BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[robby denning]

Another thing I really question is that you aren't putting hunters in areas where there are outfitters operating.

On all the National Forest's I've worked on in WY, CO, AZ, UT, NV, MT, ID...I cant recall a single portion of any of them that wasn't in an outfitters designated area. I also know that all BLM lands are open to permitted outfitters. In Wyoming I know that State ground can be leased by outfitters for 10 cents an acre. Not sure about Montana, but I believe its leasable as well.

So, with that being said, where are these areas that are being scouted on public land, but out of an outfitters area?

I don't know where those areas exist.

Further, if I were to pay someone for scouting, I would want to know where the best animal was because, there is no question if on NF land, that animal is in some outfitters "area".

In Idaho, where 90% of our work is, outfitters have designated areas/camps. It's illegal to operate outside of those. So let's say we do a package in unit 66A. I'm not putting hunters near Hell Creek as that is where the outfitter camps and consequently hunts the most.

In Wyoming H where I used to do packages, I keep people away from S. Fk Elk Creek because there is a huge outfitter camp there. One mountain away may be in his permit area, but we never see him there.

so that is what I"m trying to say when I say I don't put people on top of outfitters.

I don't agree that the best animals are in the outfitters areas. I've killed most of my big deer, but not all, where outfitters don't hunt. Maybe it's "in their area" but they don't go there.

 

[Comerade]

Just saw this [https://www.backcountryhunters.org/legislation_would_outlaw_selling_info_on_big_game_locations] today. I don't understand why this is something that BHA would be pushing. I think their ethics argument is laughable and even deceitful based on the outfitter exemption. It seems like they want you to believe that it is unethical to sell a GPS waypoint to a drainage with a good animal while it is perfectly ethical and "fair chase" to be guided to the same location and then shown the perfect position to shoot from.

I don't understand how this benefits BHA or its goals. I could see this helping guides and DIY hunters as this service seems to bridge the gap between the two. By outlawing this practice those with no time or knowledge for scouting would be pushed into guided hunts (good for guides). Because guided hunts are significantly more expensive than a scouting report those hunters may wait longer between hunts (good for DIY).

Am I missing something here? I think we would be much better served by BHA working towards the removal of guide requirements and clarifying/legalizing corner hopping. I think the removal of the guide restrictions in WY (wilderness areas) and AK (species requirements) directly align with their mission: "Backcountry Hunters & Anglers seeks to ensure North America's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing in a natural setting, through education and work on behalf of wild public lands and waters."

Just saw this [https://www.backcountryhunters.org/legislation_would_outlaw_selling_info_on_big_game_locations] today. I don't understand why this is something that BHA would be pushing. I think their ethics argument is laughable and even deceitful based on the outfitter exemption. It seems like they want you to believe that it is unethical to sell a GPS waypoint to a drainage with a good animal while it is perfectly ethical and "fair chase" to be guided to the same location and then shown the perfect position to shoot from.

I don't understand how this benefits BHA or its goals. I could see this helping guides and DIY hunters as this service seems to bridge the gap between the two. By outlawing this practice those with no time or knowledge for scouting would be pushed into guided hunts (good for guides). Because guided hunts are significantly more expensive than a scouting report those hunters may wait longer between hunts (good for DIY).

Am I missing something here? I think we would be much better served by BHA working towards the removal of guide requirements and clarifying/legalizing corner hopping. I think the removal of the guide restrictions in WY (wilderness areas) and AK (species requirements) directly align with their mission: "Backcountry Hunters & Anglers seeks to ensure North America's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing in a natural setting, through education and work on behalf of wild public lands and waters."

I belong to BHA and B&C and I do because they have a fair chase approach. I have no idea what a way point is, or how having an outfitter in the area is a problem . Put the pack on your back, and head up the mountain and find out what is out there on your own . I have worked for many outfitters and a backpack hunter has the advantage of mobility over a hunter horseback, imo.

 

[Ratbeetle]

Nope:

Common Questions about Our Scouting Services


Question: If we hire your service, will you put any other hunters in the area we are hunting?


Answer: No. Our overlap policy is to not put hunters within 3 miles of other scouting packages for the same year and same species. The information that we gather for your scouting package will be sold only under the contract agreed upon between Wescout4u.com and you for the year for which the contract was sold.

*typically we do about one group per unit.



We do about 15-20 packages a year (20+ hunters) so pretty close to what most outfitters do.

Also, I always hear "if everyone did scouting...." but the free market takes care of that. I've seen so many scouting services pop up over the years, then they're gone. If you're not doing a good job, you won't last.

Thanks for clarifying. I personally don't have a problem with this. I can see how it could be abused but I'm not for legislating something out of existence because some jackwagons might misuse it.

 

[bigdesert10]

I am not in the finance department for the forest service or the BLM so maybe this is a moot point. However the argument of “I made sacrifices to live where I do so I can hunt so screw the non resident” is narrow minded. I would venture the intermountain west does not have anywhere near the revenue in taxes it takes to support its forest service and blm offices/fire fighting expenditures trail and road maintenance etc. People who live in New York’s taxes go to support our public playground in the west. You get to hunt public land because the entire country pays for the support of that land. So reality is you are getting a benefit paid by other people who will never experience it the way you do if you live and hunt there. Maybe be a little more understanding of them maybe wanting a little extra help?? Hell maybe I’m wrong, but I bet I’m not. Just some food for thought.

Just an after thought if anyone knows where the money for these things really comes from I’m not against being corrected.

Nobody is stopping them from coming and enjoying it. There's nothing noble about exploiting that scouting information for profit at the expense of every other guy hunting that area and putting in the time and effort, and it's a stretch to act like there is.

 

[Okhotnik]

Nobody is stopping them from coming and enjoying it. There's nothing noble about exploiting that scouting information for profit at the expense of every other guy hunting that area and putting in the time and effort, and it's a stretch to act like there is.

So if someone hires a guide and outfitter ,who scout for their clients and they are paid quite well for doing so, are they lazy and exploiting the system too??

I do all my own scouting in many states but I now live out west. I used to live and work in NYC and DC and don’t begrudge guys that use this scouting service

Another good reason I dropped out of BHA.What a waste of their resources to fight this non issue. They should be concentrating helping with predator control legislation and habitat and good forest management. They really need to change their name as it is misleading IMO

 

[Zachlanning1]

This is one of the more interesting things I have read, one I didn’t know people sold pins, two what does the bha and or the government give a damn if people sell information. Would I ever buy a pin personally, probably not but who cares if someone is willing to pay for information. Isn’t that what are government does as it is anyway. This is a very weird topic, as much as I support the outdoors and conservation bha is really stretching it on this one. Unless they have guides making donations just like the government has lobbyists.

 

[elkduds]

How much permit/use fees do scouting service sellers pay to USFS, BLM, state land management agencies? Say compared to outfitters, fishing guides, rafting companies, offroad tour companies, sightseeing tours, festival organizers, ski areas, bicycle races, anyone who videos there, and everyone else who has to pull a federal or state permit to conduct business or events for profit or nonprofit, on public land owned by taxpayers? I read this thread, did not see this answered. But it is a long thread, Sorry to be redundant if I missed it.

 

[robby denning]

How much permit/use fees do scouting service sellers pay to USFS, BLM, state land management agencies? Say compared to outfitters, fishing guides, rafting companies, offroad tour companies, sightseeing tours, festival organizers, ski areas, bicycle races, anyone who videos there, and everyone else who has to pull a federal or state permit to conduct business or events for profit or nonprofit, on public land owned by taxpayers? I read this thread, did not see this answered. But it is a long thread, Sorry to be redundant if I missed it.

Forest service doesn’t require permits for scouting. BLM requires 3% of gross or $110, whichever is more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[elkduds]

Forest service doesn’t require permits for scouting. BLM requires 3% of gross or $110, whichever is more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you.

 

[dirtytough]

Buzz I know of a unit in Washington guides/outfitters aren’t permitted on NF. If I’m remembering correctly unit 44 in Colorado only has 1 outfitter. Could be way wrong on the Colorado one. Not sure if the outfitter is allocated the entire unit or some of the unit is off limits?

The money angle is funny. One hunter says he has sacrificed compensation to live close to his hunting area so he can scout it without paying someone to do it for him.

Another hunter that isn’t sacrificing compensation doesn’t live close so he pays someone to scout.

One hunter is paying way more in taxes, which in turn puts more money into our public lands than the other hunter that is making a “sacrifice”. Or subsidizing the hunter that lives close to the area.

The Alaska angle is also funny. I doubt hunters think twice about the “ethics” of paying Papa Bear or 40 Mile to drop them in a good spot for moose or caribou. Anyone think BHA is going to go after transporters next?

I’m just glad I work my butt off so the holier than thou types can sit there and type about all the sacrifices they make while the rest of the US subsidizes the public land for them. Your welcome

 

[Rich M]

Things are just gonna get more exciting as the numbers of folks continue to pour into the west to hunt.

The locals who made sacrifices to hunt will see changes - CO is gonna change the archery elk seasons and permits due to too many guys running around on OTC permits. Should be some interesting reads on that.

The guys who think everyone has to earn everything may well be old school folks with pet grizzly bears. But it is more likely just a macho thing and a way to try and be superior to others. Fly fishermen can be like this too.

If I was able to draw the tag, and really wanted a decent buck for the once in a lifetime trip, I'd drop the dime and have a reputable scouting service help me out. No problems there.

My issues are with the guys who want to keep everyone else out.

 

[bigdesert10]

Things are just gonna get more exciting as the numbers of folks continue to pour into the west to hunt.

The locals who made sacrifices to hunt will see changes - CO is gonna change the archery elk seasons and permits due to too many guys running around on OTC permits. Should be some interesting reads on that.

The guys who think everyone has to earn everything may well be old school folks with pet grizzly bears. But it is more likely just a macho thing and a way to try and be superior to others. Fly fishermen can be like this too.

If I was able to draw the tag, and really wanted a decent buck for the once in a lifetime trip, I'd drop the dime and have a reputable scouting service help me out. No problems there.

My issues are with the guys who want to keep everyone else out.

Nobody is trying to keep everyone else out, Rich. Feel free to prognosticate all you want, but I don't think I'm the only one on here who believes that guys who think there needs to be an easy button for everything in life are the bigger problem here. You want training wheels? Go hunt high-fence.

 

[Netherman]

After some more time thinking on this, reading thru this thread, and visiting Robby's site (http://wescout4u.com/). I haven't changed my thoughts. This legislation feels disingenuous and seems like those supporting this bill are pandering to the guiding industry.

I can't understand the "fair chase" argument while viewing a guided hunt differently. I'd be willing to entertain an argument related to profiting off of public lands without adequate compensation, but feel that additional regulation would be the answer rather than a ban.

While I doubt I would ever use this service as I really enjoy researching units and e-scouting (don't have enough vacation/priority to go in person), I think this is a valuable service to the hunting community. I can think of a few people I work with who might be interested in using a service such as this. A common sentiment I hear in MI is "I'd love to go hunt out west, but I wouldn't know where to go/don't have money for a guide". This service might get them out for their first western hunt. It could also help a hunter bridge the gap between guided and DIY (my thought on why this legislation exists).

For the everyone should do it the "right" (read their) way crowd. I'm a believer in traditional use and think we need to take a hard look at the impacts on technology, but pushing to outlaw something because you think they didn't "earn" it tough for me to get behind. I see this type of legislation as a slippery slope.

I think we can all agree that it should be illegal to put a GPS collar on a 200" mule deer and sell the radio collar frequency. This would be no where close to "fair chase" and universally condemned, but some things are no where near as black and white. Bans on shots greater than (your max distance) yards, firearm hunting in general, or compound bows all seem like personal preference to me. Just like this way point service, I think these things should left to individuals to exercise their own beliefs and ethics.

 

[Okhotnik]

Nobody is trying to keep everyone else out, Rich. Feel free to prognosticate all you want, but I don't think I'm the only one on here who believes that guys who think there needs to be an easy button for everything in life are the bigger problem here. You want training wheels? Go hunt high-fence.

Training wheels? Some guys need training wheels on their bows.

Why bring compound bows into this argument ?

 

[Rich M]

Nobody is trying to keep everyone else out, Rich. Feel free to prognosticate all you want, but I don't think I'm the only one on here who believes that guys who think there needs to be an easy button for everything in life are the bigger problem here. You want training wheels? Go hunt high-fence.

You seem reasonable - we just see stuff differently. Diff circumstances.

Lots of folks on both sides.

 

[TREE ‘EM]

The difference between GPS waypoints vs guiding is that you’re paying for information instead of the service provided. It seems to me that there is no longer putting boots on the ground to find your own animal and the effort behind that.

I guess I think about it like this. Imagine if you’re a guy that puts in his time scouting all summer, it gets to the season, and there’s somebody sitting there who just paid for the location. They didn’t put in the work, they just had the right amount of money.

I think it’s a good bill. IMO there’s just too much emphasis on the antlers anymore. Without that, selling coords isn’t even a business.

One of my friends had exactly that happen to him.

He put his time in scouting and located a nice muley.

He got out to his glassing spot just past daybreak only to find a GUIDE, HIS CLIENT AND CAMERA CREW in “HIS” SPOT ON PUBLIC GROUND... He whined and complained then I reminded him that “HIS” spot was on PUBLIC ground.

Tell me where the difference lies if it had been someone hunting by themself who had paid for a waypoint instead of a guide?

The proposed bill smells like welfare for outfitters to me.

Hiring guides or outfitters should be a choice, not a mandate. Same goes for local knowledge.

 

[Gobbler36]

I didn’t even know this was a thing till this thread....
Hunting has flown off the hinges... selling waypoints, are you kidding me???? Didn’t read through the whole thread but if they haven’t already I’m definitely on the need to ban side of the argument.

I might could see it for really coveted limited entry draw tags, but it doesn’t help anyone for otc hunts well except for the people to profit off such a thing.

Go scout yourself and if you can’t find the time or make the time then I guess that shows where your priorities are.

To me it has to do with with how far are we going to go before we draw a line in the sand.

It’s just not fair chase, I think Rinella put it best one time, he said “ I can’t really define fair chase but I know it when I see it” I think the other part was it’s kinda like porn, I can’t define it but I know it when I see it.

 

[huntineveryday]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned and I missed it. In Nebraska you can't use radios to communicate the location of game while hunting. I would imagine this line of thinking falls into trying to maintain fair chase. The ability to have someone pay for GPS coordinates of an animal seems to me to be related. You could pay for someone to send you real time coordinates of an animal during season. If using radios to communicate game location is illegal, it seems that using an app or service should be as well.

I haven't used any service like that, so I'm not sure if any of them provide real-time data, but if it's legal I can see it happening in the future if it isn't already. Simply showing up and being directed to where an animal currently is would certainly appeal to someone without the time or effort to scout.

 

[Comerade]

Actually the BHA I know isn't about keeping people out- just the opposite.
They do want to see increased public access and little or no motorized traffic in these areas.
This is how I learned to hunt anyways, powered by the shank's mare and a topographic map in my back pocket.

 

[Molon Labe]

Nice to see this back up. Of course there is a pretty good divide between the two sides. We are so tribal. haha.

I don't like the idea of selling scouting info at all. Not for me. Feels wrong and against my "hunting morals". But I am fine with people doing it. Good for the people that get it done and sell it to people. It is a very efficient transfer of capital. Work a ton and cant get time off to scout? Pay someone to do it for you.

I hire employees because they can get work done that I would not be able to handle on my own. Do my competitors have the right to complain that we are growing more than them because I have more employees or run a better business? Sounds pretty ridiculous.

Limiting the ability for small businesses to make money while not hurting anyone at all...sounds a bit socialist to me.

They are not hurting anyone by selling hunting packages. Maybe a few butt hurt individuals that think they hunt harder than everyone else and "deserve" their hunts more etc. But really? So you spend all your time scouting and hunting hard...don't use any maps/onx/toprut...never gather local intel...never got a piece of advice from someone else? Just a bunch of tough lone wolf hunters out there...making their own clothing...bows...spinning their own arrows. They don't even use vehicles and walk to work every day. Built their own home with their bare hands...didn't even use tools. Just pounded in wood pegs with their tough fists of fury. Come on people. Gotta draw the line some where. You are not better than someone else...we are all equal. Don't try to push your hunting morals on me under the guise of "ethics".

If someone can explain to me how selling hunting packages hurts other people or removes individual rights then I will change my mind.

I'm fine with BHA fighting this...if that is someone that is high on their list. Good for them...I guess. I just don't see the impact. Would I rather have them spend resources on opening up public land for access...of course! But they are picking the fights...while I am just ranting on the interwebs.

Have an excellent week everyone!