Chainsaws (temporarily) allowed in Wilderness

[JWP58]

Lawsuits filed

Forest Service sued over decision to use chain saws in wilderness areas

A coalition of conservation groups has sued the U.S. Forest Service for its recent decision to allow chain saws for trail work in two wilderness...

durangoherald.com

Of course why wouldn't they.

 

[DAOutfitters208]

"The groups seek for the decision to be overturned and for the courts to force the Forest Service to include public participation and come up with alternate plans for trail work."

I love this quote. I wonder how many of the people suing to stop this have ever set foot on the trails or area in question? If they are so against the forest service using a chainsaw to maintain the trails and make it easier, then they can go cut the trails out themselves.

They should have just cut the trails out and not said a thing. I doubt anyone would complain to finding a trail free of dead fall or care how it was done.

 

[Nickofthewoods]

"The groups seek for the decision to be overturned and for the courts to force the Forest Service to include public participation and come up with alternate plans for trail work."

I love this quote. I wonder how many of the people suing to stop this have ever set foot on the trails or area in question? If they are so against the forest service using a chainsaw to maintain the trails and make it easier, then they can go cut the trails out themselves.

They should have just cut the trails out and not said a thing. I doubt anyone would complain to finding a trail free of dead fall or care how it was done.

I know the folks within the San Juan Citizens Alliance actively explore the region on foot and even by horse at times in order to familiarize themselves with lands being threatened by oil and gas exploration or in consideration for Wilderness Designation etc. I'm not familiar with the other groups listed in the case.

I see both sides of this. The USFS has a big job to do, the local economies in the region thrive on outdoor tourism, a lot of which centers around those two Wilderness Areas and so there is motivation to get something done fast and efficiently. Conversely, the local conservation groups are standing up for the Wilderness Act. They want to patch a leak before it becomes a flood. In their minds the Forest Service could use this as a springboard to exploit the principles of Wilderness in the future.

 

[brsnow]

I know the folks within the San Juan Citizens Alliance actively explore the region on foot and even by horse at times in order to familiarize themselves with lands being threatened by oil and gas exploration or in consideration for Wilderness Designation etc. I'm not familiar with the other groups listed in the case.

I see both sides of this. The USFS has a big job to do, the local economies in the region thrive on outdoor tourism, a lot of which centers around those two Wilderness Areas and so there is motivation to get something done fast and efficiently. Conversely, the local conservation groups are standing up for the Wilderness Act. They want to patch a leak before it becomes a flood. In their minds the Forest Service could use this as a springboard to exploit the principles of Wilderness in the future.

Yes, whether it is the 2nd amendment, treaties, or wilderness act, I am okay with not temporarily suspending them. I believe given a chance the wilderness areas will not remain wilderness if we start to infringe. There are people constantly pushing for ebike access for example.

There is a reason they are called wilderness areas and the protections were put in place so they can remain as such.

 

[DAOutfitters208]

Yes, whether it is the 2nd amendment, treaties, or wilderness act, I am okay with not temporarily suspending them. I believe given a chance the wilderness areas will not remain wilderness if we start to infringe. There are people constantly pushing for ebike access for example.

There is a reason they are called wilderness areas and the protections were put in place so they can remain as such.

I get it, but it sounds like a huge task, why not give them a break and let them get it done and move on to other projects. If the Forest Service is anything down in Colorado like it is around here, maintenance of trails is not a priority. Its falls on the users who get tired of dealing with blow down. So when I hear they want to go clear trails, I say let them do it before they decide its not worth the time or energy dealing with all this blowback.

 

[Mike7]

The forest service can no longer maintain most of their trails. Motorized trails are maintained by us. Wilderness/nonmotorized trails go to crap. 1 person with a chainsaw is worth far more than ten hand tool people and all of the support they require.

Why even have wilderness recreational maps & trails, if the land just gets effectively locked up anyway?

Ever since logging dollars, large trail crews, and fire suppression went bye-bye on the NF, chainsaws should have become the rule, not the exception.

What disturbs the wilderness more, a FS temp crew of 20 with horses spending at least most of the summer on a 10 mile section of constant big downed trees that have built up over 15 years of neglect, or 2-3 FS contracted professionals with chainsaws getting it completed in early June?

 

[Nickofthewoods]

Good points but I wonder if the Forest Service even plans to do this in house with USFS employees or contract it out? A few years ago on the Roosevelt National Forest the USFS contracted out about 3,000 acres of thinning/mitigation. We would see about 10 Hispanic guys living out of 1 Suburban for several weeks. Their camping gear and skills left a lot to be desired and that particular group may very well have perished in a Wilderness setting.

 

[Dave_]

Good points but I wonder if the Forest Service even plans to do this in house with USFS employees or contract it out? A few years ago on the Roosevelt National Forest the USFS contracted out about 3,000 acres of thinning/mitigation. We would see about 10 Hispanic guys living out of 1 Suburban for several weeks. Their camping gear and skills left a lot to be desired and that particular group may very well have perished in a Wilderness setting.

Alot of times they will hire a bunch of temp seasonal employees or contract groups like conservation corps or similar groups that are pretty much low paid student/recent grad interns or troubled teens getting there life together. Doubtful they would have enough full time staff to do the work.

I don't have a problem with chainsaws as long as its spelled out exactly the time duration and ways they can be used. I don't want every outfitter with a horses to be carrying a chain saw into camp. But have no problem with FS employees or contracted crews to maintain infrastructure or fire fuel mitigation. I personally wish they could do some prescribed burning in some wildernesses.

 

[wymtnpounder]

Alot of times they will hire a bunch of temp seasonal employees or contract groups like conservation corps or similar groups that are pretty much low paid student/recent grad interns or troubled teens getting there life together. Doubtful they would have enough full time staff to do the work.

I don't have a problem with chainsaws as long as its spelled out exactly the time duration and ways they can be used. I don't want every outfitter with a horses to be carrying a chain saw into camp. But have no problem with FS employees or contracted crews to maintain infrastructure or fire fuel mitigation. I personally wish they could do some prescribed burning in some wildernesses.

I think they ought to let every outfitter with a chainsaw and horse go in for a designated week and then they'd really save some money, but that's just me...

 

[tttoadman]

The wilderness act should not be infringed on any more than 2A. If people don't like the trails, don't go there. Are they promoting wilderness or they promoting a groomed trail system. I welcome a trail system that has a healthy amount of blow downs. I agree this would set a bad precedent for anybody with an agenda to start manipulating the system.

 

[Mike7]

Comparing the development of the Wilderness Act to the Bill of Rights is like apples to oranges. The idea of developing wilderness was specifically so the land could be preserved for the use and enjoyment of the American people. The forest service can use mechanization for emergencies and for administering the land if needed. The past 25 years would appear support that improved administering is needed.

 

[530Chukar]

This has been pretty common practice in CA in the past. The FS lacks the funds to do much of any trail maintinence here due to all the fires. They basically allow the guides and anyone else to clear the trails while they look the other way. Otherwise there would be no access.


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[ScottH]

Is it OK to use air tankers and helicopters to fight wildfires in designated wilderness areas?

 

[Blacktail_Packer]

I’d say one normal person with with a crosscut could likely do more than 10 FS folks with chainsaws

Nonetheless a good sensible move

I don’t know about where your at but I grew up around Ca hotshot crews and while yes they are a government agency and are paid while waiting for shit to catch on fire at times, they get down when it’s time.

 

[Poser]

The Forrest service reversed this decision.
Realistically, they wouldn’t have had much time to do anything with chainsaws anyway due to the snowpack.

 

[5MilesBack]

Is it OK to use air tankers and helicopters to fight wildfires in designated wilderness areas?

That depends.........are the helicopters and tankers landing in the Wilderness Area? Aircraft fly over Wilderness Areas every single day. The better question is........"with all that downfall, should they be fighting those fires". Or, just let it clean itself up naturally?

 

[chasewild]

The Forrest service reversed this decision.
Realistically, they wouldn’t have had much time to do anything with chainsaws anyway due to the snowpack.

Although the Wilderness Act contains language supporting the use of chainsaws for the health of the forest, the proper mechanism (e.g. procedure) to ensure that the government isn't just stomping all over us little guys is NEPA. Plain and simple. If you're going to do it, do it right.