Caliber Crystal Ball - Can you predict the future?

[OMB]

In recent times, it’s been a bullet maker that has driven innovation and subsequent new cartridges. I feel that is the only driver, and hornady in particular. Seems they are the only true major firm looking at the trends in hunting and shooting sports and isolating gaps and opportunities. I just don’t see any of the firearms companies truly engaged - except Winchester and one the 350 legend project. Although a niche, it’s brilliant. Gone is the storied tale of big green and the 7mm rm.

I know you mentioned not what rokslide would buy, but if any wave of innovation is starting its certain members of rokslide applying real world experience and shattering many myths of what really works.

Scopes that actually work, shoot as much or more as archery, which means low recoil and low cost of practice, and certain bullets can transform small bores to kill on par with most traditional “short” action with typical controlled expansion designs with greater range…

The sacred cows that exist in arms makers limits their ability to depart from convention from my arm chair QB spot. And so many in media business pontificate garbage with know one really turning them off.

An obvious exception is UM and the 6UM. I unknowingly characterize as a cottage manufacturer and not a maga corporation is the only example. Jake is certainly plugged with Form, Ryan, Chris and others I don’t formerly know. This is the future imo. (Economic concerns throughout the globe I think makes capital investment risky too) - Parallel to Sitka FL etc for us to get better functional clothing.

Even tikka, whom must be aware of sky rocketing us sales, and with a little research would reveal folks are re-barreling to 6cm, 22 cm etc and something that actually would not require retooling or capital hasn’t happened…

So, great topic but I kinda believe rokslide community and several key members, this collection of folks are the driver.

I’d add this, coming from one of restricted states. Yes, the 350 legend is smarter than the 450 BM, 45/70, 444 marlin etc. - same basic range capabilities with the lowest recoil and most affordable ammo.

But, the are millions of 30-30, 32 ws and 35 rem the dont exceed in any way the range of a 350 legend except they have a bottle neck case. I’ve sent emails to our congress and DNR and will continue. Hornady should be at the forefront of this too as the only bullet company to offer a good new Bullet beyond exposed lead tip cup and core. There is a huge market in practice with those millions of weapons that could be used after decades of storage.

Agree with a lot on the straight wall stuff, I think 350 Legend is basically the straight wall version of 6.5 Creedmoor at this point, to the point I think it's sort of worthless for other manufacturers to jump in with their version (looking at you, 360 Buckhammer.)

I personally see the end game in a few of the states now allowing straight wall or larger than .35 calibers is to get them to legalize all rifle calibers (like Indiana did.) I understand the Fudd logic of restricting weapon types to shotguns back in the day in areas with a lot of flat ground/livestock/human population, but it's just not factual that using a 270 or 30-06 is less safe than a 12 gauge slug.

I switched over to a 45-70 from a 12 gauge with rifled barrel when one of the states I hunt every year allowed it. It's a fun nostalgic cartridge but it hasn't changed the way that I hunt, I'm still shooting deer at the same ranges as I did before. I've held off on getting a 350 Legend because there's been realistic talk of going the Indiana route and allowing rifles less than .35 sometime in the near future. If that happens, I'll happily sideline my 45-70 but it won't change how I hunt or the distances I'm killing deer at.

All that to say: the straight wall stuff is at an evolutionary dead end, I'm glad it happened, but just let me whatever weapon I want on eastern whitetails during firearms season.

 

[TomJoad]

I’m interested in the OPs suggestion around growth of suppressors. This is an interesting EU round that is completely designed around the suppressor:

8,5x55 BLASER​

Blaser CDP ammunition provides high shock effect, and penetration force while the weight remains the same. At the same time it optimally spares the game.

www.blaser.de

I haven’t seen a similar discussion in the US market around larger diameter bullets to get to speed faster in a shorter barrel.

Also wondering if suppressors will begin to wane? With the additional weight / balance challenges and the need to still rock hearing protection, maybe people will start going back to skinny steel barrels?

Disclaimer: I don’t use suppressors, or brakes (walnut/blue Luddite here)

 

[Unckebob]

So what?
How many animals are you shooting past 880 yards?

The 6.8 w stays to 1800 fps to 1k. So you e got a whole 120 yards more upset range.

You use it?


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I don't plan on shooting anything over 400 yards. I plan on hitting the animal with a faster/heavier bullet when I can.

No, I don't use the 6.8W. I use a 280AI which has similar ballistics to the 6.8W. I bought it because I am planning some hunts on larger animals (Nilgai, Moose, and Ellk) where my 243 and 6.5CM are probably inadequate.

If I was hooked up to a legitimate truth detector:
I would tell you that I think the short action 6.8W is a better choice but for my concern that other ammo/brass companies have elected to ignore it.

 

[wind gypsy]

I’m interested in the OPs suggestion around growth of suppressors. This is an interesting EU round that is completely designed around the suppressor:

8,5x55 BLASER​

Blaser CDP ammunition provides high shock effect, and penetration force while the weight remains the same. At the same time it optimally spares the game.

www.blaser.de

I haven’t seen a similar discussion in the US market around larger diameter bullets to get to speed faster in a shorter barrel.

Also wondering if suppressors will begin to wane? With the additional weight / balance challenges and the need to still rock hearing protection, maybe people will start going back to skinny steel barrels?

Disclaimer: I don’t use suppressors, or brakes (walnut/blue Luddite here)

Problem with this path is everyone is moving towards longer range capable which means high BC. Bigger bore without increasing bullet weight = lower BC, lower sectional density, and (I assume) more complexity in bullet design if you want expansion and penetration. Definitely a reasonable path under certain restrictions but if you can get sufficient velocity with a higher BC bullet it's a harder sell.

 

[Bluefish]

Problem with this path is everyone is moving towards longer range capable which means high BC. Bigger bore without increasing bullet weight = lower BC, lower sectional density, and (I assume) more complexity in bullet design if you want expansion and penetration. Definitely a reasonable path under certain restrictions but if you can get sufficient velocity with a higher BC bullet it's a harder sell.

I think the path Hornady is going, more twist, longer, higher bc would be applicable to medium bore as well as small bores. Current chamberings are quite slow twist rates.

 

[wind gypsy]

I think the path Hornady is going, more twist, longer, higher bc would be applicable to medium bore as well as small bores. Current chamberings are quite slow twist rates.

The "larger diameter bullets to get to speed faster in a shorter barrel" idea i was responding to is the opposite of what happens when you design cartridges around heavy for caliber bullets. 22 creed is faster than 6 is faster than 6.5 because the heavy for caliber bullets get lighter as the bore gets smaller. Now the opposite would occur if they all shot 88 grain bullets. The 6.5 with an 88 grain bullet would be the fastest and the 22 would be the slowest.

 

[Choupique]

I keep going back to the Ole 6.5x55 as being basically perfect, and it's one of the original centerfire cartridges.

It was doing fast twist and heavy bullets seated way long, way before it was cool. It's even better when you don't have to worry about not blowing up krag rifles

 

[Venatic]

I am fairly certain Hornady is already working on the 25 PRC and I think the new 22ARC might be interesting with a 25 caliber bullet pushed into it.

 

[Bluefish]

The "larger diameter bullets to get to speed faster in a shorter barrel" idea i was responding to is the opposite of what happens when you design cartridges around heavy for caliber bullets. 22 creed is faster than 6 is faster than 6.5 because the heavy for caliber bullets get lighter as the bore gets smaller. Now the opposite would occur if they all shot 88 grain bullets. The 6.5 with an 88 grain bullet would be the fastest and the 22 would be the slowest.

Note I didn’t say heavier, just longer. This latest round from Hornady is longer, yet not heavier. Yes thats a tough ask, but most 35 cal are 1:14-1:16 so can’t handle long projectiles. Move to 1:10-1:12 you can go longer. Same thing they did for the 6.5 cm vs a 260 rem. Shorter case to keep mag length with a longer projectile, faster twist to stabilize. Just has not been any demand for larger bores as they are typically low BC as recoil jumps too much for heavy for caliber.

50 bmg is over 1 on a g1 bc, but it has to be a 750g projectile. Even at its modest 2700 fps its hearty recoil.

 

[ropeup79]

338-300prc or 338-7prc. A 338 based off of the 300prc should be between 338 win mag and 340 Weatherby.

 

[Alwaysworking]

I predict the next saami approved cartridge to be released will be a 25 prc in a true short action compatible configuration.

 

[robtattoo]

Honestly, I'd just be tickled shitless if Speer would start making the 220gr .358 Hot-Cor again. No idea why they discontinued that one

 

[amassi]

338-300prc or 338-7prc. A 338 based off of the 300prc should be between 338 win mag and 340 Weatherby.

That’s the 33 nosler


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[BigStick]

A 8" 7CM with 180 ELD's,would be THE Giant Killer.............

 

[ropeup79]

That’s the 33 nosler


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Not quite, the PRC has a longer neck and slightly less capacity.

 

[Taudisio]

Not quite, the PRC has a longer neck and slightly less capacity.

.31” long neck on a 300prc is longer than .33” long neck on the 33 Nosler?
Plus why would you want a longer action just to get generally less velocity over the Nosler cartridges?

 

[ropeup79]

.31” long neck on a 300prc is longer than .33” long neck on the 33 Nosler?
Plus why would you want a longer action just to get generally less velocity over the Nosler cartridges?

Just speculation on my part that since the 300 PRC has a full caliber neck (.308), Hornady would do the same with a 338 and give it a .338 neck.

Not necessarily what I want but the 300 PRC has been more popular than the 30 Nosler so far despite the extra length.

 

[wind gypsy]

.31” long neck on a 300prc is longer than .33” long neck on the 33 Nosler?
Plus why would you want a longer action just to get generally less velocity over the Nosler cartridges?

Yeah, and the PRC might even have more case capacity (brass dependent) than the 33 nosler since 33 nosler case is smaller than the 30 nosler case.

33 nosler could afford some "hornady formula" on the throat though to get more out of it. It's got a notably shorter throat than even a SAAMI 6 creedmoor.

 

[Taudisio]

Just speculation on my part that since the 300 PRC has a full caliber neck (.308), Hornady would do the same with a 338 and give it a .338 neck.

Not necessarily what I want but the 300 PRC has been more popular than the 30 Nosler so far despite the extra leng

Yeah, and the PRC might even have more case capacity (brass dependent) than the 33 nosler since 33 nosler case is smaller than the 30 nosler case.

33 nosler could afford some "hornady formula" on the throat though to get more out of it. It's got a notably shorter throat than even a SAAMI 6 creedmoor.

Nosler might have throated it short to save the 3.34” cartridge length and the “normal” length-ed magazines that go with them. Not really throating them with the aftermarket/custom boys in mind. That just makes sense if I put myself in their shoes.

 

[ropeup79]

Nosler might have throated it short to save the 3.34” cartridge length and the “normal” length-ed magazines that go with them. Not really throating them with the aftermarket/custom boys in mind. That just makes sense if I put myself in their shoes.

I agree as to why they did it, but if Hornady did do a 338 PRC I would guess that they would use a longer COAL like the 300 PRC.
I’m not yet a PRC guy because of the extra length. I’d do a 300 WSM on a long action first but I as a reloader I have more options of seating depth etc.. I can see why a non-reloader wanting to shoot heavy factory ammo in a factory rifle would consider one of the PRC cartridges.