BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[sneaky]

This has been a HOT topic on various hunting related forums this year. Wyoming passed a bill this spring that'll empower the Game & Fish Commission to set rules on this subject. If any of you follow other forums, you'll know there's been individual(s) working in Wyoming's Region G & H selling 'scouting packages' with specific locations (GPS coords) of bucks and prices of these 'packages' are based on the size of the buck and the region they are found. And its also known that in the past that 'bounty' fees for a particular bucks' location were offered by some really needing to know. And yes, these individuals providing 'scouting packages' were not required to have any USFS permit or State business registry. It took a few tries through the State Legislature and I know from participating on other forums that BuzzH put in a great deal of time in helping with this legislation. Whether you agree or not, this was supported by more than just BHA. Below is how Wyoming's bill (yet to be signed into law) reads....


ORIGINAL House ENGROSSED
Bill No. HB0002

ENROLLED ACT NO. 54, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SIXTY-FIFTH LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WYOMING
2019 General Session


AN ACT relating to game and fish; providing rulemaking authority for the regulation of methods of taking wildlife; and providing for an effective date.

Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Wyoming:

Section 1. W.S. 23‑1‑302(a) by creating a new paragraph (xxxii) is amended to read:

23‑1‑302. Powers and duties.

(a) The commission is directed and empowered:

(xxxii) To adopt rules regulating, limiting or prohibiting the use of hunting technologies and the selling of wildlife geographic locations. "Hunting technologies" shall be limited to those technologies specified in subparagraphs (A) through (C) of this paragraph. No rule adopted pursuant to this paragraph shall apply to the taking of predatory animals as defined in W.S. 23‑1‑101(a) or to the use of hunting technologies by USDA APHIS wildlife damage management personnel when acting in their official capacity. Nothing in this paragraph shall be interpreted to limit any other authority of the commission provided in this act to regulate the taking of wildlife. Before promulgating any rule under this paragraph, the commission shall submit the proposed rule in writing to the joint travel, recreation, wildlife and cultural resources interim committee and appear before the committee upon request. Rules promulgated under this paragraph shall only apply to:

(A) Thermal or infrared imaging or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum;

(B) Real time video photography equipment or video imaging viewable remotely; or

(C) The selling of wildlife geographic locations.

Section 2. This act is effective July 1, 2019.

(END)

Shocking that Wyoming of all places would be against anything that hurts their subsidized outfitting industry. Once Wyoming requires EVERY user group to hire a guide in wilderness areas, or drops the NR hunting restriction in wilderness areas, then we'll listen.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[sneaky]

This was mainly brought about by resident hunters, not overly appreciative of non residents coming in and selling off locations of big deer for their own benefit and paying nothing to the state in doing so. The outfitters were not the ones who started this fyi. But they were asked to get on board and why wouldn't they.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Bothers them that taxpayers that fund public grounds in Wyoming use them too you mean? I believe the rest of the country pays plenty to the damn state of Wyoming than Wyoming does in return.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[SoDaky]

Amen.

 

[4ester]

Correct. One in particular is the owner of another hunting forum website and figured out by using his website to get him Max point holders so he could draw a tag every year, then by selling locations to deer he could scout for a bigger one for himself constantly while selling off other ones he was finding. A big difference between residents and non residents in any state I think is that residents take a certain pride in learning an area or areas and take that as respect of their own and they would never want to give it away. non resident on the other hand does not have that same respect so for them selling off an area that they can't hunt every year is far easier to do than a resident doing it. I spend every weekend in the summer in the Wyoming high country scouting bucks and there is plenty of areas I could send people to and guarantee finding a shooter buck, but I never would even if I'm not going to hunt that area this year because i put the sweat equity into learning it and don't give that away

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Why are we hiding his name. I will do it.

His name is Brian Latturner, owner of monstermuleys.com

We have run into him a few times. Every local I know that’s a serious hunter has some choice words for him, as do it. Hope I come across him someday stuck in a ditch.

Selling off a specific animal location to me is not right. If you want a big buck, go put in the time and effort to get one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[16Bore]

If guys weren’t obsessed with antlers, this would never be a problem.

Free doe tags, 4x fees for bucks.

 

[mntnguide]

Bothers them that taxpayers that fund public grounds in Wyoming use them too you mean? I believe the rest of the country pays plenty to the damn state of Wyoming than Wyoming does in return.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Just stating the facts behind how this was started. Not making a point. Relax

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Molon Labe]

The social revolution and upheaval, and rapid advance of technology have affected hunting. Not all of it is bad, though. Hunters as a whole are more individualustic than any other group I can think of, especially today. Just read the forums and you can see how different our opinions are. I don't truly fit in with any group and I've learned to accept it and try and be respectful and patient with others who annoy me or who I annoy. Some of us argue with each other even while we are in agreement. My wishes are that we don't alienate each other or new hunters. This is impossible, however why not be more mindful and tolerant of each other in what we say and do. And yes this is also directed at me. Bill

Well said.
Last year a dozen of my hunting buddies and I were gathered during deer season enjoying some beers and story telling for several hours.

Topics of politics, religion, truck brands etc were discussed without even slightly heated debates. Including a ton of back and forth on both viewpoints of subject matter. Later on caliber selection came up and I thought there was going to be a brawl.

It’s funny how we can have peaceful discussion on hot button topics like politics when some moron actually thinks 7mm mag is better than 30-06 for all around hunting rifle cartridge...some people. I’m never speaking to him again and I hope the wind is always at his back. *spits on the floor*

 

[16Bore]

Geez....what a tool, everyone knows that 270’s rule.

 

[robby denning]

If guys weren’t obsessed with antlers, this would never be a problem.

Free doe tags, 4x fees for bucks.

All right, since you propose that, let's take a look at what the antler obsessed guys spend vs. what they take from the resource. I'll use me as an example and the last four seasons.

-2015 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res. Ate the Non-res =$300 back to the resource
-2016 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $450 to Utah, $250 to NV. Ate everything except the $25 Idaho tag = $1,000 back to resource
-2017 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $300 on Colorado. Ate the Id Non-res = $300 back to the resource
-2018 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, Ate the Non-res tag = $300 back to resource

$1900 Total in unpunched tags

The unused tags weren't because I couldn't find bucks. Found killable bucks nearly every day of the hunt (or the scout), just not big enough to pull the trigger. We antler obsessed guys like to let 'em grow up.

None of this includes the non-refundable licenses or application fees of the 4-5 other states I apply for (probably around $500), so I'm pushing $2500 bucks last four seasons for harvesting 5 bucks at an average of $500/buck tag filled. I won't include the economic stimulus I provided when I turned that UT and NV tag back as they resell those, effectively getting the money twice.

Many other antler obsessed guys I know have a yearly receipt just like this. We just like a big set of antlers to go along with all that extra meat.

Does this get us close enough to the "4x fees for bucks" that you propose?

 

[bluetick78]

All right, since you propose that, let's take a look at what the antler obsessed guys spend vs. what they take from the resource. I'll use me as an example and the last four seasons.

-2015 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res. Ate the Non-res =$300 back to the resource
-2016 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $450 to Utah, $250 to NV. Ate everything except the $25 Idaho tag = $1,000 back to resource
-2017 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $300 on Colorado. Ate the Id Non-res = $300 back to the resource
-2018 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, Ate the Non-res tag = $300 back to resource

$1900 Total in unpunched tags

The unused tags weren't because I couldn't find bucks. Found killable bucks nearly every day of the hunt (or the scout), just not big enough to pull the trigger. We antler obsessed guys like to let 'em grow up.

None of this includes the non-refundable licenses or application fees of the 4-5 other states I apply for (probably around $500), so I'm pushing $2500 bucks last four seasons for harvesting 5 bucks at an average of $500/buck tag filled. I won't include the economic stimulus I provided when I turned that UT and NV tag back as they resell those, effectively getting the money twice.

Many other antler obsessed guys I know have a yearly receipt just like this. We just like a big set of antlers to go along with all that extra meat.

Does this get us close enough to the "4x fees for bucks" that you propose?

You forgot to cite the fact that you did not harvest any does, further allowing the resource to perpetuate. Under 16Bores proposal, we might as well cull all the does out of the population right now.

 

[robby denning]

You forgot to cite the fact that you did not harvest any does, further allowing the resource to perpetuate. Under 16Bores proposal, we might as well cull all the does out of the population right now.

I didn't think of that. I know a few families around here that would take those free doe tags, but we might not have many does left once they got done.

 

[ODB]

All right, since you propose that, let's take a look at what the antler obsessed guys spend vs. what they take from the resource. I'll use me as an example and the last four seasons.

-2015 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res. Ate the Non-res =$300 back to the resource
-2016 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $450 to Utah, $250 to NV. Ate everything except the $25 Idaho tag = $1,000 back to resource
-2017 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, $300 on Colorado. Ate the Id Non-res = $300 back to the resource
-2018 spent $25 on Idaho Res. tag and $300 on Non-res, Ate the Non-res tag = $300 back to resource

$1900 Total in unpunched tags

The unused tags weren't because I couldn't find bucks. Found killable bucks nearly every day of the hunt (or the scout), just not big enough to pull the trigger. We antler obsessed guys like to let 'em grow up.

None of this includes the non-refundable licenses or application fees of the 4-5 other states I apply for (probably around $500), so I'm pushing $2500 bucks last four seasons for harvesting 5 bucks at an average of $500/buck tag filled. I won't include the economic stimulus I provided when I turned that UT and NV tag back as they resell those, effectively getting the money twice.

Many other antler obsessed guys I know have a yearly receipt just like this. We just like a big set of antlers to go along with all that extra meat.

Does this get us close enough to the "4x fees for bucks" that you propose?

Let’s not pretend this is altruism.

 

[robby denning]

Let’s not pretend this is altruism.

I don’t really know how to use that word in a sentence, so I don’t understand what you’re saying. But if you’re implying I’m buying all those tags for the good of others, I’m not. But I’m not going to sit back and ignore that the really serious guys I know spend a lot of money on tags that they often don’t use.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Glendon Mullins]

Altruism is the principle and moral practice of concern for happiness of other human beings and/or animals, resulting in a quality of life both material and spiritual. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious traditions and secular worldviews, though the concept of "others" toward whom concern should be directed can vary among cultures and religions. In an extreme case, altruism may become a synonym of selflessness which is the opposite of selfishness.

According to Wikipedia, i think he is paying you a compliment??? either that or he has no clue what it means either and just wants to look quasi-intelligent on the forum??

lol carry on fellas

 

[robby denning]

Altruism is the principle and moral practice of concern for happiness of other human beings and/or animals, resulting in a quality of life both material and spiritual. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious traditions and secular worldviews, though the concept of "others" toward whom concern should be directed can vary among cultures and religions. In an extreme case, altruism may become a synonym of selflessness which is the opposite of selfishness.

According to Wikipedia, i think he is paying you a compliment??? either that or he has no clue what it means either and just wants to look quasi-intelligent on the forum??

lol carry on fellas

And I certainly don’t mean to be a smart Alec, I just don’t know how to use the word, especially with the negative “not”. So much for an English degree. It’s all good either way. We don’t all have to agree.

 

[Idaho_Potato]

idk some see it as bad thing, but i dont
some could argue for it being a good thing. look at how hard it is to obtain some tags now where 20 years ago some of those used to be general hunts all because more and more people want the tags. for people that are here to stay declining numbers might be the best news yet, even if it means paying more to support the system and im ok with that.

The price of resident tags and licenses blew me away when I moved to Idaho. $15 to hunt and $36 for an elk. This is after the recent price increase. It costs more to fill up my truck to get to where the elk are. I don't think a $200 resident elk tag would so much as put a dent in the hunter numbers either. If you can afford the gear and the gas to set up shop and live in the mountains for a week then $200 is nothing. Especially for the growing army of sheep wearing $1000 worth of camo, $500 boots, $800 backpacks, and carrying $2000 bows.

They could even do it based on income brackets. It's a state agency - they could figure out what we payed in taxes last year.

 

[sneaky]

The price of resident tags and licenses blew me away when I moved to Idaho. $15 to hunt and $36 for an elk. This is after the recent price increase. It costs more to fill up my truck to get to where the elk are. I don't think a $200 resident elk tag would so much as put a dent in the hunter numbers either. If you can afford the gear and the gas to set up shop and live in the mountains for a week then $200 is nothing. Especially for the growing army of sheep wearing $1000 worth of camo, $500 boots, $800 backpacks, and carrying $2000 bows.

They could even do it based on income brackets. It's a state agency - they could figure out what we payed in taxes last year.

Dude, people raised hell when they raised license prices $3 for the first time in almost 20 years. They'll march on the capitol if they tried $200.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[MattB]

Make them all buy guide licenses and meet the same requirements as guides (bonding, CPR). They simply should not be able to make money or gain in kind benefits based on a public resource.

 

[16Bore]

So 4 tags not punched (business expense?) means you’ve contributed more to the “resource” and the animal population (which isn’t yours) to let a “shooter buck” grow into something that’s more a “trophy”. Which in some way adds value to the animal’s life and the hunt itself. But really....being in the “industry” writing about a so so “shooter” buck isn’t much of a story...and a doe hunt isn’t a story at all and won’t receive any accolades....meaning click bait to attract customers.

Which essentially becomes the reason that selling GPS points is a “thing” and unethical to those not willing to pay for it, but OK for those who measure themselves by antlers.

Not implying that you do, but a hyped up gotta have it now type newbie with a pile of cash is looking only at point B and forgetting the value of the path which began at point A.

 

[ODB]

Altruism is the principle and moral practice of concern for happiness of other human beings and/or animals, resulting in a quality of life both material and spiritual. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious traditions and secular worldviews, though the concept of "others" toward whom concern should be directed can vary among cultures and religions. In an extreme case, altruism may become a synonym of selflessness which is the opposite of selfishness.

According to Wikipedia, i think he is paying you a compliment??? either that or he has no clue what it means either and just wants to look quasi-intelligent on the forum??

lol carry on fellas

Well, since you had to look up the definition in order to comment and you still don’t get the point, I’ll just let that stand on its own.

Not trying to “look” anything...just using the right word for the right idea.

If you need a full explanation, here it is: Let us not fool ourselves (or others) into thinking that spending a lot of money on tags that were ultimately not punched because we deemed the target animal inferior to our desires was an act of selflessness and was of greater benefit to the animals and other hunters than it was to us.

Or to put it succinctly: Let’s not pretend this is altruism.