BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[ethan]

I personally don't agree with selling way points.... at all. I'm not 100% anti guide either, although the only "guided" hunt I've ever been on was a bear hunt in Canada. That being said, I'm still waiting for a reply as to why BHA is not taking a stand on the Wyoming law that prohibits a non resident from hunting in a wilderness area, but does not prohibit the same non resident from fishing or backpacking in the same wilderness area. That's BS

 

[wyo2track]

This has been a HOT topic on various hunting related forums this year. Wyoming passed a bill this spring that'll empower the Game & Fish Commission to set rules on this subject. If any of you follow other forums, you'll know there's been individual(s) working in Wyoming's Region G & H selling 'scouting packages' with specific locations (GPS coords) of bucks and prices of these 'packages' are based on the size of the buck and the region they are found. And its also known that in the past that 'bounty' fees for a particular bucks' location were offered by some really needing to know. And yes, these individuals providing 'scouting packages' were not required to have any USFS permit or State business registry. It took a few tries through the State Legislature and I know from participating on other forums that BuzzH put in a great deal of time in helping with this legislation. Whether you agree or not, this was supported by more than just BHA. Below is how Wyoming's bill (yet to be signed into law) reads....


ORIGINAL House ENGROSSED
Bill No. HB0002

ENROLLED ACT NO. 54, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SIXTY-FIFTH LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WYOMING
2019 General Session


AN ACT relating to game and fish; providing rulemaking authority for the regulation of methods of taking wildlife; and providing for an effective date.

Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Wyoming:

Section 1. W.S. 23‑1‑302(a) by creating a new paragraph (xxxii) is amended to read:

23‑1‑302. Powers and duties.

(a) The commission is directed and empowered:

(xxxii) To adopt rules regulating, limiting or prohibiting the use of hunting technologies and the selling of wildlife geographic locations. "Hunting technologies" shall be limited to those technologies specified in subparagraphs (A) through (C) of this paragraph. No rule adopted pursuant to this paragraph shall apply to the taking of predatory animals as defined in W.S. 23‑1‑101(a) or to the use of hunting technologies by USDA APHIS wildlife damage management personnel when acting in their official capacity. Nothing in this paragraph shall be interpreted to limit any other authority of the commission provided in this act to regulate the taking of wildlife. Before promulgating any rule under this paragraph, the commission shall submit the proposed rule in writing to the joint travel, recreation, wildlife and cultural resources interim committee and appear before the committee upon request. Rules promulgated under this paragraph shall only apply to:

(A) Thermal or infrared imaging or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum;

(B) Real time video photography equipment or video imaging viewable remotely; or

(C) The selling of wildlife geographic locations.

Section 2. This act is effective July 1, 2019.

(END)

 

[TREE ‘EM]

I own a duck marsh and a farm where I hunt. I sell short term hunting leases and furnish a G map with pin drops where I have blinds and stands. I don’t require leases to utilize that info but it will increase their success without scouting themselves. Nobody seems to have a problem with that system.

Some folks simply can’t take the time off work to travel a thousand or two miles for scouting trips and any intel they can obtain will be the key to their success. One friend got his intel directly from SD fish, game & parks for his archery antipope hunts. 6 years with 100% success I might add. Is that wrong or unethical?

If your personal ethics don’t align with paying for information, then don’t buy it. While you’re at it you should quit paying for internet access, that’s an information conduit too.

 

[Mike7]

"The selling of wildlife locations", seems to be vague enough to allow for some lattitude (e.g. selling good hunting/habitat locations instead...because if this is not legal then how is a guide who is actually sometimes selling animal locations then legal?).

 

[Ratbeetle]

"The selling of wildlife locations", seems to be vague enough to allow for some lattitude (e.g. selling good hunting/habitat locations instead...because if this is not legal then how is a guide who is actually sometimes selling animal locations then legal?).

Because the guiding lobby is bigger than the scout package lobby?

 

[WV Mountaineer]

WV Mountaineer, there are many people that are much smarter than you involved in that potential lawsuit...with a metric chit ton of experience with public access. Probably have forgotten more about prescriptive easements, access research, and litigation on such issues than you and I will ever know, combined. They have done their due diligence, that's a fact.

This isn't their first rodeo and this isn't the JV team that's working on this one...

How's this going Buzz? With so many great minds working on it, should be some positive results for us hunters.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Think about it. Fat lazy assed hunter down at the hotel or his camper. Spotter goes out and spies the animal. Sends fat lazy assed hunter coordinates. Fat Lazy hunter walks to the spot and yes there may be some skill involved, but it isn't hunting. If you don't bound conditions strange crap will happen. Think there isn't a market for it? Look how many people pay to hunt animals for crazy sums in penned areas. Think about if said hunter can cut his cost and claim it was a fair chased hunt. Traditional outfitting isn't the same. Getting a client on game isn't always easy.

I wander how many BHA hunters pin locations of game hot spots, etc... on On X and share it with their buds? I also wander why getting clients on game isn't easy but, assuming that coordinates given to fat assed and lazy hunters somehow correlates with dead animals. Or, is it just sharing the woods with unguided fat assed hunters your problem?

 

[WV Mountaineer]

I am not in the finance department for the forest service or the BLM so maybe this is a moot point. However the argument of “I made sacrifices to live where I do so I can hunt so screw the non resident” is narrow minded. I would venture the intermountain west does not have anywhere near the revenue in taxes it takes to support its forest service and blm offices/fire fighting expenditures trail and road maintenance etc. People who live in New York’s taxes go to support our public playground in the west. You get to hunt public land because the entire country pays for the support of that land. So reality is you are getting a benefit paid by other people who will never experience it the way you do if you live and hunt there. Maybe be a little more understanding of them maybe wanting a little extra help?? Hell maybe I’m wrong, but I bet I’m not. Just some food for thought.

Just an after thought if anyone knows where the money for these things really comes from I’m not against being corrected.

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's gotta hurt the poster you quoted.


Federal government disperses tax revenue to these management agencies in a budget. The federal government also pays states with these public and federal lands, fees in lieu of tax revenue. Basically because of the generalized management strategy the "public" lands that encompass the states have. Which results in minimal local economic growth to the communities surrounded by these lands.


Reality and understanding leads most unbiased people to recognize that the locals living in these areas simply want to utilize the resources these lands offer. To make their communities, income, and over all life, EASIER

 

[String&stick]

Was it just me or did the reading of the article make it seem like they want to crack down on the selling of animal specific locations . . . IE giant 6x6 with chipped left eye guard, see pictures, see waypoints for where it was seen.

The way I read things it wasn't trying to stop the scouting package of, here are some drainages that regularly hold elk. . . It's trying to stop the $5,000 for GPS locations of bedding area and water hole frequented this specific monster buck/bull.


The way I read it I'm in support, if it eliminates general scouting packages I'm not in support, and guides should always have to play by the same rules!

 

[Trial153]

Was it just me or did the reading of the article make it seem like they want to crack down on the selling of animal specific locations . . . IE giant 6x6 with chipped left eye guard, see pictures, see waypoints for where it was seen.

The way I read things it wasn't trying to stop the scouting package of, here are some drainages that regularly hold elk. . . It's trying to stop the $5,000 for GPS locations of bedding area and water hole frequented this specific monster buck/bull.


The way I read it I'm in support, if it eliminates general scouting packages I'm not in support, and guides should always have to play by the same rules!

Your reading is just fine. You got it exactly right.


However the facts dont fit the agenda of the axe grinders on here, so they redefine the narrative.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

By premise, there is nothing stated that anyone here would disagree with. However, as quite a few BHA members have alluded to on this thread, there are multiple reasons THEY support it.


It’s easy to suggest things about people when it fits that agenda. However, it’s kinda like calling the kettle black. There are responses on this thread that is proof enough to believe people’s problems with this legislation had to do with it’s results and not the organization fghting for it.

 

[robby denning]

Maybe a few butt hurt individuals that think they hunt harder than everyone else and "deserve" their hunts more etc. But really? So you spend all your time scouting and hunting hard...don't use any maps/onx/toprut...never gather local intel...never got a piece of advice from someone else? Just a bunch of tough lone wolf hunters out there...making their own clothing...bows...spinning their own arrows. They don't even use vehicles and walk to work every day. Built their own home with their bare hands...didn't even use tools. Just pounded in wood pegs with their tough fists of fury. Come on people.

 

[robby denning]

This has been a HOT topic on various hunting related forums this year. Wyoming passed a bill this spring that'll empower the Game & Fish Commission to set rules on this subject. If any of you follow other forums, you'll know there's been individual(s) working in Wyoming's Region G & H selling 'scouting packages' with specific locations (GPS coords) of bucks and prices of these 'packages' are based on the size of the buck and the region they are found. And its also known that in the past that 'bounty' fees for a particular bucks' location were offered by some really needing to know. And yes, these individuals providing 'scouting packages' were not required to have any USFS permit or State business registry. It took a few tries through the State Legislature and I know from participating on other forums that BuzzH put in a great deal of time in helping with this legislation. Whether you agree or not, this was supported by more than just BHA. Below is how Wyoming's bill (yet to be signed into law) reads....


ORIGINAL House ENGROSSED
Bill No. HB0002

ENROLLED ACT NO. 54, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SIXTY-FIFTH LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WYOMING
2019 General Session


AN ACT relating to game and fish; providing rulemaking authority for the regulation of methods of taking wildlife; and providing for an effective date.

Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Wyoming:

Section 1. W.S. 23‑1‑302(a) by creating a new paragraph (xxxii) is amended to read:

23‑1‑302. Powers and duties.

(a) The commission is directed and empowered:

(xxxii) To adopt rules regulating, limiting or prohibiting the use of hunting technologies and the selling of wildlife geographic locations. "Hunting technologies" shall be limited to those technologies specified in subparagraphs (A) through (C) of this paragraph. No rule adopted pursuant to this paragraph shall apply to the taking of predatory animals as defined in W.S. 23‑1‑101(a) or to the use of hunting technologies by USDA APHIS wildlife damage management personnel when acting in their official capacity. Nothing in this paragraph shall be interpreted to limit any other authority of the commission provided in this act to regulate the taking of wildlife. Before promulgating any rule under this paragraph, the commission shall submit the proposed rule in writing to the joint travel, recreation, wildlife and cultural resources interim committee and appear before the committee upon request. Rules promulgated under this paragraph shall only apply to:

(A) Thermal or infrared imaging or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum;

(B) Real time video photography equipment or video imaging viewable remotely; or

(C) The selling of wildlife geographic locations.

Section 2. This act is effective July 1, 2019.

(END)

If Wyoming listens to all sides, doesn't just cave to the guiding lobby (like they have with the nonresident wilderness law) then signs this into law, I'll 100% support it. I doubt there will be a fair trail, but even if not, I'll 100% obey it.

 

[SoDaky]

Don’t/won’t use either but bha is in the Outfitters pocket on this one. Sad when self serving restricts freedom. If someone is dumb enuf to buy GPS points,please contact me,I have hundreds.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

I dunno if this is a prevalent activity of sharing 'spots' with all your pals. When I put leather down to find good spots, I'm not sharing it with anyone unless they are coming back in there with me. Same with fishing spots. i think I'm not alone on that. With all the discussions that are had about 'spots' I doubt hundred of folks are sharing way points on OnX with all their 'buds' all the time...doesn't seem to fit the current narrative of what folks say they do and how they protect their spots.

If you had to look at the bigger picture, and that hunting is in peril due to decreasing numbers, and this info sharing is helping folks who don't have the time to scout out a western (or w/e) hunt and have a successful hunting trip and continue to hunt....then maybe it's for the greater good? Maybe there needs to be a compromise? Only licenced guides can sell scouting info in their own designated areas? Limit on packages sold?

If it's all about who puts the effort in and what is fair chase, then there's 100's of other topics on the same note. Is using motorize vehicles fair chase? Drones? Baiting? Trail cams? Radios? Feed stations/plots?...there's probably bigger fish to fry in the fair chase/ethics realm.

 

[weekender7]

If you can see a difference in the ethics of hiring a guide to take you to the animal, telling you when to shoot and where to shoot, skinning said animal and packing out for you, taking you and said animal to the airport … vs
buying a GPS coordinate to go do it yourself.....
You have far better optics then me. I see zero difference in ethics myself.
There have been times I have been required to hire a guide by law and I did, but I prefer to do it all myself.

 

[bigdesert10]

There's also the camp that is opposed to the scouting packages and is also not a fan of guides. Certainly the guides have a stake in all this and there is some bias there among some, but not everybody that is against the scouting packages is pro-guide. Also, anybody that thinks that residents are filling each other in on all the honey holes are kidding themselves. You'd have better luck trying to kiss their wife than get their spots.

 

[Btaylor]

If you can see a difference in the ethics of hiring a guide to take you to the animal, telling you when to shoot and where to shoot, skinning said animal and packing out for you, taking you and said animal to the airport … vs
buying a GPS coordinate to go do it yourself.....
You have far better optics then me. I see zero difference in ethics myself.
There have been times I have been required to hire a guide by law and I did, but I prefer to do it all myself.

I tend to think this is more about the optics than the ethics. Non-hunters will almost certainly equate buying GPS waypoints to high fence pen hunts. Reality is that unless a critter has a broke back all that waypoint is going to do is get you in the neighborhood but the optics are not good.

 

[mntnguide]

If Wyoming listens to all sides, doesn't just cave to the guiding lobby (like they have with the nonresident wilderness law) then signs this into law, I'll 100% support it. I doubt there will be a fair trail, but even if not, I'll 100% obey it.

This was mainly brought about by resident hunters, not overly appreciative of non residents coming in and selling off locations of big deer for their own benefit and paying nothing to the state in doing so. The outfitters were not the ones who started this fyi. But they were asked to get on board and why wouldn't they.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Billinsd]

non residents coming in and selling off locations of big deer for their own benefit and paying nothing to the state in doing so.

So, non residents were traveling to Wyoming to scout deer and sell their locations? It wasn't locals, or residents of Wyoming?