Age Restrictions in Lieu of APRs?

[KenLee]

Kill em all. Lil ones are easier to tote out

 

[cuerro viejo]

View attachment 711603

This one is right at his ears on width..should’ve let him grow another year??

outside spread of 20” would cover most 2-3 year old bucks. I’m not saying I agree with it but I’m currently under that regulation and it’s working pretty decent. Seeing an up tick in age class

There will always be the exception that never makes 20” outside requirement, but it’s pretty minimal

 

[Jaden Bales]

outside spread of 20” would cover most 2-3 year old bucks. I’m not saying I agree with it but I’m currently under that regulation and it’s working pretty decent. Seeing an up tick in age class

There will always be the exception that never makes 20” outside requirement, but it’s pretty minimal

Boy, I have a 180" gross buck on my wall that doesn't break 20" and if I couldn't have taken him home, I'd have thrown a fit.

Where's this regulation? Texas?

 

[Jaden Bales]

Given that antler point restrictions have proven to be largely ineffective at managing age class, what about limiting take to bucks say 2.5 years or older? Maybe even older for more coveted tags? While it might not be an option for general/OTC type hunts with hundreds or thousands of tag holders, I feel that implementing such a rule on LE/Controlled hunts might be feasible? The potential problems surrounding this are obvious and numerous. However if it could be implemented successfully on any scale, age class would stand a good chance at improving, right? I've no doubt that some sub-legal bucks would lose their lives in the process, but the potential upside seems worth it to my caveman brain...

Hear me out. Honest question. Why do we need to manage for age class at all?

 

[littlebigtine]

Hear me out. Honest question. Why do we need to manage for age class at all?

That’s what I was gonna ask!! Why? Lol.


I’ll be less sarcastic and also say that age class is probably not what you’re wanting to regulate if you want BIG bucks. Instead, your want to protect HABITAT. Winter and summer. Limit PREDATION in some units where lions are impactful. And hope that Mother Nature provides good WEATHER. normal winters as far as snow pack and temperature along with wet, cool summers that provide highly nutritious browse.

Those three ingredients typically equal healthy robust does that produce healthy robust fawns that might become big ol bucks.
The older age class is there. You really just have to find them.
Southeast Idaho/Wyoming will be a prime example of this in the coming years. For the last 20 years some of the oldest crustiest bastards have been drug off those mountains. Now the harvest of these older age classes will fall not because of hunting. Because of WEATHER.
Remember
WEATHER
HABITAT
PREDATION

SAY IT WITH ME NOW


Is the moderator of the post a western fella?

 

[Jaden Bales]

That’s what I was gonna ask!! Why? Lol.

I'd go out on a limb and say managing for minimum buck ratios has worked for managing bucks since we started managing hunter numbers in the early 1900s. If buck ratios are not below objectives, I figure most of this is about whether or not an individual "feels" like there's enough age class for them or not, and I'm awfully nervous about going down that route.

 

[littlebigtine]

I'd go out on a limb and say managing for minimum buck ratios has worked for managing bucks since we started managing hunter numbers in the early 1900s. If buck ratios are not below objectives, I figure most of this is about whether or not an individual "feels" like there's enough age class for them or not, and I'm awfully nervous about going down that route.

I agree, it sounds very subjective… hmmm
I think I’ll stick with science?

 

[roadrunner]

So, a big fork horn would be legal?

 

[cuerro viejo]

Boy, I have a 180" gross buck on my wall that doesn't break 20" and if I couldn't have taken him home, I'd have thrown a fit.

Where's this regulation? Texas?

I have one also.

20” outside rule is what’s in parts of TX. I was completely against its implementation, but after a few years I can say that I’m seeing better age class representation over all area wide. I think it works better for WT’s(15”) than Mulies but it does work. TX does have a program to get out of the 20” rule but it’s much more biologist and hunter/LO entailed( population counts, browse studies, ratio and age class, basic carrying capacity) managed lands program

End of the day best way to grow older deer is less tags. But nobody wants to hear it

 

[Fireflyfishing]

Nope

 

[long hunter]

Kill em all. Lil ones are easier to tote out

Yep everyone one wants to bitch but no one wants to help, simple answer stop all mule deer seasons for about 5 years. Let them either re-establish or just disappear.

 

[SageFlat]

Hear me out. Honest question. Why do we need to manage for age class at all?

Because I want to see and kill mature deer. Especially if I’m hunting a more coveted tag/area. Yes I realize that weather and habitat are the overarching issues. But there seems to be an uptick in people taking “just a buck” off of what are historically more premium units these days. In many cases I feel that’s a result of social pressures or people not wanting to “waste” their tag money which I understand. I’ve been guilty of it myself. To me, I’d feel better about coming home empty handed if I literally couldn’t find a legal buck because of age or width restrictions. I imagine many others would feel the same? Maybe not.

 

[Jaden Bales]

I have one also.

20” outside rule is what’s in parts of TX. I was completely against its implementation, but after a few years I can say that I’m seeing better age class representation over all area wide. I think it works better for WT’s(15”) than Mulies but it does work. TX does have a program to get out of the 20” rule but it’s much more biologist and hunter/LO entailed( population counts, browse studies, ratio and age class, basic carrying capacity) managed lands program

End of the day best way to grow older deer is less tags. But nobody wants to hear it

...but isn't TX like 97% private ground? Personally, I'd be ticked if I was a landowner and wanted to take first-time hunters out and had an excess of bucks but that regulation was in place. It's a struggle to help adult-onset hunter friends in Wyoming on 4-point deer on public lands, but I figure there's a tragedy of the commons problem on public ground out west at least.

 

[Jaden Bales]

Because I want to see and kill mature deer. Especially if I’m hunting a more coveted tag/area. Yes I realize that weather and habitat are the overarching issues. But there seems to be an uptick in people taking “just a buck” off of what are historically more premium units these days. In many cases I feel that’s a result of social pressures or people not wanting to “waste” their tag money which I understand. I’ve been guilty of it myself. To me, I’d feel better about coming home empty handed if I literally couldn’t find a legal buck because of age or width restrictions. I imagine many others would feel the same? Maybe not.

I would challenge you to re-address your approach to mule deer hunting and commit to the craft - no matter the tag.

Read old mule deer hunting books like @robby denning's or Walt Prothero's, or David Long's or Mike Eastman's. Listen to the mule deer podcasts like anything with Brian Barney, @Travis Hobbs, Ryan Lampers, etc and you'll get a mindset shift. It's never about the tags or the herd. Its about the approach and mindset.

I have hunted and now guided some of the hardest draw areas and the easiest draw OTC areas in the west and it's undeniable - mature bucks are hard to find no matter where you are or the management scheme they implement.

Start with that baseline and you'll enjoy your time looking for mature mule deer much much more.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Improve habitat and nutrition, reduce predation, get fawn birthweight up -> more deer and bigger bucks.

 

[SageFlat]

I would challenge you to re-address your approach to mule deer hunting and commit to the craft - no matter the tag.

Read old mule deer hunting books like @robby denning's or Walt Prothero's. Listen to the mule deer podcasts like anything with Brian Barney, @Travis Hobbs, Ryan Lampers, etc and you'll get a mindset shift. It's never about the tags or the herd. Its about the approach and mindset.

I have hunted and now guided some of the hardest draw areas and the easiest draw OTC areas in the west and it's undeniable - mature bucks are hard to find no matter where you are or the management scheme they implement.

Start with that baseline and you'll enjoy your time looking for mature mule deer much much more.

Solid advice, I appreciate the perspective. Admittedly, I’m a tag-filler who likes the idea of an easy fix for finding a mature deer. Not a great recipe for success in the realm of big mule deer... I’ve located a handful of good ones and am beginning to realize what it takes to get them killed. For now, I’ll likely enjoy chasing every critter under the sun and learn about deer as I go. At 26 I’ve got a bit before I deserve a good one anyhow!

 

[Jaden Bales]

Solid advice, I appreciate the perspective. Admittedly, I’m a tag-filler who likes the idea of an easy fix for finding a mature deer. Not a great recipe for success in the realm of big mule deer... I’ve located a handful of good ones and am beginning to realize what it takes to get them killed. For now, I’ll likely enjoy chasing every critter under the sun and learn about deer as I go. At 26 I’ve got a bit before I deserve a good one anyhow!

It's all part of the process amigo! Totally understand that perspective.

Happy to share some links if you'd like over PM.

And I'm with ya. If you start shooting giants too early, you'll never have enough space on the wall for them all.

 

[sndmn11]

Because I want to see and kill mature deer. Especially if I’m hunting a more coveted tag/area. Yes I realize that weather and habitat are the overarching issues. But there seems to be an uptick in people taking “just a buck” off of what are historically more premium units these days. In many cases I feel that’s a result of social pressures or people not wanting to “waste” their tag money which I understand. I’ve been guilty of it myself. To me, I’d feel better about coming home empty handed if I literally couldn’t find a legal buck because of age or width restrictions. I imagine many others would feel the same? Maybe not.

It is no coincidence that in Colorado the "trophy" elk units have no antler point restrictions. Similarly, you might find a lot of folks who hunt units with antler point restrictions that can find a lot of not quite there bulls, but nothing they can legally whack.

My unsubstantiated logical-to-me opinion (usltmo) is that restrictions lead to unhealthy ratios of "age class" and ultimately unhealthy herds. My (usltmo) also says that if one wants to see toads cruising around, he should cheer on the person who shoots a small buck because that person just passed on dropping a big buck the next day. They also took a mouth off the winter range so that big buck can eat easier. My (usltmo) also says that if there is a healthy proportion of all ages, then there will be proportional killing of those ages and seemingly the most likely scenario of consistency.

 

[Rich M]

You can't figure 18 inches on a mule deer. Them ears are huge.

The thing is to get folks to stop shooting little bucks if they want a chance at a big one. I don't care what the odds of a young buck dying are, if someone shoots him, he aint never gonna get any bigger.

 

[CorbLand]

Because I want to see and kill mature deer. Especially if I’m hunting a more coveted tag/area. Yes I realize that weather and habitat are the overarching issues. But there seems to be an uptick in people taking “just a buck” off of what are historically more premium units these days. In many cases I feel that’s a result of social pressures or people not wanting to “waste” their tag money which I understand. I’ve been guilty of it myself. To me, I’d feel better about coming home empty handed if I literally couldn’t find a legal buck because of age or width restrictions. I imagine many others would feel the same? Maybe not.

Not to be a dick but your basically saying that you dont have the self control to keep your finger off the trigger, so everyone must be regulated so you can fill a tag on a mature deer or dont feel bad about eating a tag.

Eating tags is part of the process. I am 6 tags in a row deep.

Big deer get killed on every unit in the West each year.

The West has seen bad winters just like we went through. Deer herds have suffered because of them since the dawn of time and they have recovered. We dont need knee jerk reactions to save them.