Balancing Opportunity and Age: The Impact of Buck Point Restrictions

[cutty98]

Reading and listening to all this info about APR's recently got me thinking. What kind of impact do you all think a point restriction on larger bucks would have on a mule deer population (Buck age class, total numbers, etc...)? By larger bucks I mean a restriction such as 3 point or smaller, rather than 3 point or bigger.

I'm not aware of anywhere where this has been implemented on a large scale for mule deer but if it has I would love to know about it. I suppose that Utah does a similar thing with their LE elk units. Spike tags are often abundant while hunting pressure on the upper age classes is heavily restricted.

Could this be an effective way to manage for an older age class while still maintaining plenty of opportunity? What impacts do you think this would have on deer with "poor" genetics (big mature two points for example)?

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[CorbLand]

Are you saying that there would be two types of buck tags? Say a four point or better and a three point or smaller tag.

 

[ProStaffSteve]

Pretty sure you can listen to biologists break down this science pretty in-depth in rokcast, meat eater podcasts & more. I believe findings indicate its meaningless to the population. To add, CWD will kill an animal without fail 2-3 years after first infection (this is the latest i have heard).

So APR cause meat hunters to stay in field longer & they kill older class bucks that horn hunters would have rather stayed longer. Young deer are easier to replenish so shooting younger bucks is largely more sustainable. Especially with CWD dropping old bucks, increasingly APRs dont make sense. Sadly.

In MN i got to watch white tail during APRs, first off it screws with natural distribution of antlers you wouldnt believe how big 3x3 deer can get. Wide thick & how many are out there. BUT it made hunting way more fun because there was a buck around every corner. Downside is you need to sit and count points when you should be taking a shot, lots of bucks that were legal get away while under the microscope. F&W also have to deal with people shooting those smaller bucks,.. cant be efficiant for them and a dick move to ticket a guy who pulled trigger in good faith.

But it was fun, I shot my first 8 pt buck the year after it was lifted. So that year just after APRs is imo my favorite time to hunt, During APR, take it or leave it

 

[Raghornklr]

They implemented it in Washington and it has not helped the herd. Some real big forkies running around.

 

[cutty98]

Are you saying that there would be two types of buck tags? Say a four point or better and a three point or smaller tag.

Yeah, something of that nature. Say a 2 point or smaller buck tag and an any buck tag. In this case the 2 point or smaller tag would be given out more liberally while the any buck tag would be more restricted. I am in no way advocating for this, just curious about the impacts.

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[CorbLand]

Yeah, something of that nature. Say a 2 point or smaller buck tag and an any buck tag. In this case the 2 point or smaller tag would be given out more liberally while the any buck tag would be more restricted. I am in no way advocating for this, just curious about the impacts.

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Generally APRs are implemented to save young bucks allowing them to grow. To go more liberal on 2 point or smaller would have the direct opposite effect. You would be killing the age class that you need to grow into bigger bucks. Kind of counter productive.

I never have and probably never will advocate for an APR of any type but I have often wondered if you did something opposite of what you are proposing what the outcome would be. Say a four point or bigger tag with more liberal allocation. Any deer tag with less liberal allocation. Would basically say if you are willing to restrict yourself, you can have more opportunity and if you just want to kill a deer you can but less opportunity. Let people have a choice of what they want to do.

 

[cutty98]

Pretty sure you can listen to biologists break down this science pretty in-depth in rokcast, meat eater podcasts & more. I believe findings indicate its meaningless to the population. To add, CWD will kill an animal without fail 2-3 years after first infection (this is the latest i have heard).

So APR cause meat hunters to stay in field longer & they kill older class bucks that horn hunters would have rather stayed longer. Young deer are easier to replenish so shooting younger bucks is largely more sustainable. Especially with CWD dropping old bucks, increasingly APRs dont make sense. Sadly.

In MN i got to watch white tail during APRs, first off it screws with natural distribution of antlers you wouldnt believe how big 3x3 deer can get. Wide thick & how many are out there. BUT it made hunting way more fun because there was a buck around every corner. Downside is you need to sit and count points when you should be taking a shot, lots of bucks that were legal get away while under the microscope. F&W also have to deal with people shooting those smaller bucks,.. cant be efficiant for them and a dick move to ticket a guy who pulled trigger in good faith.

But it was fun, I shot my first 8 pt buck the year after it was lifted. So that year just after APRs is imo my favorite time to hunt, During APR, take it or leave it

I definitely see what you're saying about APR's and their impacts. However, my original post proposed a different type of APR, not the type you're discussing.

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[cutty98]

Generally APRs are implemented to save young bucks allowing them to grow. To go more liberal on 2 point or smaller would have the direct opposite effect. You would be killing the age class that you need to grow into bigger bucks. Kind of counter productive.

I never have and probably never will advocate for an APR of any type but I have often wondered if you did something opposite of what you are proposing what the outcome would be. Say a four point or bigger tag with more liberal allocation. Any deer tag with less liberal allocation. Would basically say if you are willing to restrict yourself, you can have more opportunity and if you just want to kill a deer you can but less opportunity. Let people have a choice of what they want to do.

I definitely see what you're saying about killing the younger age class. However, aren't the younger age classes the ones with higher mortality rates anyways? By being more liberal with younger bucks tags one could potentially be dipping into the realm of compensatory take.

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[sndmn11]

I thought Utah had a few areas where there is a trophy hunt and a trash buck hunt?

 

[CorbLand]

I definitely see what you're saying about killing the younger age class. However, aren't the younger age classes the ones with higher mortality rates anyways? By being more liberal with younger bucks tags one could potentially be dipping into the realm of compensatory take.

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Very well could be an argument for that. I am not smart enough to know if its valid or not.

 

[ProStaffSteve]

The Owyhees in Idaho has this meet buck/trophy tag for mule deer. I dont think there is one with a gap year for 3x3 deer, pretty sure its fun for people with the trophy tag, Having a gap year for 3x3 sounds like a good way to make big 3x3s and do nothing positive for the heard besides shooting out the genetics of the big monsters

 

[CorbLand]

I thought Utah had a few areas where there is a trophy hunt and a trash buck hunt?

On some of the LE units for deer, they offer a cactus buck hunt.

 

[sndmn11]

On some of the LE units for deer, they offer a cactus buck hunt.

Do you think the bucks grow bigger there because of that? Doesn't matter?

 

[NRA4LIFE]

We have 4-pt restrictions for WT on my property in MO. I've been watching this 3-pt walk right past me nearly every day for the last 2-3 years. And he's huge now. No brow tines. I think he stuck his tongue out at me last year.

I think it's worse for mule deer. I see a lot of huge 2-pts every year here in WA (3-pt rule). I would like to see some sort of youth/disabled/65 or over season to get rid of some of them. I don't know how it would be implemented, but I think it could help the overall bigger buck numbers.

 

[CorbLand]

Do you think the bucks grow bigger there because of that? Doesn't matter?

Most of them are down in Southern Utah and that's not a portion of the state I hunt and dont really pay attention to.

If I am not mistaken, the cactus buck requirement is at least 50% of the antlers must be covered in velvet (they are late season hunts). So your not really killing young deer per say. You are killing deer that people arent going to wait 10 plus years to kill. It does take a mouth off the landscape that from a hunting stand point is "undesirable" for many. Probably an argument to be made that it allows for more feed and habitat for bucks to get bigger.

It also helps get people out of the point pool that just want to be out. Ultimately I think the hunt was implemented as more of an available oppurtunity for those that want more than a biological/habitat decision but I could be wrong.

I went the LE elk route, which was stupid.

 

[sndmn11]

Most of them are down in Southern Utah and that's not a portion of the state I hunt and dont really pay attention to.

If I am not mistaken, the cactus buck requirement is at least 50% of the antlers must be covered in velvet (they are late season hunts). So your not really killing young deer per say. You are killing deer that people arent going to wait 10 plus years to kill. It does take a mouth off the landscape that from a hunting stand point is "undesirable" for many. Probably an argument to be made that it allows for more feed and habitat for bucks to get bigger.

It also helps get people out of the point pool that just want to be out. Ultimately I think the hunt was implemented as more of an available oppurtunity for those that want more than a biological/habitat decision but I could be wrong.

I went the LE elk route, which was stupid.

We might not be talking about the same thing. I thought there were/are some trophy units (maybe the P and H areas) where you can draw a trophy buck tag but a "management" buck tag could also be drawn. I have it stuck in my head that a management buck is/was less than 3points on a single side.

 

[cutty98]

We have 4-pt restrictions for WT on my property in MO. I've been watching this 3-pt walk right past me nearly every day for the last 2-3 years. And he's huge now. No brow tines. I think he stuck his tongue out at me last year.

I think it's worse for mule deer. I see a lot of huge 2-pts every year here in WA (3-pt rule). I would like to see some sort of youth/disabled/65 or over season to get rid of some of them. I don't know how it would be implemented, but I think it could help the overall bigger buck numbers.

Again, this does apply to traditional APR's but perhaps not to what I proposed.

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[CorbLand]

We might not be talking about the same thing. I thought there were/are some trophy units (maybe the P and H areas) where you can draw a trophy buck tag but a "management" buck tag could also be drawn. I have it stuck in my head that a management buck is/was less than 3points on a single side.

You are right, there are management hunts on some units and that is three points or less on one side. I forgot about those.

 

[sndmn11]

You are right, there are management hunts on some units and that is three points or less on one side. I forgot about those.

Do you think those help deer get bigger?

 

[CorbLand]

Do you think those help deer get bigger?

I dont know enough about those units and the way they are managed to know whether it helps with bigger deer or not. I have LE Elk points so I pay attention to general season deer units more.

Personally, I dont think that it would make a statistically significant dent in the overall size of deer's antlers. I also think it provides an additional opportunity for people that are willing to shoot those bucks. I would also venture to guess that it takes deer off the landscape so you dont run into carrying capacity issues and removes them from the gene pool when it comes to breeding.

Personal thoughts but not something that I really pay attention to.