sub bases!!!

OK- what the heck I will shoot another five and increase the odds of finding at least one.... What another 5 birds down to the wall, again watching for bases along the way. NONE!

I should have mentioned that this rifle is sighted in right at 2-3/4" high at 100 and shooting the 325's I was holding the cross hair right at the bottom of the bird and just as planned every bird broke. With the 275's I used the same hold... and to may amazement I missed the first shot... not thinking a lot about it - I loaded up the second and touched it off - after the smoke cleared the bird was still there - which really bothered me... Del had suggested that the sub-base might effect the flight of the bullet - so I was beginning to believe it. After thinking about it for a bit I wondered if I was just shooting a little bit higher with the lighter 275's.

I loaded up the next shot and instead of holding the Xhair at the bottom of the bird I place the first line above the cross hair right in the middle of the bird... You can see the reticule in this pic.

BINGO!!! Problem solved - POI was high... this change brought the bullet to dead center on the bird... five shots later - birds gone. Began the hunt for "sub bases" - again no luck...

I could see the rain clouds coming but decided to push my luck one more time... ran five more birds out and started loading the 275's again and again the same results... broken birds..

I believe the sub bases worked great and I believe I can shoot a minute of a bird all day at 100 with sabotless bullets...

Couple of pictures of the trip...





Very Good Outing!

 

[bowinhand]

So after you buy the bullets and sub bases and knurl them wouldn't it be easier and about the same cost as shooting the thor bullets?

 

[sabotloader]

So after you buy the bullets and sub bases and knurl them wouldn't it be easier and about the same cost as shooting the thor bullets?

Not even close!! Thor's are really expensive and in fact a box of 50 Speer Deep Curls 50-300 is $24...

These are the ones that I really want to try...

 

[bowinhand]

Wow ok, do you have to knurl the deep curls? What dia. are they and where can you get them?

 

[sabotloader]

Wow ok, do you have to knurl the deep curls? What dia. are they and where can you get them?

Speer .50x300 Deep Curls should be available anyplace that sales the Speer line of bullets. I do not think the big 50 cal. bullets are in such a big demand that they can not be found. Speer is having a problem supplying the demand for Deep Curl bullets + trying to keep up with their world wide contracts. The Deep Curl is one of the best common production bullets made, offering controlled expansion, like a Nosler & Barnes, and bonded bullet to prevent it from coming apart.

Yes, I still knurl the Speers also - really does not take much time at all...

I should also say I will still always prefer to shoot a bullet in a sabot, but where required to shoot a full bore or when I am in one of the experimenting moods it is fun to do something different.

 

[bowinhand]

Thanks Sabotloader

What is the brass bullet in that pic?

so, if you were hunting in Colorado during muzzy season (no sabots, pellets, scopes ect.) what sabotless would you use?

I've taken two muley bucks and used a Hornady 300gr. FPB on one. shot pretty well and preformed well (buck went 15yrds), but the FPBs are .503 dia. and VERY tight and hard to load in my CVA. The other buck I used Precision Rifle's 390gr. Colorado Conical. Shot well and was easy to load but preformed poorly in my opinion as they are soft pure lead and penetration was VERY poor and a follow up shot was needed.

This year I am going to see how my gun likes the power belt platinum 300gr, but I'm unsure if they will do well as the "skirt" is the only thing that contacts the rifling and the bullet is under bore. I'm wondering as I don't shoot much if the Thor bullet is the way to go as far as a conical for hunting?

Hope I didn't hijack your thread.

 

[sabotloader]

Thanks Sabotloader

What is the brass bullet in that pic?

It is a Lehigh Bullet.

http://www.lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=31

Go down the page to:

500-200 .500 DOA HP

I am also trying to convince to make some of the same thing in 275 and 300 grain..

so, if you were hunting in Colorado during muzzy season (no sabots, pellets, scopes ect.) what sabotless would you use?

That is an easy answer right now for me - but you have to remember I am totally biased - If the Lehigh's will work and I were hunting elk - that is what I would use without a doubt, if they did not and from experimenting I would use the Barnes 50-325. But if I were going to use just a common less expensive factory bullet - it would be the Speer. And I should say if I do my job with the shot - the Speer will do everything I need it to do. My problem is like to be over-prepared so I would go with the Lehigh if I get it to work as easily as the Barnes do. I know the Speer will do and does.

I've taken two muley bucks and used a Hornady 300gr. FPB on one. shot pretty well and preformed well (buck went 15yrds), but the FPBs are .503 dia. and VERY tight and hard to load in my CVA. The other buck I used Precision Rifle's 390gr. Colorado Conical. Shot well and was easy to load but preformed poorly in my opinion as they are soft pure lead and penetration was VERY poor and a follow up shot was needed.

Again I have to tell you... I am biased - I am not a Hornady fan - I have had to many of them come apart on me, both in centerfire and ML rifles. I believe the Thors to be an excellent bullet but limited in what it will fit and awful expensive. Then I will say that the Lehigh or Bloodline Theory of operation and real life experience using the Lehigh/Bloodline bullets - they are a better bullet. The design and working of the Lehigh came from Germany.

This year I am going to see how my gun likes the power belt platinum 300gr, but I'm unsure if they will do well as the "skirt" is the only thing that contacts the rifling and the bullet is under bore. I'm wondering as I don't shoot much if the Thor bullet is the way to go as far as a conical for hunting?

I would go all day with the Thor vs. the any Power Belt - they really are not more than an elongated Round Ball.

Hope I didn't hijack your thread.

Not at all... good conversation going here...

Which CVA do you have? My Knight bores are right at .501-.502. These bullets I am trying might work very without Knurling in a tight CVA bore..

later - mike

 

[bowinhand]

Which CVA do you have? My Knight bores are right at .501-.502. These bullets I am trying might work very without Knurling in a tight CVA bore..

I have a Kodiak Mag with the Bergara barrel 1:28 twist that is probably the same as I tried the same Barnes 325gr and it did the slow slide down the bore. The Thor test kit I have the .500 and .501 fit with the .501 dia being tight enough that I wouldn't worry about the bullet coming unseated if the gun got knocked around a bit while being not too difficult to load. The .502 was very hard to load and the .503 was the same as the FPB and after staring left a bruise on my palm from the ram rod.

 

[sabotloader]

I have a Kodiak Mag with the Bergara barrel 1:28 twist that is probably the same as I tried the same Barnes 325gr and it did the slow slide down the bore.

That tells me a lot - that is exactly how it goes down my Knight bores. So with some knurling you could shoot that effectively. I will also tell you that the 275XPB and the 275 Expander are just slightly larger than the 325's. Just checked the Speers are right at the same size as the 325's but will knurl a lot easier because of their lead content.

The Thor test kit I have the .500 and .501 fit with the .501 dia being tight enough that I wouldn't worry about the bullet coming unseated if the gun got knocked around a bit while being not too difficult to load. The .502 was very hard to load and the .503 was the same as the FPB and after staring left a bruise on my palm from the ram rod.

I would think the 501 would be really close for you. When you shoot it the powder cavity will expand and create a gas seal + lock it to the bore.

We are finding the bullet does not actually need to be as tight as first assumed... It does need to be tight enough that it will not come of the powder.

Look on the internet at this bullet - another German advance.. (Lutz Moller - builder)

The bullet rides up the bore on those very thin bands around the bullet - yet reaches stabilization and shoots accurately at un heard of ranges.

 

[robby denning]

Very helpful Sabotloader as usual. Thanks