Broadhead (fixed vs mechanicals)

[Smenning]

This week I’ve been talking though with a buddy and several of my clients about arrow and broadhead set ups. It’s seems like across the board everyone is ok using mechanicals on whitetails but not on elk. For elk you need a “heavy weight, single bevel, fixed two blade set up to punch through that impenetrable scapula”. I’m reminded by the .223 thread and how whitetail and elk just aren’t that different, and how much like the common misconception in rifle hunting leads people to big magnums and copper bullets instead of smaller, lighter recoil in more accurate cartridges with match bullets? Is this not the same as using and larger cutting area, more accurate, easier to tune mechanical? I’m not an expert, nor do I have the reps to have seen first hand. I’ve killed several elk with rifles and only one with my bow (fixed blade). This topic has me doing some mental gymnastics trying to decide on what’s best. Maybe @Formidilosus @Ryan Avery @PNWGATOR can weigh in as I believe they have all bow hunted but also subscribe to the stats on the rifle side.

 

[Dylan Sluis]

In my opinion I would shoot a lighter arrow at an elk than at a deer because of the nature of hunting. Deer are pretty much 40 yards and under where as elk can get to 60 plus easily. Obviously there are exceptions to this, thats just a general statement. I'm not saying stupid light for elk. Personally id probably shoot something mid 400's for elk where I am shooting just a tick over 500 for deer right now. And yes I agree with a fixed broadhead. But IMO you should be shooting 3-4 blade broadheads or if you do shoot a 2 blade it has to have bleeders to help open up the hole a little bit. Thats why IW single bevel with bleeders are super popular along with a QAD Exodus and like slick tricks and TOTA. You need a broadhead that penetrates well but also can't have a tiny cut on elk with how tough they are.

 

[Beendare]

IME, from seeing hundreds of critters die to every BH design, both fixed and Mech heads are effective.

Most mech head designs are less efficient thus they benefit from a higher energy setup (60# and up compound) and little bit more arrow behind them ( 430ish-500g)

Put a mech head on a 430g plus arrow that has been BH tuned….and its death on elk.

Now if you want max penetration, use one of the cut on contact fixed heads- again, BH tuned for perfect arrow flight.

I think most of the “ problems” we hear blamed on the BH are due to:

1) poor arrow flight- a tiny wobble wrecks penetration especially with the less efficient heads

2) bad shot locations which are resulting from many things;
A) bad form in the field, example is on a side slope shooting with all of your gear on
B) Improper arrow assembly - arrows wobble slightly
C) Rushed shot, nerves
D) guys assuming their BH flies like their target arrows

 

[Jbehredt]

The debate rages because there is no clear cut, correct answer. I’ve killed elk with both and would use a mechanical again if one really stood out to me. For me, IME it’s a debate over shorter, single side blood trails and slightly longer, two-hole trails. They both work out in the end. Usually.

 

[Smenning]

To me shot placement is king. I just have a really hard time believing that a double long shot with any broadhead won’t kill effectively. The question comes down to what gets them off their feet fastest.

 

[fatlander]

I think we can all agree that hitting what you’re aiming at is the goal.

Lost animals, in my experience, overwhelmingly come from not hitting what you were aiming for. What arrow system gives you the highest likelihood of hitting what you’re aiming at?

A moderately weighted (420-500 grains) arrow with a well designed mechanical. Fixed blades are more likely to not hit behind the pin when you’re in a hunting situation. Heavy arrows are less forgiving in yardage misestimations or just having a shot break higher or lower.

If you can get a 420+ grain arrow to do more than 265 FPS, you can (and probably should) shoot a well designed mechanical at whatever you want out of a tuned bow in North America.


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[Bump79]

I think we can all agree that hitting what you’re aiming at is the goal.

Lost animals, in my experience, overwhelmingly come from not hitting what you were aiming for. What arrow system gives you the highest likelihood of hitting what you’re aiming at?

A moderately weighted (420-500 grains) arrow with a well designed mechanical. Fixed blades are more likely to not hit behind the pin when you’re in a hunting situation. Heavy arrows are less forgiving in yardage misestimations or just having a shot break higher or lower.

If you can get a 420+ grain arrow to do more than 265 FPS, you can (and probably should) shoot a well designed mechanical at whatever you want out of a tuned bow in North America.


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This is well put. My rule of thumb is >410 grains for durability and <295 fps for flight forgiveness.

As others said - If you aren't BH tuned, then in my opinion you're not tuned. And if you're setup is so fast you can't reliably shoot a well designed fixed broadhead then in my opinion you're not shooting a forgiving setup even with the mechanical as few mechanicals are perfect. There's obviously exceptions but that's a good rule of thumb.

Also, there's zero reason to shoot a dull broadhead. Just touch those bad boys up real quick with a blade sled or at least strop them.

I'll also add that in my testing I really thought I could get away with a bit smaller vane on a mechanical. That's not really the case, it's still not as forgiving and you're kind of losing the biggest benefit of the mech. Forgiveness. My testing shows you still need >.465" height and >2" for a mechanical. Like a DCA Mini Sabre being the minimum. Maybe a little less if 4 fletch but not much.

 

[Zac]

This is well put. My rule of thumb is >410 grains for durability and <295 fps for flight forgiveness.

As others said - If you aren't BH tuned, then in my opinion you're not tuned. And if you're setup is so fast you can't reliably shoot a well designed fixed broadhead then in my opinion you're not shooting a forgiving setup even with the mechanical as few mechanicals are perfect. There's obviously exceptions but that's a good rule of thumb.

Also, there's zero reason to shoot a dull broadhead. Just touch those bad boys up real quick with a blade sled or at least strop them.

I'll also add that in my testing I really thought I could get away with a bit smaller vane on a mechanical. That's not really the case, it's still not as forgiving and you're kind of losing the biggest benefit of the mech. Forgiveness. My testing shows you still need >.465" height and >2" for a mechanical. Like a DCA Mini Sabre being the minimum. Maybe a little less if 4 fletch but not much.

Great point on the vanes. I absolutely hate when people hunt with tiny vanes regardless of what’s on the front.

 

[QuickTrigger7]

Great point on the vanes. I absolutely hate when people hunt with tiny vanes re

Great point on the vanes. I absolutely hate when people hunt with tiny vanes regardless of what’s up front,.

Zac, I've been hearing lots about this lately and how taller vanes will be better for fixed. Sound sike there really isn't a perfect vane for every situation. I'm wondering your opinion on Blazer Boeing vanes that come on most stock arrows how are those? Also does 3 or 4 fletchings have anything to do with this?

 

[Ho5tile1]

All I can say is the one thing I do know is a fixed head or cut on contact head don’t fail. That’s enough for me to never use a mechanical head. I use 550 grains on everything. I can shoot that 550 grain arrow out to 60 very easily out of my setup it’s going 282 fps which is plenty fast I just ordered some Gemini arrows to build to 508 grains I have an arrow I made up it’s 506 grains and it’s going 294 fps so ima give that a try this year out if one bow my other bow I will still use the 550 grain arrows. I have had some mechanicals fail in the past and since moving up in weight and iron will heads I’ve not lost an animal yet in the last 5-6 years


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[Bump79]

Zac, I've been hearing lots about this lately and how taller vanes will be better for fixed. Sound sike there really isn't a perfect vane for every situation. I'm wondering your opinion on Blazer Boeing vanes that come on most stock arrows how are those? Also does 3 or 4 fletchings have anything to do with this?

I'm not Zac - so I'll let him speak for himself. But Blazers are very good vanes if you have 1-3 degrees helical or angle on them. Straight they aren't very good. You need a little bit of twist but don't get crazy with it. You're just adding noise and drag for no real benefit.

There's good reason Blazers became the standard. I've gone down the rabbit hole and fletched up probably 30 different vane combos over the past 5 years. It's just not a road worth going down honestly. The blazer is a very universal vane, steers good, bucks the wind well and doesn't have a ton of drag. I wouldn't strip them off if they have a little angle to them. If they are straight I would. The downside is they are super loud especially if you've got 2d+ helical on them. I personally like a quieter vane.

Just shoot a 3 fletch with >.5" and >2" in length and you'll likely never notice the difference other than noise, adhesion and durability. Here's my short list in the order of noise low to high. All steer a fixed head well. In my opinion - If you need more fletch than any of these in 3 fletch you've got the wrong broadhead screwed on up front..
AAE Airrzr, Easton Diamond 280, DCA Super Sabers, Max Stealth, Q2i Predator, Goat tuff 2, Q2i Rapt-X, Q2i Fusion II, Max Hunters.

Q2i are the easiest to get to stick and are durable. Easton Diamond 280 is next. Goat tuff is an underdog and is durable/sticks well. Max Stealths and Hunters are awesome but heavy and adhesion can be hit or miss at times even with perfect prep. Airrzr's aren't that durable but lighter and stick well. Everything is a tradeoff. Hopefully this suits you as a decent guide.

 

[fatlander]

I'm not Zac - so I'll let him speak for himself. But Blazers are very good vanes if you have 1-3 degrees helical or angle on them. Straight they aren't very good. You need a little bit of twist but don't get crazy with it. You're just adding noise and drag for no real benefit.

There's good reason Blazers became the standard. I've gone down the rabbit hole and fletched up probably 30 different vane combos over the past 5 years. It's just not a road worth going down honestly. The blazer is a very universal vane, steers good, bucks the wind well and doesn't have a ton of drag. I wouldn't strip them off if they have a little angle to them. If they are straight I would. The downside is they are super loud especially if you've got 2d+ helical on them. I personally like a quieter vane.

Just shoot a 3 fletch with >.5" and >2" in length and you'll likely never notice the difference other than noise, adhesion and durability. Here's my short list in the order of noise low to high. All steer a fixed head well. In my opinion - If you need more fletch than any of these in 3 fletch you've got the wrong broadhead screwed on up front..
AAE Airrzr, Easton Diamond 280, DCA Super Sabers, Max Stealth, Q2i Predator, Goat tuff 2, Q2i Rapt-X, Q2i Fusion II, Max Hunters.

Q2i are the easiest to get to stick and are durable. Easton Diamond 280 is next. Goat tuff is an underdog and is durable/sticks well. Max Stealths and Hunters are awesome but heavy and adhesion can be hit or miss at times even with perfect prep. Airrzr's aren't that durable but lighter and stick well. Everything is a tradeoff. Hopefully this suits you as a decent guide.

Agree with all of this!

A short, high profile vane in a 3 fletch with decent offset will make fixed heads fly with field tips out of a bow that’s not perfectly tuned. That’s enough for me to never shoot anything else hunting, because they’re more forgiving.

Q2i is top of the heap in my experience as well.


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[Ho5tile1]

I also agree with bump79 and my 3 blazers with a slight offset work perfectly no need to go down that rabbit hole


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[CobraChicken]

In my experience speed and weight kill. My 545g 4mm fmj is going 287fps.

Ive shot elk, deer, antelope all with fixed and mechanicals. If I can get a good weight and have that thing cooking I use whatever flies the best out to 80 repeatedly. I have had the same exact success with iron will, day six, muzzys, minimags, sevrs, spitfire maxxs, etc.

Hit them in the boiler room and it'll be okay.

 

[Ho5tile1]

Cobra is correct you put a hole where holes dont belong especially in the pump station things die pretty fast even a field point through there will do it


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[Wellsdw]

My .02 cents from a former compound shooter turned trad guy, with a tracking dog.
I track way less fixed blade deer.
I contribute this to a couple things.
1) people attempt to fix flight problem’s with mechanicals
2) big holes are believed to be more likely to “ clip” something and cause death. (generally that clip may kill but leads to little to no blood trail)
3) new bowhunters start with mechanicals. That’s not saying that experienced guys aren’t killers with them.
4)possibly more folks shoot them. I doubt 4:1 though

this is all based off southeast whitetails
1 hole kills
2 holes recover.
Most people also aim to high and too far back also

Good luck this season

 

[Kularrow]

While shot placement is obviously important, if that were a variable we could control 100% of the time then we would all just kill them with field tips. We don’t because we all aren’t Levi Morgan and marginal shots happen. Hemorrhaging and blood loss is what kills. The only real benefit I see to tiny fixed blade are busting through the scap. More often than not, in a cold situation, when adrenaline is dumping from an elevated tree stand, to me the fixed blade has an increased likelihood of making a marginal shot. The mechanical while not as sturdy will most likely fly much more accurately and in the case of a marginal shot most likely produce more hemorrhaging and blood loss than a smaller fixed blade. I don’t really view broad selection from the shots you know you can make rather the ones you could do over but what’s done is done and you have to trust it to do the job.

 

[Ho5tile1]

Tune your bow and even the tuff shots with cut on contact heads fly great. I tune my heads while torquing the bow every way I can with my grip until I get them hitting real close to fp like with in an inch but hit the same spot without intentionally introducing torque. Has worked for me for the last several years. Imo mechanical heads are good for folks who don’t tune there stuff or are the guys that pick there bow up a week or 2 before the season starts. I understand wanting a big hole for the not so great shots Lord knows they happen even to Levi Morgan. we can’t control what the animals do once we loose that arrow. No way I’d ever go back to mechanical heads after seeing them fail to many times…


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[Axlrod]

In my opinion I would shoot a lighter arrow at an elk than at a deer because of the nature of hunting. Deer are pretty much 40 yards and under where as elk can get to 60 plus easily. Obviously there are exceptions to this, thats just a general statement. I'm not saying stupid light for elk. Personally id probably shoot something mid 400's for elk where I am shooting just a tick over 500 for deer right now. And yes I agree with a fixed broadhead. But IMO you should be shooting 3-4 blade broadheads or if you do shoot a 2 blade it has to have bleeders to help open up the hole a little bit. Thats why IW single bevel with bleeders are super popular along with a QAD Exodus and like slick tricks and TOTA. You need a broadhead that penetrates well but also can't have a tiny cut on elk with how tough they are.

Lots of elk die with 60+ yard shots, and a lot of them are recovered by scavengers...

 

[Zac]

Zac, I've been hearing lots about this lately and how taller vanes will be better for fixed. Sound sike there really isn't a perfect vane for every situation. I'm wondering your opinion on Blazer Boeing vanes that come on most stock arrows how are those? Also does 3 or 4 fletchings have anything to do with this?

Blazers are fine, I use them. There’s a good post by a guy named Stallone o can try to find. Also the Iron Will study is good. Basically they both found 3 fletch .5ish tall vanes around 2.5 to 3 degrees was optimal.

Vane Testing / What's the best vane for my arrow - John Stallone Days in The Wild

Finding the best vane for you arrow set up can be an absolute chore there are so many types and styles and things to consider and what it comes down to is fletching up 3 of all the types and styles you want to test and shoot them, shoot them inside, outside, in wind, your self , shoot them with...

johnstallone.me

I use to shoot 4 Blazers, or Blazer shaped vanes with fixed blades. I’m going to probably go back to this based on bare shaft testing I have been doing. I usually take a random bare shaft and tune it with a fletched at 40 or 50. I recently tried about 10 bare shafts and 2 fletched. Looked like a shotgun pattern at 40. I could alter some of them by messing with the nocks, but after a while it seemed futile. I don’t believe most carbon shafts are consistent enough to stack 10 bare shafts into a 2 inch circle. My hunch is the FMJ, X10, and pro comps may.