Caliber Crystal Ball - Can you predict the future?

[DisplacedHusky]

Probably, they load the 175/180 eld bullets in 7prc. I could see the 7creed with the 150/162 bullets elds. I threw a load together for the 150eldx and my wife's 7-08 and it was over 2900fps in a 20" barrel. I think @Ucsdryder shoots the 162eldm from a 7saum out to several hundred yards with good success, so I don't think a 500-600yd 7creed with one of those bullets wouldn't kill easily. For the folks who "want a youth elk rifle" but think 6.5 is too small, they can now choose a 7 and feel happy inside.

Factory 25creed seems obvious to me. They have the 134gr eldm with no .25 cartridge. I believe some if the game shooters like the 25creed and there's a .25 thread on here full of death.

I like the performance characteristics of the 7-6.5 PRC wildcat but I don’t see enough market space for it so be successful. Hornady could have released that round as the 7PRC or a 7mm in a 300PRC case but they shot the middle. Time will tell, but I think they made the right decision because it fits nicely in between the other PRC cartridges.

 

[DisplacedHusky]

My guess is regulation has more and more to do with it.
The vast majority of hunters live in heavily deveolped areas, not in the rockies and plains. As the remaining open space in the east, midwest and left coast becomes more suburbanized (and western cities become sprawling mega-suburbs like the colorado front range, phoenix, etc), and as further regs, right or wrong, affect hunters, and as more suburbanites and city dwellers either rediscover or discover hunting, I predict more and more people end up needing to move to 1) straight wall, slower cartridges that have a higher degree of perceived safety in more heavily developed areas, and 2) non-tox bullet requirements to move away from lead ammo.

Therefore I see a growing and increasingly large market for improved performance in straightwall cartridges and in performance and options in non-lead bullets. Im guessing we continue to see guns and cartridges designed for shorter-range midwestern and eastern hunters or those who are increasingly hemmed-in by suburbanization, and Im guessing we see further refinement of nonlead ammo that has better terminal performance than current offerings (hammer, DRT, etc) as well as rifles in existing cartridges but with faster barrel twists more optimized for longer, lighter-than-lead projectiles.

Not what anyone on this site wanted to hear, but…. Also, I think there is room for multiple of these “trends” at the same time. Its a big country.

Mac,
I think you are right on the additional offerings and refinement of non-lead projectiles.

I live out West some I am not well versed in the straight wall cartridges. Is there space in the market for anything new to be successful? It seems that the ammo companies may have shared your sentiment and released a bevy of new ones recently to fill this niches. Between legacy revolver cartridges, the 45-70 and the newly released cartridges, is there room for a new one and if so, what do you think would do well?

 

[Macintosh]

Mac,
I think you are right on the additional offerings and refinement of non-lead projectiles.

I live out West some I am not well versed in the straight wall cartridges. Is there space in the market for anything new to be successful? It seems that the ammo companies may have shared your sentiment and released a bevy of new ones recently to fill this niches. Between legacy revolver cartridges, the 45-70 and the newly released cartridges, is there room for a new one and if so, what do you think would do well?

Honestly I have no idea. I also live outside this belt, just closer to population centers so change is apparent sometimes because it happens fast simply being closer to so many people, especially now that every bruce and sheila out there can work remotely. I just thought it would add some perspective given the number of Hunters in the big picture that are NOT “western hunters” in the way that I picture that.
As far as there being room, I think a lot of people would have said there was no room in the market for any of the Creedmoor or PRC cartridges since in most peoples minds (maybe still), they duplicated existing cartridges. I don’t really know what the difficulties are with the existing offerings, or where the opportunity for improvement is, so I’m not the one to ask about whether there’s room or not. Maybe somebody who handloads for some of these cartridges and has a sense of where gains can be made already has a wish list for what they would like to see in a factory offering?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I'd actually like to see re-investment by major rifle manufacturers in 3 very popular cartridges, simply adding fast twist barrels to take advantage of new bullet technologies. There are very loyal followings out there for each.

.243
.25-06
.270

 

[wind gypsy]

I'd actually like to see re-investment by major rifle manufacturers in 3 very popular cartridges, simply adding fast twist barrels to take advantage of new bullet technologies. There are very loyal followings out there for each.

.243
.25-06
.270

The thing is the "modern" formula used by hornady in their cartridges also has a lot to do with chamber specs, namely throat design. There are already so many rifles out there with twists and throats based on an existing SAAMI standard that there isn't much reason for them to essentially design a new throat, twist, and ammo spec with the same name that's just going to result in people buying shit that doesn't work well in lots of rifles with the same name stamped on it. Almost easier to just use completely different cartridges to avoid the headache.

It's bad enough that people just buy 6.5 or 7mm ammo without looking at the word behind the bullet diameter.. Had to tell some guys at the store recently that 7.62x39 IS NOT the same as 7.62 NATO and would not work in their 308..

 

[amassi]

So a 7 or 8 twist 7-08? Problem is, the 7-08 doesn't have the capacity to drive the really high BC bullets at very good velocities. Let alone less powder in a 7-6.5CM.

Not for 175-190s those shine with at least the 280 rem capacity
It would be geared for the 162 eld and 166 a tip


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[amassi]

Probably, they load the 175/180 eld bullets in 7prc. I could see the 7creed with the 150/162 bullets elds. I threw a load together for the 150eldx and my wife's 7-08 and it was over 2900fps in a 20" barrel. I think @Ucsdryder shoots the 162eldm from a 7saum out to several hundred yards with good success, so I don't think a 500-600yd 7creed with one of those bullets wouldn't kill easily. For the folks who "want a youth elk rifle" but think 6.5 is too small, they can now choose a 7 and feel happy inside.

Factory 25creed seems obvious to me. They have the 134gr eldm with no .25 cartridge. I believe some if the game shooters like the 25creed and there's a .25 thread on here full of death.

I’d love to see them drop factory/ saami 25 creed and 25 prc (6.5 case)


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[Mountainrancher]

I’d love to see them drop factory/ saami 25 creed and 25 prc (6.5 case)


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The 25 prc is a little bit of a stretch as it would be pretty niche however I would love it. The 25 creed however may be a real possibility from hornady as it’s gained a lot of popularity in prs/nrl matches and hornady hates leaving money on the table.

 

[amassi]

The 25 prc is a little bit of a stretch as it would be pretty niche however I would love it. The 25 creed however may be a real possibility from hornady as it’s gained a lot of popularity in prs/nrl matches and hornady hates leaving money on the table.

I agree it’s doubtful to come out but the 25 and 6 prc are great cartridges with modern bullets


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[sndmn11]

I’d love to see them drop factory/ saami 25 creed and 25 prc (6.5 case)


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I forgot the prc was Hornady!

My .25 comments made me try and see if there a 25-308 I can turn her brass into.

 

[amassi]

I forgot the prc was Hornady!

My .25 comments made me try and see if there a 25-308 I can turn her brass into.

25 souper
And the 25 souper duper (AI)


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[sndmn11]

25 souper
And the 25 souper duper (AI)


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I saw that then it looked like dies were difficult in the 5 min search I did while getting gas.

I do wish the arc was a standard bolt face

 

[Shraggs]

In recent times, it’s been a bullet maker that has driven innovation and subsequent new cartridges. I feel that is the only driver, and hornady in particular. Seems they are the only true major firm looking at the trends in hunting and shooting sports and isolating gaps and opportunities. I just don’t see any of the firearms companies truly engaged - except Winchester and one the 350 legend project. Although a niche, it’s brilliant. Gone is the storied tale of big green and the 7mm rm.

I know you mentioned not what rokslide would buy, but if any wave of innovation is starting its certain members of rokslide applying real world experience and shattering many myths of what really works.

Scopes that actually work, shoot as much or more as archery, which means low recoil and low cost of practice, and certain bullets can transform small bores to kill on par with most traditional “short” action with typical controlled expansion designs with greater range…

The sacred cows that exist in arms makers limits their ability to depart from convention from my arm chair QB spot. And so many in media business pontificate garbage with know one really turning them off.

An obvious exception is UM and the 6UM. I unknowingly characterize as a cottage manufacturer and not a maga corporation is the only example. Jake is certainly plugged with Form, Ryan, Chris and others I don’t formerly know. This is the future imo. (Economic concerns throughout the globe I think makes capital investment risky too) - Parallel to Sitka FL etc for us to get better functional clothing.

Even tikka, whom must be aware of sky rocketing us sales, and with a little research would reveal folks are re-barreling to 6cm, 22 cm etc and something that actually would not require retooling or capital hasn’t happened…

So, great topic but I kinda believe rokslide community and several key members, this collection of folks are the driver.

I’d add this, coming from one of restricted states. Yes, the 350 legend is smarter than the 450 BM, 45/70, 444 marlin etc. - same basic range capabilities with the lowest recoil and most affordable ammo.

But, the are millions of 30-30, 32 ws and 35 rem the dont exceed in any way the range of a 350 legend except they have a bottle neck case. I’ve sent emails to our congress and DNR and will continue. Hornady should be at the forefront of this too as the only bullet company to offer a good new Bullet beyond exposed lead tip cup and core. There is a huge market in practice with those millions of weapons that could be used after decades of storage.

 

[DisplacedHusky]

In recent times, it’s been a bullet maker that has driven innovation and subsequent new cartridges. I feel that is the only driver, and hornady in particular. Seems they are the only true major firm looking at the trends in hunting and shooting sports and isolating gaps and opportunities. I just don’t see any of the firearms companies truly engaged - except Winchester and one the 350 legend project. Although a niche, it’s brilliant. Gone is the storied tale of big green and the 7mm rm.

I know you mentioned not what rokslide would buy, but if any wave of innovation is starting its certain members of rokslide applying real world experience and shattering many myths of what really works.

Scopes that actually work, shoot as much or more as archery, which means low recoil and low cost of practice, and certain bullets can transform small bores to kill on par with most traditional “short” action with typical controlled expansion designs with greater range…

The sacred cows that exist in arms makers limits their ability to depart from convention from my arm chair QB spot. And so many in media business pontificate garbage with know one really turning them off.

An obvious exception is UM and the 6UM. I unknowingly characterize as a cottage manufacturer and not a maga corporation is the only example. Jake is certainly plugged with Form, Ryan, Chris and others I don’t formerly know. This is the future imo. (Economic concerns throughout the globe I think makes capital investment risky too) - Parallel to Sitka FL etc for us to get better functional clothing.

Even tikka, whom must be aware of sky rocketing us sales, and with a little research would reveal folks are re-barreling to 6cm, 22 cm etc and something that actually would not require retooling or capital hasn’t happened…

So, great topic but I kinda believe rokslide community and several key members, this collection of folks are the driver.

I’d add this, coming from one of restricted states. Yes, the 350 legend is smarter than the 450 BM, 45/70, 444 marlin etc. - same basic range capabilities with the lowest recoil and most affordable ammo.

But, the are millions of 30-30, 32 ws and 35 rem the dont exceed in any way the range of a 350 legend except they have a bottle neck case. I’ve sent emails to our congress and DNR and will continue. Hornady should be at the forefront of this too as the only bullet company to offer a good new Bullet beyond exposed lead tip cup and core. There is a huge market in practice with those millions of weapons that could be used after decades of storage.

I hope I didnt come off as disparaging Rockslide members in any way. I am glad to have found the forum and have already learned so much. I think I was just saying that Rockslide members probably reload at a higher percentage that the general hunting public.

I agree that there is enough knowledge and experience here to inform interested parties about what they should spend some precious R&D money on to drive innovation. I would be pretty great if some idea on this thread or others was the catalyst for a new, successful product in the industry.

 

[Shraggs]

No you didn’t in any way

 

[DisplacedHusky]

After listening to the Hornady Podcast introducing their 22 ARC, I think that they have faith in their cartridge design and business model and we will see more of their cartridges introduced that fill small performance gaps in the market and/or use their recipe to modernize the ballistic performance of historically successful cartridges. The 22 ARC eats into some of the space of their 22 Creedmor and 6 ARC but they done seem to be worried about it. I see a .25 caliber round in the future and I wouldn’t be surprised if they try a .277 caliber round despite the 6.8 Western and .277 Fury. They are the the bully in room right now with the confidence to throw their weight around and take risks that others can’t.

 

[wind gypsy]

What I think would be cool - take a .284 case and reduce case body taper to creedmoor level, neck down to .257, and push shoulder back such that it holds 60-62 grains h20. That’s about halfway between creedmoor and 284/PRC cases.

I’d think that would get you into working OK with 2.95 mag length and be a nice balance between recoil, barrel life, and performance with the new 25 cal pills on a standard bolt face.

Easier button would be just moving shoulder back on a 6.5 PRC and necking it down.

 

[Unckebob]

RE .277 fury - What percentage of 556 weapons are actually committed to being replaced by the 277 now? I guess I never took it too seriously. Like with the various sniper rifles out there.. getting more 300wm and 338 lapuas instead of 7.62, then 300 norma, then 300 PRC, then..

I think the .277 Fury would be a big hit if the high pressure loads were commercially available with good hunting bullets. Until that happens, the 6.8 Western is a better choice.

If I was running Hornady, I would kick them both to the curb with a 270 PRC in a short action.

 

[DisplacedHusky]

I think the .277 Fury would be a big hit if the high pressure loads were commercially available with good hunting bullets. Until that happens, the 6.8 Western is a better choice.

If I was running Hornady, I would kick them both to the curb with a 270 PRC in a short action.

Yes please

 

[DisplacedHusky]

My kids play a lot of sports and there is this term, “Athletic arrogance“ that describes a kid that believes in his/her abilities so much that they try and often succeed at things on the court or field that other kids won’t attempt because of that extreme confidence. Love it or hate it, Hornady seems like they have a version of this in the cartridge development world right now.