BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[Kootenay Hunter]

I wonder how many great hunting stories will start with:

"....I bought some GPS coordinates, loaded up the ATV and headed up to the spot...."

 

[robby denning]

Robby I think we actually agree. I think guides work hard. I am worried this change would undercut guides.

well, I can only speak for my service. We purposely stay out of the permitted outfitter areas in Idaho. That would only put our clients on top of the best hunters (the guides) in the area. If we know an outfitter is hitting an area hard, we go somewhere else.

 

[BuzzH]

well, I can only speak for my service. We purposely stay out of the permitted outfitter areas in Idaho. That would only put our clients on top of the best hunters (the guides) in the area. If we know an outfitter is hitting an area hard, we go somewhere else.

Who makes the determination that Guides are the best hunters?

That's hilarious.

 

[robby denning]

I wonder how many great hunting stories will start with:

"....I bought some GPS coordinates, loaded up the ATV and headed up to the spot...."

We don't sell GPS coords. We don't scout for trophy animals (although we've found a few). We sell scouting packages.

And a lot of the hunt stories I read in the mags and the web start with "headed up to the spot" on the ATV. Hey! I've done that before myself. A lot of people use ATVs, and trucks for that matter. But they're still hunters to me, as long as they obey the law.

Take away all the road hunters so many people despise, and we lose A LOT of license dollars.

 

[robby denning]

Who makes the determination that Guides are the best hunters?

That's hilarious.

Good point, but what I mean is that around Idaho, the outfitters know their permitted areas very well as do their guides. Personally, and for our clients, we don't want to compete with those guys. They have too many advantages.

 

[BuzzH]

I've never seen a time where a guide is going to do better dragging a client around than a good hunter on his own. I also know that many "guides" come from a guide school with wayyyy less hunting experience than their clients in many cases.

I do agree that they have the advantage of perhaps easier access, stock, access to premium private ground, etc.

But that's about where their advantage ends, IME.

 

[mcseal2]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but what Robby does sounds like what a lot of the transporters do in Alaska. You are paying them both for a plane or boat ride and for their knowledge. They have an idea where to drop you off where you have a decent chance of success or a reasonable travel route to such an area. You still have to do your homework and pick the right transporter. I have no issue with that. I hunted with an AK transporter in 2018 and am proud of the moose I took even if I didn't pick the spot on the map where our camp went. We left the hangar with several locations as options and when the first was occupied we went on to the second. If I'd have tried to pick GPS coordinates from home even after all the research I do I'd likely have picked wrong. Once we were in the area it was up to us to figure out how and where to hunt from there. I only get to go on one destination hunt a year and prefer to do my own pre season scouting trip in the lower 48. I can't fault the guy who can't make that happen and doesn't want to go in blind though after doing essentially the same in Alaska.

 

[robby denning]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but what Robby does sounds like what a lot of the transporters do in Alaska. You are paying them both for a plane or boat ride and for their knowledge. They have an idea where to drop you off where you have a decent chance of success or a reasonable travel route to such an area. You still have to do your homework and pick the right transporter. I have no issue with that. I hunted with an AK transporter in 2018 and am proud of the moose I took even if I didn't pick the spot on the map where our camp went. We left the hangar with several locations as options and when the first was occupied we went on to the second. If I'd have tried to pick GPS coordinates from home even after all the research I do I'd likely have picked wrong. Once we were in the area it was up to us to figure out how and where to hunt from there. I only get to go on one destination hunt a year and prefer to do my own pre season scouting trip in the lower 48. I can't fault the guy who can't make that happen and doesn't want to go in blind though after doing essentially the same in Alaska.

you could write our brochure!

Not once in 21 years have we called the hotel to wake some guy up to come shoot his animal. We're nowhere around come season, it's up to these guys to hunt the areas we've suggested. We don't even meet the hunters, and is why no guide license is required.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

We don't sell GPS coords. We don't scout for trophy animals (although we've found a few). We sell scouting packages.

And a lot of the hunt stories I read in the mags and the web start with "headed up to the spot" on the ATV. Hey! I've done that before myself. A lot of people use ATVs, and trucks for that matter. But they're still hunters to me, as long as they obey the law.

Take away all the road hunters so many people despise, and we lose A LOT of license dollars.

Yeah, I was just putting it into perspective, with some tongue in cheek. Nothing directed towards your operation. Nothing against motorized hunters. To each their own, hunting has many definitions across the land.

 

[bigdesert10]

“Quick buck?” You’ve never worked in my scouting business.

I guess you need to meet some of these guys who use our service.

Many of the comments on this thread are imagined stereotypes.

Most of the hunters I’ve served over the last 21 years are life-long 30’s to middle- aged hunters who don’t live near the area they want to hunt. And they have just as much right to be there as any bitter angry local (or other non resident) who thinks because they hunted there it’s “theirs”. Most hunters I meet in the woods are there because someone told them about that spot. I guess they don’t earn it either.

We lost 2 million hunters in the last years, do that one or two more times and we might lose hunting as we know it. If I can get a few more guys to stay in the sport, I’m gonna sleep well at night (even if I get paid to do it.)


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Robby, I've got loads of respect for you and your skill in mule deer hunting, but you've misinterpreted some of my statement. I'm not arguing that they don't have a right to be there. I'm not the good ol' boy type that thinks I own the mountain because it's close to my house. They can come on in for all I care, but put in the work once you're here.

I don't buy the "they don't have the benefit of living close" line. Tough titty. They prioritized making money and other things over living where they can hunt and/or devoting the time and resources to get good at it. I chose the opposite and I don't expect someone to hand me a bigger salary or better weather in spite of that decision. I understood the trade off. Furthermore, I'm fine with people sharing information if they so desire. I don't like people monetizing it. There's plenty of guys on this forum that don't live close and fought the battles to get proficient.

As far as hunter numbers go, we're already too small a group to carry any political weight in any given state. Maintaining the meager numbers we have won't make a bit of difference as far as shear political force goes. We hunt at the pleasure of the non-hunting public in any case. It's more important we have quality conservation-minded hunters than to have just a lot of hunters. No one has to agree with me, but I think these perspectives are worthy of articulation.

 

[jspradley]

I wonder how many great hunting stories will start with:

"....I bought some GPS coordinates, loaded up the ATV and headed up to the spot...."

Well considering some of the stories I hear in TX about shooting petting zoo critters....

 

[Btaylor]

Yeah, I was just putting it into perspective, with some tongue in cheek. Nothing directed towards your operation. Nothing against motorized hunters. To each their own, hunting has many definitions across the land.

And that's the problem, too many your way sucks mind sets out there among our ranks.

 

[Ratbeetle]

We don't sell GPS coords. We don't scout for trophy animals (although we've found a few). We sell scouting packages.

And a lot of the hunt stories I read in the mags and the web start with "headed up to the spot" on the ATV. Hey! I've done that before myself. A lot of people use ATVs, and trucks for that matter. But they're still hunters to me, as long as they obey the law.

Take away all the road hunters so many people despise, and we lose A LOT of license dollars.

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does a scouting package consist of?

 

[100percent]

Man........................................ Finally at the end of this diatribe (from both sides). Some of these post sound as loony and preposterous as the rhetoric that the antis use against us... Someone said in here that hunting used to be a Gentleman's sport. I am of the opinion that it still is but, there will always be a bad apple out there doing things that are on the edge of unethical. The most competitive sports draw out the most competitive people. Some break the law or code of ethics to give them an edge. It will always be like this in every sport. The current laws will catch those characters if they play too long.

Like it or not guides and guiding services are here to stay and satisfy a need to those who are plagued by bad logistics and other valid reasons. I would hate to see what license sales and tax dollars earmarked to support our industry would look like if we didn't have them out working everyday.

My concern is more laws.... In our case, Laws are created and enforced mostly by people who do not participate in our sport and are at best, apathetic to our needs. Legislation does not and will not favor the hunter in this day and age UNLESS it generates tax revenue (lots of it). Get used to that--we are the minority, guys and gals!

I am a hunter and hopefully you are too! We better figure out a way for us all to get along and pull in the same direction or WE WILL LOSE THIS SPORT IN OUR LIFETIME. Support the organizations that represent you best, make a point to call your elected officials to thank them for their support (don't call to bitch) and use your energy to rally against PETA and some of the other devils out there and cut this bullshit squabbling out!

A team never won by quarreling in the huddle!

 

[robby denning]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does a scouting package consist of?

the short form from our site wescout4u.com

We can provide either our Full scouting packages which include the most current scouting information gathered before you arrive or, in some units, our Informational packages based on previous years’ scouting.

With either option, you’ll know where the game is or is most likely to be, how to hunt the area, and where to camp. Many of the do-it-yourself hunters that use our service tell us that it helps take the newness off an area so they can get down to serious hunting sooner. We can only offer a few packages per year, so if you’re serious, contact us as soon as possible. We sell out before summer most years. See the links at top of page for your state of interest.

Map Package


The map packages for both our Full Scouting packages and our Informational packages consists of 1:100,000 topographical maps of your central hunting area and 1:126,720 forest service or 1:100,000 BLM maps of your greater hunting area or unit; or the equivalent. Most of the information that we gather will be written directly on these maps. In some cases, we include Google Earth images to help you understand how to best hunt a particular area. Don’t think of us as guys just “selling GPS coordinates.” Rather we use our prescouted information to consult with you on how to best hunt a particular areas. Also, we aren’t scouting for trophies. Occasionally we find a great animal, but that’s not our goal. Finally, we never accompany anyone into the field, so please don’t ask. We are not guides! If you need a guide on public land, hire the legal outfitter for that area.

No matter which package that you chose, all you’ll have to do is show up and start hunting.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

And that's the problem, too many your way sucks mind sets out there among our ranks.

Whether we like it or not, when we're out in the field hunting, we are ambassadors for all hunters and hunting. That does not mean that anything another hunter does should get the blind, unwavering support of all other hunters. This is what greys the line and creates all this controversy. We are all counting on our social licence to operate, which is issued by the general public. No situation is straight forward and all requires context to understand.

The secondary set of ethics above the regulations/law will always be a point of contention. What tends to tip the scale is the overwhelming support for one particular ideal. See Griz hunting in BC, Lion hunting in California, etc....that wasn't even hunters telling hunters what to do, that was non-hunters!

 

[bigdesert10]

Yet you did it anyway. AND you will use GPS, GoHunt, OnX, Top Spot, and other such tools to help yourself.

Robby - I thought the same thing about hunter numbers. Hunters used to be gentlemen, these days too many are over-competitive jerks.

The loss of hunters - loss of places to go and folks to go with, the crazy preference point game - planning hunts 5-10-20 years in the future, and putting up with this kind of competition crap. Sucks the fun right out of it.

Fixed it for you.

 

[BuzzH]

Another thing I really question is that you aren't putting hunters in areas where there are outfitters operating.

On all the National Forest's I've worked on in WY, CO, AZ, UT, NV, MT, ID...I cant recall a single portion of any of them that wasn't in an outfitters designated area. I also know that all BLM lands are open to permitted outfitters. In Wyoming I know that State ground can be leased by outfitters for 10 cents an acre. Not sure about Montana, but I believe its leasable as well.

So, with that being said, where are these areas that are being scouted on public land, but out of an outfitters area?

I don't know where those areas exist.

Further, if I were to pay someone for scouting, I would want to know where the best animal was because, there is no question if on NF land, that animal is in some outfitters "area".

 

[Ratbeetle]

the short form from our site wescout4u.com

We can provide either our Full scouting packages which include the most current scouting information gathered before you arrive or, in some units, our Informational packages based on previous years’ scouting.

With either option, you’ll know where the game is or is most likely to be, how to hunt the area, and where to camp. Many of the do-it-yourself hunters that use our service tell us that it helps take the newness off an area so they can get down to serious hunting sooner. We can only offer a few packages per year, so if you’re serious, contact us as soon as possible. We sell out before summer most years. See the links at top of page for your state of interest.

Map Package


The map packages for both our Full Scouting packages and our Informational packages consists of 1:100,000 topographical maps of your central hunting area and 1:126,720 forest service or 1:100,000 BLM maps of your greater hunting area or unit; or the equivalent. Most of the information that we gather will be written directly on these maps. In some cases, we include Google Earth images to help you understand how to best hunt a particular area. Don’t think of us as guys just “selling GPS coordinates.” Rather we use our prescouted information to consult with you on how to best hunt a particular areas. Also, we aren’t scouting for trophies. Occasionally we find a great animal, but that’s not our goal. Finally, we never accompany anyone into the field, so please don’t ask. We are not guides! If you need a guide on public land, hire the legal outfitter for that area.

No matter which package that you chose, all you’ll have to do is show up and start hunting.

Thanks. That last line gives me pause, but I really guess it's not much different than what someone does with a guide. Assuming of course, that you aren't providing the same information (talking full package) to multiple people. It sounds like you aren't but I wonder if others are.

A guide takes a single hunter or small number of hunters out at a time. I could see scouting packages being a problem if 30 guys buy the same info and all show up and blow out an area.

It's not for me, but I can see where some guys would certainly pay for that service.

 

[robby denning]

Assuming of course, that you aren't providing the same information (talking full package) to multiple people. It sounds like you aren't but I wonder if others are.

Nope:

Common Questions about Our Scouting Services


Question: If we hire your service, will you put any other hunters in the area we are hunting?


Answer: No. Our overlap policy is to not put hunters within 3 miles of other scouting packages for the same year and same species. The information that we gather for your scouting package will be sold only under the contract agreed upon between Wescout4u.com and you for the year for which the contract was sold.

*typically we do about one group per unit.

A guide takes a single hunter or small number of hunters out at a time. I could see scouting packages being a problem if 30 guys buy the same info and all show up and blow out an area.

We do about 15-20 packages a year (20+ hunters) so pretty close to what most outfitters do.

Also, I always hear "if everyone did scouting...." but the free market takes care of that. I've seen so many scouting services pop up over the years, then they're gone. If you're not doing a good job, you won't last.