Cartridge for youth

[kkp005]

Easy.
Tikka 223
77gr tmk
I put mine in a chasis with a collapsible stock for small kids

 

[Marshfly]

Why do you think brakes are bad for kids?

Brakes are bad for everyone. The concussive effects are not debatable.

 

[eric1115]

Why do you think brakes are bad for kids?

At the range, really ought to double up hearing protection to prevent long term damage. Not fun for most kids, and plugs take good technique to be effective (even under muffs). Makes communication with the kids tough, even with electronics since they will have foamies underneath.

Concussion from a brake (even with good ear pro) increases the perceived violence of the shot and can cause tensing up in anticipation of the shot breaking despite the reduced effect on the shoulder.

Last (and most), in the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

 

[black dawg]

223.

Teaching my 6th youth to shoot now. Early on was a full weight 270, which didn't seem too bad, but I was not seeing the problems it was causing, as I had learned the same way and had the same problems. Next was a full weight 243, that I started to realize the importance of low recoil for learning, and for me. Problem was, that the rifle was too heavy for them to handle sometimes while hunting. All stocks were cut to correct length for them.

Next came a really lightweight 243, handling was great for them, but I did not expect the recoil difference with the difference in weight. That rifle caused more problems due to misses and just poor shooting. Stuck with that rifle for too long, because of the ease of handling for them.

After seeing forms reports of 223 for deer, with a few bullets listed specifically, i bought a couple 223s, and killed a couple deer myself. Deer died just as quickly, lacking blood trails, but not needed.

After having the kids shoot the 223, I started to see some changes in thier shooting, and them wanting to shoot more. In the end I settled on a 50ish grn load for them to practice, as full power hunting loads would still wear on them and they would get tired of shooting quicker.

Now, in all positions that they have adequate support to deal with the weight of the rifle, they outshoot me most every time.

 

[Marshfly]

At the range, really ought to double up hearing protection to prevent long term damage. Not fun for most kids, and plugs take good technique to be effective (even under muffs). Makes communication with the kids tough, even with electronics since they will have foamies underneath.

Concussion from a brake (even with good ear pro) increases the perceived violence of the shot and can cause tensing up in anticipation of the shot breaking despite the reduced effect on the shoulder.

Last (and most), in the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

Even with adequate hearing protection the shock wave from a brake can cause brain damage which is cumulative over time.

Brakes are terrible devices.

 

[Elite]

7mm-08

 

[eric1115]

Even with adequate hearing protection the shock wave from a brake can cause brain damage which is cumulative over time.

Brakes are terrible devices.

Is there good data on this? I've suspected it to be the case, but never seen studies on it specifically.

 

[Marshfly]

Is there good data on this? I've suspected it to be the case, but never seen studies on it specifically.

I just googled "study concussive effects of brakes rifle"

This article has a decent amount of sources linked.

Can Shooting Cause Brain Damage? The Science, the Bad News, and the Solution

Beyond hearing damage, are shooters and hunters susceptible to Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)? We share the bad news, the science and the solution.

shwat.com

But honestly, with brain stuff, if you can feel it, it's hurting you. And you can definitely feel the effects of a brake inside your head.

 

[Rich M]

What kind of range you want?

357 mag rifle is excellent. Low recoil, pretty quiet. 100 yd gun. Drops em dead. Yes i have and use mine.

350 Legend is almost excellent. About same recoil as 243. Not as loud. 200 yd gun. Cheap to shoot w $16/box target anmo. Get an 18 or 20 inch barrel, 16 is kinda short and can rock your world. I have ruger american ranch and is nice gun but for the 16 inch barrel.

300 blackout or 6.5 grendel or 7.62x39 are contenders - light recoil, mid-weight bullets.

243 is okay but you’ll probably lose a deer or two with it. Downside is light bullets. Shot my biggest deer/trophy muley w 243.

223 - i’m not on that bandwagon. Light bullets, small hole. Jittery/excited shooter often means lost game. As with 243, in hands of practiced and experienced shooters, is better.

You can download 308 or 6.5 or 7mm-08.

Stay away from muzzle brakes. Bad for you and everyone else shooting near you. I’m mostly deaf and those things cause pain. I leave range when those come out. Have definite opinions of folks using them at public ranges.

 

[JGS8163]

7-08 or a 6Creed,243.

 

[eric1115]

223.

Teaching my 6th youth to shoot now. Early on was a full weight 270, which didn't seem too bad, but I was not seeing the problems it was causing, as I had learned the same way and had the same problems. Next was a full weight 243, that I started to realize the importance of low recoil for learning, and for me. Problem was, that the rifle was too heavy for them to handle sometimes while hunting. All stocks were cut to correct length for them.

Next came a really lightweight 243, handling was great for them, but I did not expect the recoil difference with the difference in weight. That rifle caused more problems due to misses and just poor shooting. Stuck with that rifle for too long, because of the ease of handling for them.

After seeing forms reports of 223 for deer, with a few bullets listed specifically, i bought a couple 223s, and killed a couple deer myself. Deer died just as quickly, lacking blood trails, but not needed.

After having the kids shoot the 223, I started to see some changes in thier shooting, and them wanting to shoot more. In the end I settled on a 50ish grn load for them to practice, as full power hunting loads would still wear on them and they would get tired of shooting quicker.

Now, in all positions that they have adequate support to deal with the weight of the rifle, they outshoot me most every time.

I think there are many many people (myself included) who have some version of this story.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of the "6.5CM, 7mm-08 or .308 and let them grow into it, my kid handled it fine" crowd has not taught very many young kids to shoot well.

The consistency of this conclusion (your endpoint and mine) among people who have taught more than 2-3 kids to shoot and really focused on building good fundamental marksmanship skills is amazing.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

223 - i’m not on that bandwagon. Light bullets, small hole. Jittery/excited shooter often means lost game. As with 243, in hands of practiced and experienced shooters, is better.

there are hundreds of photos on this site completely disproving your small hole theory for the 223. in fact, 223/77 TMK holes tend to be amongst the largest holes photographed around here.

 

[eric1115]

What kind of range you want?

357 mag rifle is excellent. Low recoil, pretty quiet. 100 yd gun. Drops em dead. Yes i have and use mine.

350 Legend is almost excellent. About same recoil as 243. Not as loud. 200 yd gun. Cheap to shoot w $16/box target anmo. Get an 18 or 20 inch barrel, 16 is kinda short and can rock your world. I have ruger american ranch and is nice gun but for the 16 inch barrel.

300 blackout or 6.5 grendel or 7.62x39 are contenders - light recoil, mid-weight bullets.

243 is okay but you’ll probably lose a deer or two with it. Downside is light bullets. Shot my biggest deer/trophy muley w 243.

223 - i’m not on that bandwagon. Light bullets, small hole. Jittery/excited shooter often means lost game. As with 243, in hands of practiced and experienced shooters, is better.

You can download 308 or 6.5 or 7mm-08.

Stay away from muzzle brakes. Bad for you and everyone else shooting near you. I’m mostly deaf and those things cause pain. I leave range when those come out. Have definite opinions of folks using them at public ranges.

How many deer have you shot or seen shot with the 77 grain TMK?

It's a different thing altogether than the old .223 strategy (mono for maximum penetration/exit does make a small hole indeed and slow kills).

I've been more impressed with the kills produced by 77TMK and 108ELDM (at 6ARC velocity) than I ever was by light bullets in a 7mm-08.

I would 100% prefer .223/TMK wound channel over .300BO or .350 Legend.

100% agree on muzzle brakes.

 

[black dawg]

Easy.
Tikka 223
77gr tmk
I put mine in a chasis with a collapsible stock for small kids

What stock is this, and what is the minimum lop?

 

[hereinaz]

No personal experience with them, but the Howa mini action rifles in 6mm ARC are very interesting looking for a youth rifle.

My wife shoots a .243 and I think it's the noise that bothers her more than the recoil.

The 6 arc would be awesome for a kid on the game in Fl. And, I love my mini howa as a full grown adult.

I think the noice and concussion from muzzle blast are bigger issues than realized, even when recoil is minimal. Getting a suppressor changes all of that. It’s a suppressor that changed everything about shooting for me.

 

[Pharmseller]

No it’s not. Reduced recoil loads are almost always junk bullets with terrible ballistics.

Just shoot a lower recoil rifle at full power. 223 or 6 ARC are the top two if they work in your state.


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This statement is inconsistent with my experience.

RR Hornady 7mm-08 is pretty good stuff, and I’ve seen excellent results with both Remington and Hornady in 30-06.

I’d still go with .223 and either 77 TMK or 75 ELDM.

Make sure the stock fits him well. Proper fit is crucial.





P

 

[Marshfly]

This statement is inconsistent with my experience.

RR Hornady 7mm-08 is pretty good stuff, and I’ve seen excellent results with both Remington and Hornady in 30-06.

I’d still go with .223 and either 77 TMK or 75 ELDM.





P

What distance do those RR rounds drop below the minimum velocity for expansion? Compare that to 223 TMK or ELDx.


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[Pharmseller]

What distance do those RR rounds drop below the minimum velocity for expansion? Compare that to 223 TMK or ELDx.


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250 yards.

That‘s a long poke for a new shooter.




P

 

[Marshfly]

250 yards.

That‘s a long poke for a new shooter.




P

In my opinion that’s marginal and not nearly enough margin thus my statement earlier.


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[KenLee]

243 youth rifle w 80gr TTSX. 2 holes for the runners.