Barrel Cleaning…data

[HingleMcCringleberry]

I am at approximately 800 rounds in my 6mm creedmoor barrel. I have never cleaned it or put anything inside the barrel besides bullets. Group size has stayed consistent. The 6.5 creedmoor barrel i replaced had an estimated 500-600 rounds through it. Same experience.

That is my anecdotal experience. I have a tikka 223 enroute and will be much more strict on documentation of the exact number of rounds shot through it. I have zero plans to clean it. I see what happens.

 

[TaperPin]

After carefully listening to all the pushback from documented accuracy testing to the point of burning out thousands of barrels, and what they found about cleaning I’VE BEEN CONVINCED ALL CLEANING IS A WASTE OF TIME!

Just kidding. *chuckle*

I found it interesting, but stopped listening halfway through. Not because it seemed fishy, but isn’t anything I wasn’t aware of since before Amazon was a thing, and the Hubble telescope was still on the launch pad.

I am still looking for a gently used 7 PRC takeoff barrel, so you flat earthers, I mean anti cleaners, don’t start now. I love buying barrels with a healthy carbon ring that people give up on.

Almost forgot - I’m also looking for two good 6.5 creed barrels to rechamber to 264 Win Mag, so don’t clean carbon rings from those new custom barrels - replace them.

I love America - folks don’t have to listen to the Man and become sheep. Rebels without a cleaning rod. . . or Rebels without a patch? Solvent free Rebels?

 

[bowrunner81]

I think it’s highly dependent on chamber and powder used, some never need cleaned and others you can end up in a bad way without cleaning.

I currently have a 6.5 creed barrel that won’t chamber a factory 140 or 147 eldm because of carbon that no amount of scrubbing will fix. Apparently shooting a few hundred Bergers with StaBall 6.5 will do that. You can clearly see the marks on the ojive where it’s contacting. I think running a reamer into it is the only way it’s getting back to good.

I also have a 300 wsm barrel that I have kept a pretty good eye on, along with having 50 rounds loaded from when it was new. Wasn’t intentional, ADG finally came in right after i had loaded 50 pieces of Norma. I shoot a few of them before/after cleaning to track velocity. It needs cleaned about every 70 rounds or pressure (and velocity) start to climb. I tried ignoring it and started getting into the danger zone on pressure. Cleaning brings it right back to where it should run.

I also have a 6 creed barrel that I still runs the same load and more or less the same velocity it did when it had 100 rounds on it that now has 700 and it’s never been cleaned.

Have you tried letting some of the carbon cleaner like bore tech c4 sit in it for a while? Ive never had that problem but Im interested in that. I also shoot some StaBall in my 6.5cm.

 

[ckleeves]

Have you tried letting some of the carbon cleaner like bore tech c4 sit in it for a while? Ive never had that problem but Im interested in that. I also shoot some StaBall in my 6.5cm.

I have not tried C4. Tried eleminator, wipeout and JB. It’s unfazed by those.

 

[Choupique]

What about carburetor cleaner?

 

[id_jon]

Can't believe we made it 3 pages without the stuck bullet misunderstanding not being corrected. They did not say that a fired bullet got stuck in the bore. A chambered bullet in an AR10 got stuck, assuming jammed into a "carbon ring", and when the case was extracted the bullet was stuck.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

@Formidilosus I just listened to the S2H pod where you talked about not cleaning barrels and came immediately here. I guess my only concern is forming a carbon ring while shooting suppressed… especially with something overbore. I have no experience with a carbon ring or even shooting out a barrel. Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

An 18” 6 CM barrel I had last year had never been cleaned or fired without a suppressor. At around 500 rounds I had groups open up vertically and velocity rise from around 2940 to 3000 fps, as well as a couple blown primers. (112 Match Burners, H4350)

I cleaned the barrel and had velocity drop back down to normal with the same recipe of hand loads.

Edit: After this, I dropped my powder charge down by 1 gr. It was hot before and I “feel” that by loading that way, any bit of carbon ring that formed would put an already hot round too close to the edge.

As I shoot 100% suppressed with overbore cartridges (6 & soon to be 22 CM), I plan on continuing to not clean, however keeping an eye on any carbon ring signs and watching my Garmin chrono during practice sessions as the round count goes up.

Probability of something catastrophic happening from not cleaning is extremely low, but it’s on you (Myself included) to ensure your own safety, regardless of whatever anyone else says.

 

[Jason Snyder]

An 18” 6 CM barrel I had last year had never been cleaned or fired without a suppressor. At around 500 rounds I had groups open up vertically and velocity rise from around 2940 to 3000 fps,

I had a 22” 6.5 CM barrel do something similar last summer. Groups opened up at about 400ish rounds. Cleaning with Bore Tech brought it right back to baseline.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

A good place to start looking would be the actual video.

THEN, you can draw your own conclusions on what they shared, and what you think their intent was with this video.

Appreciate the response and will get started on them taking notes on a boring airplane ride tomorrow.

In regards to cleaning, I thought their estimated ranges between cleanings were much higher round counts than what has been preached by traditional gun media. For those who only shoot a couple boxes a year in a given rifle, and that is a meaningful percentage of hunters, it would amount to many years between cleaning, if ever. They went out of their way to indicate there are excursions in both cleaning and barrel life, well outside the estimation ranges they presented.
I do wish they shared more details on what drove their cleaning. It was stated that they have an “inclusion zone” for pressure, velocity, and dispersion for each specific barrel using reference ammo and once outside that zone, it warranted cleaning or retiring the barrel. These values are to support their testing. He never said or implied you must clean once in the range, only that it is a window to start to “pay attention “.

Yeah I clicked on the YouTube video link last night for “part 3”. My family was sleeping and air pods were lost somewhere so couldn’t listen, I did read the top few comments and basically every comment was “please share the data” “please share the spreadsheet” “please make this data available on your site”.

So it made me feel less like an ass that those were the top comments I saw.

My intent here wasn’t to “attack” your thread. I’m a data and results driven type of person. In the results I’ve seen being a 20+ year cleaner and now a 3 year non-cleaner, to the tune of dozens of guns from .223 to .300 win mag and everything in between, using both hand loads and factory ammo, and with most guns being on their 2nd and some of them their 3rd or 4th barrels… I have not seen any sort of “early failures” “issues with carbon build up” or “loss of accuracy or barrel life” compared to the same guns and chamberings that used to regularly clean.

If somebody has some empirical data with larger sample sizes being measured, and have come to a different conclusion, I genuinely want to see what they’ve seen so I can learn and make an informed decision.

 

[TaperPin]

I hate to introduce anything factual into a lively discussion, but if anyone has ever wondered why some rifles carbon up and some don’t, it’s at least partially explained by the chamber tolerances. Factory rifles are SAAMI spec and that spec has a tolerance, which is easy to look up on SAAMI.org. I see Hornady has submitted the 6 GT, so that new rifle of yours has a chamber that looks like the 1st drawing. Notice the throat diameter is .2436” - that’s leaving .0003” gap around the bullet. Thin aluminum foil is .001” ish, so it’s 1/3 the thickness of thin foil. However, the tolerance listed down in the fine print is +.002”, so it can be as large as 1-1/3 pieces of foil all around the bullet. Where your gun falls only careful measurement can tell, but a 2 yr old can look at two gaps he’s trying to squeeze through and know one that’s 4x as wide has a lot more wiggle room.

Now look at the test barrel tolerance. The tolerance isn’t +.002”, but only +.0005”. Again, no mathematician, but Toddler-Taper can tell you something with 4x smaller gap is harder to get through. The 5 year olds here at Taper World Headquarters can even verbalize the difference in terms of Lincoln Logs, or Legos, but you get the idea.

If I was a Flat Earther, I mean anti cleaner, I’d point out the Hornady data applies only to tight chambered test barrels or minimum chambered custom barrels and not average hot-dog-down-a-hallway factory barrels.

 

[wind gypsy]

Copy. I remember him mentioning an elevation issue where he cleaned his barrel, but it turned out to be his Geovids. Might have missed the one you're mentioning. Morgun mentioned once he got bit by under-cleaning, I think a 6.5 Creedmoor. I think I've had issues with under-cleaning my Seekins 6 Creed. I'll be investigating that further too.

I'll try to go back and find it when I have time - it was probably 2 years prior to the more recent rangefinder issue they discussed this past spring IIRC.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

.

If I was a Flat Earther, I mean anti cleaner,

This doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

[Team4LongGun]

This doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You deleted 98% of his post, along with data images. He is absolutely adding content to the discussion. Whether you agree or not.

 

[TaperPin]

This doesn't add anything to the discussion.

*Christmas hugs*
I’m sorry if that hurt your feelings - this is the season of brotherhood and good tidings to all, whatever tidings are, where we all should try not to push other peoples’ buttons. To the Flat Earthers with clean barrels that were offended, hugs to you to.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Can't believe we made it 3 pages without the stuck bullet misunderstanding not being corrected. They did not say that a fired bullet got stuck in the bore. A chambered bullet in an AR10 got stuck, assuming jammed into a "carbon ring", and when the case was extracted the bullet was stuck.

This makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You deleted 98% of his post, along with data images. He is absolutely adding content to the discussion. Whether you agree or not.

I’m assuming he meant more the “name calling” not adding anything to the discussion.

I personally found it just a little funny, but I’ve seen much better quips from TP over the years

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

*Christmas hugs*
I’m sorry if that hurt your feelings - this is the season of brotherhood and good tidings to all, whatever tidings are, where we all should try not to push other peoples’ buttons. To the Flat Earthers with clean barrels that were offended, hugs to you to.

It wouldn’t be Christmas if grumpy old grandpa TP wasn’t sitting in his chair calling people out and making the women cry!

Merry Christmas buddy!

 

[Team4LongGun]

I’m assuming he meant more the “name calling” not adding anything to the discussion.

I personally found it just a little funny, but I’ve seen much better quips from TP over the years

I agree-just want avoid "selected quoting" or editing of comments, as it could become a slippery slope game of twisted words/context.

Notice I never bother adding my opinion.....you guys can be relentless!

 

[HighUintas]

I hate to introduce anything factual into a lively discussion, but if anyone has ever wondered why some rifles carbon up and some don’t, it’s at least partially explained by the chamber tolerances. Factory rifles are SAAMI spec and that spec has a tolerance, which is easy to look up on SAAMI.org. I see Hornady has submitted the 6 GT, so that new rifle of yours has a chamber that looks like the 1st drawing. Notice the throat diameter is .2436” - that’s leaving .0003” gap around the bullet. Thin aluminum foil is .001” ish, so it’s 1/3 the thickness of thin foil. However, the tolerance listed down in the fine print is +.002”, so it can be as large as 1-1/3 pieces of foil all around the bullet. Where your gun falls only careful measurement can tell, but a 2 yr old can look at two gaps he’s trying to squeeze through and know one that’s 4x as wide has a lot more wiggle room.

Now look at the test barrel tolerance. The tolerance isn’t +.002”, but only +.0005”. Again, no mathematician, but Toddler-Taper can tell you something with 4x smaller gap is harder to get through. The 5 year olds here at Taper World Headquarters can even verbalize the difference in terms of Lincoln Logs, or Legos, but you get the idea.

If I was a Flat Earther, I mean anti cleaner, I’d point out the Hornady data applies only to tight chambered test barrels or minimum chambered custom barrels and not average hot-dog-down-a-hallway factory barrels.

View attachment 810568View attachment 810567

Yes, you are correct.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

*Christmas hugs*
I’m sorry if that hurt your feelings - this is the season of brotherhood and good tidings to all, whatever tidings are, where we all should try not to push other peoples’ buttons. To the Flat Earthers with clean barrels that were offended, hugs to you to.

You did not hurt my feelings but making derogatory quips doesn't add anything to the discussion to your point. It actually does the exact opposite.