Antler Point Restriction

[Hnthrdr]

I think we all want good hunting and to come across big bucks. Outside of very limited quotas, sometimes the stars align and we have a great run of years where there are more on offer. There’s been great years in the Wyoming range, most of colorado, Utah, etc. but they don’t last forever. And I also do not think they are gone forever.

I just don’t believe there is some magic legislation that can artificially achieve those goals..it’s too complex and Mother Nature is ultimately steering the ship with providing good conditions for fawn recruitment and population growth.

I think we as humans need to do everything we can to optimize habitat so that we can capitalize on good environmental conditions..tinkering with buck harvest might help in some small ways year to year when it comes to seeing big deer..but we want and need big healthy populations where opportunity and quality are both there.

I think what we can do to help is hammer predators (where legal) during fawning. Trapping, spring bear, and lion hunting go further to help the deer in the habitat we have left if we can assist with those fawns getting past their most vulnerable month or two

 

[wyodog]

I sometimes hunt an area that had 3 points or better regulations. the area ended up having a bunch big 2 points in it. I fear that having a 4 points or better area would lead to a bunch of 3-point deer. i believe that in the long run it hurts the gene pool.

 

[Axlrod]

There is an area in SW Montana, that had 4 point + restrictions along with closing before the rut, for a couple decades. The result wasn't an increase in herd size or antler size. So it was scraped. One consequence was an increase in older 3 point bucks. They were off limits to hunters, so they survived to pass on their genetics.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I sometimes hunt an area that had 3 points or better regulations. the area ended up having a bunch big 2 points in it. I fear that having a 4 points or better area would lead to a bunch of 3-point deer. i believe that in the long run it hurts the gene pool.

This is EXACTLY what has happened at my place in MO. The area has been notorious for bucks with either one or no brow tines. I have no clue why, never had seen this before. I had one very large 3 point with no brow tines walk by my stand every morning like clock work and he was off limits this last season. This year I think I might take a small bucket of rocks with me and just throw them at him.

 

[realunlucky]

Yea, if there is data that would be interesting, mostly because once a doe recruits from a fawn to yearling her annual mortality probability is constant throughout her life.

I did'nt see the actual data but this was part of the survey utah sent me.

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[king402]

I did'nt see the actual data but this was part of the survey utah sent me.

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Thanks for sharing. Good info.

 

[willfrye027]

I did'nt see the actual data but this was part of the survey utah sent me.

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Maybe I heard it on a podcast and it’s not published research yet? Thanks for posting that. It’s all very interesting stuff.

 

[neil.hansford]

When I hunted whitetail back east, we had restrictions on bucks, but it wasn't point based. They needed to meet two of three criteria based on spread, main beam length, and maybe mass(can't quite remember). I'm sure it still put some pressure on the younger deer with good genetics, but also helped cull some of the older bucks without good genetics.

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[Andyram_18]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

You just convinced me to be okay with people shooting forkies. I’ve never heard it like that…. Haha

 

[willfrye027]

You just convinced me to be okay with people shooting forkies. I’ve never heard it like that…. Haha

Take it with a grain of salt because I’ve killed my fair share

 

[Andyram_18]

Take it with a grain of salt because I’ve killed my fair share

lol. I’m not keeping track

 

[wyo2track]

Living here in Region H with G right out my back door, I'll say the 4pt APR will help bring more young bucks into the general population, but not much more than what the 3 pt APR already did. I wish it was still only limited to a 3 APR then by 2026 season end it. There are alot of young bucks 1.5 and 2.5 yrs old taken every year by youth hunters. That will not change as youth hunters can still take any buck deer. Those young deer next to the roads are not any safer than they were with no APR in place....and that's great. I know of several areas where dad will have their kids into the last couple days of season or that last weekend to kill small bucks. That's fine. Most guys hunting these regions have no interest in killing a little 2 or 3 point buck and packing it out several miles. A 16" 3x4 buck is no safer than a 16" 4x4. Hunters that really want to fill their tag are going to be looking hard for that 4 point side. And most those adult hunters that only want a legal buck, really don't want to work to hard for it, you won't see most these hunters miles from the pickup. Husbands are telling wives, 'shoot that little buck, that'll be an easy pack out'. I look at the theory that APR's add more pressure on killing more mature bucks in two ways. First, any significant added pressure is really only isolated to the areas with easiest access, but in those areas the hunting pressure is so great already that its tough to find bucks with or without APR's. Second, the vast majority, 85 to 90% of bucks will never be of 'trophy' quality, high scoring deer anyways. There are so many 4 to 8 year old 4 pt buck deer that never will grow much more than 170". Who cares if we are putting more pressure on the majority of deer that will never be high scoring deer anyways. Don't we strive to kill the oldest age class deer we can find? But, oh god, that same now 6 year old 4 pt that has only been 160" for the last 3 years is getting past up again because he's going to 'blow up' any year now.....but will be dead on the winter range in another 2 years...lol

There is so much self regulation with buck deer hunting in most of our areas and the biologists know it. The 4pt APR is really just a social decision to show the public something is being done to try to increase buck-doe ratios. After the winter of 2016-17, the 3 pt APR went into place and within 2 yrs buck-doe ratios were in the 40's....overall however, a really young buck population though. I really think the Wyoming deer survey should ask these questions to the public. Let's see where that young buck harvest is coming from. I've seen some dandy, slick no eye guard 3x3 bucks with 5 to 6" bases and 22 to 28" wide frames that will not be legal for harvest with the 4 pt APR. Those are the bucks I don't mind finding at the end of the season when I haven't yet found those better scoring deer, they're big 250+lb bucks. I'd expect the 4pt APR to only be around a couple years. Here's one of those big 3 pt deer that is off limits now because of the 4pt APR. Look at the bases on this bruiser..., but oh gees, would I shoot him opening weekend if he was legal...nah, need to keep looking for a higher scoring deer...so, I'll get my 13 yr old son to shoot him!

 

[Rich M]

Lots of folks want a trophy buck - few are willing to put the effort and sacrifice into it. They go in wanting a trophy buck and feel that everyone should be hunting trophy bucks until they get a real feel for it and then cheap out with a young buck that needs to grow up to be a trophy buck. Then they say they want to come back and shoot a trophy buck next time.

They ultimately hurt their chances for getting a big one the next trip. It is a circle that is hard to break.

If you take the trophy aspect out of the equation, everything is fine.

BUT the ugly elephant is that most folks want a trophy buck.

So what's the answer?

Have units requiring that folks shoot a 150-inch or better buck. The lil ones will grow up and lose the milk ring from their lips and the aspiring "trophy hunters" will learn how to be trophy hunters. Those units will turn into the preferred hunting units from deer numbers and antler size.

Until the size of the bucks are regulated, folks are gonna keep shooting themselves in the foot cause it feels good and they had to bring something home and and and.

 

[CorbLand]

Lots of folks want a trophy buck - few are willing to put the effort and sacrifice into it. They go in wanting a trophy buck and feel that everyone should be hunting trophy bucks until they get a real feel for it and then cheap out with a young buck that needs to grow up to be a trophy buck. Then they say they want to come back and shoot a trophy buck next time.

They ultimately hurt their chances for getting a big one the next trip. It is a circle that is hard to break.

If you take the trophy aspect out of the equation, everything is fine.

BUT the ugly elephant is that most folks want a trophy buck.

So what's the answer?

Have units requiring that folks shoot a 150-inch or better buck. The lil ones will grow up and lose the milk ring from their lips and the aspiring "trophy hunters" will learn how to be trophy hunters. Those units will turn into the preferred hunting units from deer numbers and antler size.

Until the size of the bucks are regulated, folks are gonna keep shooting themselves in the foot cause it feels good and they had to bring something home and and and.

Most people couldn’t tell you a 150 from 140 or even a 130. The same thing would happen as APRs with people shooting and leaving bucks.

Whether we like it or not, letting people decide what their tag means to them is the right answer. If you want to hold out for big bucks, then do it. If you want to shoot the first one you see, do it. Let people decide for themselves.

Now, the guys I have a problem with are the ones that shoot a two point 15 minutes into opening morning and then bitch there aren’t any big bucks anymore.

As hunters we are having an identity crisis. If we were talking on a PETA board, we would all be saying how “we hunt for the meat” blah blah blah. Then we turn around and tell people they can’t kill something because it’s not big enough.

 

[lonedave]

I’ve come to believe that maybe we’re going at it wrong. Rather than limit what deer are legal, maybe we should have limits on equipment….maybe open sights only for modern rifles, go back to percussion, flintlock, or matchlock for muzzleloaders, and maybe very reduced let-off compounds, recurve, longbow, or selfbows for archery. This coming from an older guy with eyes that don’t work well with open sights and who could never shoot a bow of any kind without severe target panic. Also from a guy who doesn’t like to limit hunters to draw only tags or smaller “eating size” bucks for those that want to just eat venison. Just some thoughts….carry on.

 

[CMF]

The issue with an APR is that it puts more pressure on the mature deer in hopes of saving some younger deer that may or may not even make it to maturity or have the ability to ever develop into a trophy class animal. It also puts a lot of pressure on the younger deer that actually meet the APR but are really the ones with the most potential to grow big.

This is exactly what happens. Mississippi tried the antler point rule but then realized this.

Now it's based on spread or beam length and supposedly we have the highest harvest of 3.5+yo bucks of any state. It may be the case on the qdma properties, but I guarantee it ain't the case on public land.

 

[Rich M]

I can see more gun restrictions in the future. Just gonna take a little time.

As for knowing the legal size, folks will need to be educated in what to look for. ARs are very common in WT areas cause people whine about not getting quality bucks. Down here it is 3 pts on one side or 10-inch main beam. This is on a 90-100# deer.

 

[CMP70306]

This is the best argument I have for AR which was implemented here in PA in 2002. Our family has been hunting the same properties in PA since the early 80’s. They shot dozens of bucks in that time span but it took my Dad 20 years to get an 8pt big enough to get mounted. It was pretty much once every 5 to 10 years somebody would get a big buck, everything else was spikes, forkies and basket bucks.

I started hunting in 2004 and the buck on the left I shot in 2007. It was my first buck and considered a monster at the time, one of those 5 to 10 year bucks. Since then we have gotten at least one buck that big at our camp almost every year.

The buck on right I shot last year, it is my personal best and among the biggest ever taken off the property. These bucks are becoming much more common and bigger ones have been seen and killed in the area.



Additionally back in 2021 I took a picture of a buck that was pushed past my stand on a drive, judging by the facial markings and the fact that it is the same stand I am pretty sure they are the same buck. Pre AR he would have been killed right there.

 

[LostWapiti]

Washington has antler point restrictions and the hunting is terrible for the most part now. I used to think it made sense but it doesn't. We just need to keep encouraging people to let young deer walk if they want to see big ones. I think the worst deer to shoot is a 2.5 year old that is a 3 point. He's very likely to survive to the following year and will probably be a 4 point.

If people just want a deer then let then shoot little forkys as there's tons of them and like said above, there will be more next year.

 

[CMF]

Additionally back in 2021 I took a picture of a buck that was pushed past my stand on a drive, judging by the facial markings and the fact that it is the same stand I am pretty sure they are the same buck. Pre AR he would have been killed right there.

Your buck on the left and the spike could possibly be the same age, highlighting the problem with antler restrictions. You end up letting lesser deer grow and killing off better deer before their prime.

Of course, you will inevitably get bigger deer by letting spikes and younger bucks walk which is why you've seen an improvement. I think the spread/beam length protects more young deer and ones with good potential. Both methods inevitably protect older bucks that don't have the potential and I think the regulations should allow harvest based on age class, but I'm sure that's too hard to enforce.

The very first deer I shot with a bow was a 1.5yo basket rack 10pt, he was only 10.5" wide. He still would be legal with our 10/13" spread/beam rule now, but he would have been too close to make the call to shoot. That is the deer that has the potential to be a monster.